2010.11.05 06:00 - Magic of Time Session

Magic of Time Session

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Pema Pera: Hi Eliza and Yaku, and hi Bruce!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza, Pema, and Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharry :)
Sharry Ragu: hi Eliza, all :))
Eliza Madrigal: And Baeric, nice to see you both again
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sharry. Hi, Baeric.
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Maxine :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey baeric,max,sharry
Baeric Constantine: Greetings
Maxine Walden: hi, everyone
Baeric Constantine: how are we all?
Baeric Constantine: Thank you Yakku
Sharry Ragu: may I bring a friend?
Eliza Madrigal: of course Sharry
Sharry Ragu: thank you :))
Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
Sharry Ragu: thanks for the reminder Yakuzza, I really appreciate it
Pema Pera: and hi Sharry!
Sharry Ragu: hello Pema :))
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Bleu, love your free-spirit hair
Sharry Ragu waves a hello to Bleu :))
Bleu Oleander: ty Maxine :))
Maxine Walden: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu. Hi, Frederica.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fredrica :) I'll IM you with a note about the group. Welcome
Frederica Lexenstar: thank you :-)
Frederica Lexenstar: I invited another friend
Pema Pera: hi Frederica, welcome!
Baeric Constantine: hi Boney
Sharry Ragu: hi Boney :))
boney Mosely: hi sharry:)
Baeric Constantine: Mmm
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey all new
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Boney.
boney Mosely: hi bruce hi all
Pema Pera: shall we start?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boney :)
Pema Pera: Would somebody volunteer to post the log?
Pema Pera: Today is the second round of discussions of chapter 8: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/8._Play_as_Being
Pema Pera: Thanks a lot, Bleu!
Maxine Walden: thanks, bleu
Bleu Oleander: yw:)
Maxine Walden: :)
Pema Pera: As usual, we'll also talk about the reports, that have been accumulated on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2f%2f11%2f%2f05%3a_Reports
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Bleu :)
Pema Pera: Would anybody like to comment on either the chapter or the reports/
Pema Pera: ?
Fefonz Quan: Hello ll
Maxine Walden: It is quite lovely to see the different trajectories, paths, that the reports/explorations take...
Pema Pera: hi Fef!
Maxine Walden: hi Fef
Fefonz Quan: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Fef.
Maxine Walden: and it is interesting that 'roles' seems to take so much attention
Pema Pera: yes!!
Maxine Walden: when I thought that our exploration was to appreciate and then set aside roles
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I've just reread all of the reports . . . and find that several of us seem to find "dropping" roles to be a painful thing.
Maxine Walden: agree, Bruce
Fefonz Quan: that's not surprising Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: wondering if butterflies experience pain when they drop the cocoon role, as fetuses experience pain when they drop the fetus role, etc etc etc
Pema Pera: yes, and yes it is painful, in many ways, Bruce!
Pema Pera: hi Zen!
Sharry Ragu: hi Zen :))
Eliza Madrigal: yes I appreciated your expression of discomfort with 'role' of fetus, Bruce. It causes one to stretch the exploration prebirth... in a way
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen and Fef :)
Zen Arado: Hi all
Maxine Walden: part of the pain being loss, uncertainty, the unknown and unfamiliar
Bruce Mowbray: G'day, Zen.
Bleu Oleander: one first has to recognize a role to drop it and then wear it lightly?

--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: like being born into the world is getting up in the morning :)
Maxine Walden: :), Eliza
Fefonz Quan: I would say the fetus has no concept of role, so for him getting born is just another experience
Maxine Walden: the next 'now', Fef?
Fefonz Quan: kind of Maxine
Bruce Mowbray thinks: That "just another experience" is the most traumatic event in the fetus' whole existence, so far.
Pema Pera: I really appreciate what you wrote in your report, Bruce! Absolutely, it's not at all easy to know how to deal with a situation like an abused child . . . .
Fefonz Quan: indeed it is, but not because of dropping, more because of squizzing :)
Baeric Constantine: I don't think it is easy for anyone to deal with abuse....
Bruce Mowbray: well, there are a whole lot of folks living PTSD roles out there. . .
Pema Pera: yet, no matter how terrible a situation is, the first thing to do is to accept the situation as it is, in the sense of acknowleding what is the case, and then to figure out what to do with it
Pema Pera: so I didn't imply to use the word "role" to make light of any situation . . .
Sharry Ragu nods to Pema
Pema Pera: yet even in a terrible situation in principle at least we have a choice as to the extent to which we are willing to go along with playing the victim role
Eliza Madrigal: for me it was a consideration of how 'first thing' I begin to form the identity /body of the day to step into... some of the things are choices but a lot that we don't 'know' (like the fetus maybe) that we're putting on? that comes with?
Bruce Mowbray: In some sense, we are ALL "abused children," and will have a great challenge in accepting the situations of our lives. . .
Pema Pera: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I related strongly to Riddle's "loss" of his daughter to the freshman class at Berkeley. . .
Maxine Walden: all intense experience feels assaultive to some extent,
Pema Pera: at first they are not conscious choices, for sure, but in due time we can wake up to the fact that we have choices, after all
Bruce Mowbray thinks: Where IS riddle, anyway??
Pema Pera: a riddle . . .
Maxine Walden: :) its a Riddle, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: :) quite early for riddle
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: rezzing somewhere
Pema Pera: he may be asleep
Sharry Ragu: in accepting our circumstances we acknowledge our responsibilities perhaps?
Pema Pera: 6:20 for him :)
Pema Pera: yes, I think so, Sharry, as a starting point
Yakuzza Lethecus: well, glad maxine is an early bird
Maxine Walden: :)
Bleu Oleander: for me too :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Baeric Constantine: can circuymstances be acknowledged without accepting our responibilities?
Maxine Walden: yes, bleu, you as well
Pema Pera: I'm a late bird here in Japan . . .
Pema Pera: night owl
Eliza Madrigal smiles and happy to have early birds here chiming in
Eliza Madrigal: late birds too, hah
Pema Pera: good question, Baeric!
Sharry Ragu is a late bird ;)
Pema Pera: (and that after a cheerful dinner with colleagues where everyone pours your beer glass full after a few sips, so I have no idea how much I have drunk....)
Pema Pera: (one of those "charming" Japanese customs)
Bruce Mowbray: Seeing things as they are is the first responsible step. . .
Eliza Madrigal: a way of dropping the roles of the day
Maxine Walden: beer helps to drop roles perhaps, Pema?
Eliza Madrigal: or at least making them fuzzier
Fefonz Quan: to enroll?
Pema Pera: :-)
Sharry Ragu: to accept circumstances is to see it as it is.. rather than wanting something it is not...
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: "enroll" = to slip into a roll? (@ Fef)
Bleu Oleander: interesting, some roles help/make us drop other roles ...
Eliza Madrigal: acceptance and responsibility does seem key
Baeric Constantine: Is there then confusion between inhibitions and roles, if beer (alcohol) causes them to be dropped?
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Bleu... help us loosen
Fefonz Quan: agree with sharyy, acceptance is a key, not wanting to run away to another time or place
Pema Pera: I'm sure they are intertwined, Baeric
Sharry Ragu nods to Fefonz and waves hello :))
Baeric Constantine: I can accept that a certain set of circumstances occur to me, with me, by me, yet abdicate my responsibility by 'blaming' another.
Eliza Madrigal: As Bruce mentioned fear is often tied up with dropping roles... for me certainly... that the world will fall apart if I don't hold it up like I (think) I have been doing perhaps... to linger in openness longer takes a leap sometimes
Pema Pera: yes, that's why it's good to practice for just a few seconds at a time
Fefonz Quan: yes, it's interesting how blaming someone for something help us relaxing/feel better...
Zen Arado: adopting roles seems a way of avoiding our 'real' self?
Bruce Mowbray: For me, "playing a roll" is slipping into another mental state -- and Playing as Being is shifting into a roll that includes all possible states.
Sharry Ragu agrees with Zen
Baeric Constantine agrees with Zen too
Eliza Madrigal: why would we want to do that? :)
Baeric Constantine: role adoption can be used as a facade
Zen Arado: yes - strange that we do
Frederica Lexenstar: if our self is not our roles, what is it?
Fefonz Quan: yet in a way, while we are functionng in a certain role, wouldn't we want to take it seriously (not too,much, but...)
Bruce Mowbray disagrees with Zen on that -- sees sfiting into rolls as a vehicle for accepting many parts of ourselves.
Baeric Constantine: I think, Fred, that they purpose is to get to the raw esence of being
Bleu Oleander: is our "real" self a role too?
Sharry Ragu: I think it may tie in with Bruce's fear earlier.. we adopt a role as it gives us a map.. without the map we are freeforming.. and that is scary!! :))
Zen Arado: seems about fear yes
Fefonz Quan: Frederica, is ourself IS our roles - than it dies every time we change roles...
Fefonz Quan: if*

--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Do ideas "die" every time we change our thoughts?
Baeric Constantine: Taking a role of leadership may not be on the same level as that of motherhood... some roles can be stepped away from while I think others cannot
Fefonz Quan nods to Baeric, good pont
Baeric Constantine: Ideas die only when we losae direction maybe
Eliza Madrigal: agreewith taking our parts seriously.... yet seriously may imply allowing more 'breath' or space into them
Zen Arado: maybe role playing narrows the range of decisions we have to make rather than the scariness of being wide open to everything?
Maxine Walden: different levels of complexity re roles, but for me the question is whether I can slip into feeling defined, even enslaved by a role, or have the freedom and space to step out of it
Eliza Madrigal: to take them seriously means to allow them to be mroe than we 'think' sometimes
Sharry Ragu consults with Puff
Bleu Oleander: :) @ Sharry
Fefonz Quan: (Puff?)
Baeric Constantine: Puff the magic dragon
Sharry Ragu: Puff the Magic Dragon :)) he died apparently
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Maxine
Zen Arado: lives in a tree ?
Fefonz Quan: oh... :)
Baeric Constantine lives under a tree
Bleu Oleander: changed his role?
Bruce Mowbray will send Blub to look for Puff.
Zen Arado: :)
Sharry Ragu: by the sea guys.. common LOL
Zen Arado: in Honnalee?
Sharry Ragu: yes! :))
Sharry Ragu giggles
Zen Arado: searches memory bank
Baeric Constantine: Honalulu mor like
Bruce Mowbray: Roles are very important in ritual. . . especially religious rituals.
Zen Arado: and remembers Peter Paul and Mary :)
Baeric Constantine: Gilly Gilly Ossenfeffer Katzenellenbogen By The Sea
Zen Arado: think you spelt it wrong Baeric :)
Baeric Constantine: LOL
Baeric Constantine: wrong is spelt W-R-O-N-G though
Zen Arado: but gives benefit of doubt
Sharry Ragu: cannot a role be as being as the self?
Bruce Mowbray: spend any time with an Imam, priest, bishop, or Zen master . . . and you better remember your role and their roles are significantly different.
Bruce Mowbray: I've gotten into a lot of trouble because I thought the "religious roles" didn't really matter so much.
Zen Arado: humans love hierarchies....
Maxine Walden: anyone have success in the loosening of roles in the transition between sleeping and wakening, as Pema had suggested?
Pema Pera: hi Darren!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Darren :)
Sharry Ragu smiles and waves to Darren
Eliza Madrigal: not sure about success but certainly lingering longer
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Baeric Constantine: Without being disrespectful, but it really matters little to me, be they a guru, priest, iman, Queen or King... they all still wipe their bums like everyone else.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I loved the sleeping/awakening role play. . .
Fefonz Quan: mostly Maxine, apart from the times the last intense role crowles to my dreams :)
Zen Arado: mt Zen teacher has us working on a koan 'Every day is a good day' and we are supposed to say that on waking each day
Pema Pera: can you say more, Eliza and Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Darren.
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_ Baeric
Zen Arado: Hi Darren :)
Darren Islar: hi :)
Baeric Constantine: ? fefonz?
Eliza Madrigal: the lingering 'in between' roles... extending that can be quite freeing
Fefonz Quan: (liked the bum wiping)
Baeric Constantine: :)
Sharry Ragu: I have returned to work after a holiday.. I have found upon my return, that my perception and drive in my role has changed.. I am not as 'formed' in my job role..
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I have been sleep-challenged for about two decades. . . and being able to RELAX into sleep and RELAX into wakefulness is a real blessing for me.
Eliza Madrigal: the morning/evening times are wonderful to sort of stay in an openness not available when off to this or that
Pema Pera: (I guess you have to be really very high up in the hierarchy to have your bum wiped for you . . . )
Sharry Ragu: that has been interesting to ponder on
Eliza Madrigal: relax into wakefulness... mmm, nice Bruce
Zen Arado: you notice how quickly your mind starts to boot up its old familiar problems
Sharry Ragu: hehe Pema :))
Baeric Constantine: LOL Perma
Bruce Mowbray: [Just looked outside and it is SNOWING here in southern Ohio -- our first of the season!]
Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen
Maxine Walden: ah, welcome to winter, Bruce
Baeric Constantine: You may keep the snow BRuce
Sharry Ragu: yay Bruce!! :))
Baeric Constantine: with pleasure
Baeric Constantine: :D
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice image Bruce... relaxing into wakefulness and the snow begins to fall
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: oh how nice Bruce
Fefonz Quan: / won't fit there with his sandals...
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: are you attached to your sandals Fef? hehe
Baeric Constantine never worn sandals never will
Bruce Mowbray playing roles (especially hierarchical ones) might be an obsession with control/power.
Fefonz Quan: not too much, i have velcro! ;-)
Baeric Constantine: LOL at velcro
Maxine Walden: :)) fef
Eliza Madrigal: that would actually be a good example... hah, if one didn' enjoy snow because they couldn't take off identification with sandals :)
Sharry Ragu: the obsession with control/power is merely a reflection of fear I think Bruce
Baeric Constantine: and white sox?
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Sharry.
Zen Arado: but we feel more comfortable if there is 'someone in charge'?
Sharry Ragu: yes.. fear and white sox
Sharry Ragu: lol
Bruce Mowbray: strange how people in power are so afraid, huh?
Fefonz Quan: IN A WAY, WHEN YOU HAEV MORE POWER THERE ARE MORE THINGS TO BE AFRAID OF
Fefonz Quan: (sorry for the caps)
Bruce Mowbray: "Freedom's just another word for nothing [no more roles?] left to lose."
Zen Arado: 'uneasy lies the head that wears the crown'
Bruce Mowbray: "The world's a stage. . . "
Zen Arado: :)
Sharry Ragu: I liked the movie "The Last Warrior" where the Emperor feared his power..
Zen Arado: and we are all ust quoters...
Maxine Walden: Actually, Fef, glad for the caps. I agree, that when we slip into certain roles, such as power, we automatically expect the rest of the world to be in that same space, operate by the same perspective
Maxine Walden: and so our 'role' shapes or defines the 'world' we experience
Sharry Ragu agrees with Maxine
Eliza Madrigal grins at Zen
Zen Arado: don't we kind of build a rolew over time?
Maxine Walden: and we may not easily see that we can change roles and thus worlds
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes Maxine!

--BELL--
Baeric Constantine: two kinds of leadership - top down, bottom up... bottom up is the best way in my eyes
Fefonz Quan: yes, when we are kings, others are potential opzition/assasins, when we are just sitting drinking our beer, other could be just friends
Maxine Walden: :)
Maxine Walden: agree
Baeric Constantine: I would rather not have power.
Eliza Madrigal: I like your question Zen.. it has that sense of watching how we step into our roles... if we could linger in the openness in a kind of slow motion longer.. maybe we'd see ourselves putting on things that don't 'have' to
Fefonz Quan: It does bother me, that after we dissolve (not to say reconstruct) all our roles, we are left with nothing to stand on
Darren Islar: power can be used in different ways
Zen Arado: groundlessness Fef
Darren Islar: power can be used to serve well
Sharry Ragu: I think, if one is comfortable with power, one is comfortable with responsibility..
Baeric Constantine: better to be raised by peers than to raise ourselves
Darren Islar: right Sharry :)
Maxine Walden: unless, Fef, we can appreciate the vastness as a kind of universal 'ground'
Eliza Madrigal: :) my kids know me better now than when I was playing 'role' of "good mom" according to the best script I could find
Zen Arado: good excuse for an extra little time in bed Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera: Fef, I think the point is not to dissolve roles, but to wear them more lightly, as we have often sid
Zen Arado: sleeping role
Darren Islar smiles at Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: play dream roles then, which are easy to slip on and off
Bruce Mowbray hopes Eliza is feeling better soon.
Eliza Madrigal: :)Thanks, I'm much better today
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: (as evidenced by over typing) :)
Fefonz Quan: I know Pema, but this is a very subtle place to be, very fine balance. much easier to detach when you drop somthing, much harder to not-hold, but not-throw either
Bruce Mowbray finds his dream rolls almost impossible to slip on and off -- They seem to have a life of their own.
Zen Arado: roles offer control then?
Fefonz Quan: controles
Zen Arado: a way of reducing uncertainty?
Bruce Mowbray: boundaries.
Fefonz Quan nods to Zen
Sharry Ragu: perhaps roles offer safety, yes Bruce, boundaries
Zen Arado: restricting life in a way?
Baeric Constantine: perhaps not always countrols, but guidelines, not necssarily boundaries but could include them,
Baeric Constantine: could be restricting but not necessarily
Fefonz Quan: in a way it is much more easy to act in a restricted environment
Eliza Madrigal: there is something wonderful in this discussion about fully accepting and surrendering and releasing not being in opposition
Baeric Constantine: everything can be eaten but not everything is beneficial... type thing (i.e. poison, it can be eaten, bnut its not beneficial)
Baeric Constantine: but*
Sharry Ragu: I think that is the paradox.. we need a sense of certainty.. but absolute certainty is an illusion..
Fefonz Quan: a famous experiment shows that people wrote songs much easier when they had hard rules to follow, than when they could do any thing they wanted
Zen Arado: yes - a need for structure
Zen Arado: a framework
Fefonz Quan: framework, exactly.
Bleu Oleander: restrictions can force creativity
Baeric Constantine: People often posit that freedom is a 'place' without rules, but that is anarchy not freedom.... rules bring freedom, but rules are for guidance not necessarily a stick for beating
Zen Arado: never thought of that
Fefonz Quan: that['s what makes Pema's initiative so heroic - to frame theat that can't be frames into a book
Zen Arado: like a child feels better if it has rules?
Baeric Constantine: Necessity is the mother of invention, Bleu
Baeric Constantine: aye, I think so, Zen
Bruce Mowbray: If you get stuck in an elevator for a weekend, you'll get VERY creative.
Sharry Ragu: know the rules so you can break them properly :))
Eliza Madrigal: well it depends on where the rules come from too...
Eliza Madrigal: kids know when rules are arbitrary or unquestioned
Baeric Constantine: Agreed Eliza
Pema Pera: thanks, Fef :-)
Darren Islar: I agree Baeric (he said a bit late :))
Baeric Constantine: All is good Darren
Zen Arado: lots of rules are unspoken
Baeric Constantine: I blame lag my self
Eliza Madrigal: my self is laggy too
Zen Arado: rules of conduct
Baeric Constantine: rules by convention, Zen
Eliza Madrigal: heheh, on a time delay, antiquated
Zen Arado: we know them intuitively
Sharry Ragu: is it unspoken rules that form roles??
Zen Arado: or just copy others behaviour
Fefonz Quan: do we Zen?
Bleu Oleander: culture, society creates roles
Zen Arado: just musing
Zen Arado: think we often do imitate others
Sharry Ragu: how is it that culture, society forms the roles?
Darren Islar: yes, rules exist a lot of time because we take over patterns form our parents
Fefonz Quan: reminds me on a thought i had yesterday - i have a new nephew, born 6 days ago, and he makes very expressive faces - that surely i didn't learn from others-
Eliza Madrigal: I do... rehearsal is quite a powerful way to step out of roles...
Baeric Constantine: culture and society is based upon and created from a need to be together, and thus rules become necessary, so I think unspoken rules do help towards creating roles.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe as bleu said using one to loosen another
Bleu Oleander: expectations of how we should exist within our cultures, societies
Fefonz Quan: so there are comlex behaviours we are born with
Fefonz Quan: and maybe rules too
Zen Arado: others expect us to act in certain ways
Sharry Ragu: ahh.. Bleu, I am seeing the expectations as rules ;)
Zen Arado: can be very forceful but invisible...
Darren Islar: yes, but sometimes rules get in the way, because nobody is questioning them anymore

--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: I'm about to claim the next session :)
Darren Islar: being aware of rules and roles, makes building a society easier
Baeric Constantine: If rules are going to oppose natural life then perhaps the rule is wrong
Sharry Ragu: exactly, which is why they are so powerful, as Darren pointed to
Fefonz Quan: i can't rule that out Darren :)