2010.11.18 07:00 - Poison and equanimity

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Sartre Placebo: good morning storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm, Sartre :)
Storm Nordwind: Greetings Sartre, Eliza :)
--BELL--
Sartre Placebo: hey bruce
Storm Nordwind: You made it from the other sim - welcome Bruce! ;)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza, Storm, and Sartre.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :) I hope you are beginnin to feel better
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you -- just a tad bit better. . .
Eliza Madrigal: :) it is a beginnnig
Bruce Mowbray: Were you also sick for a while recently, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... seems many people this year
Eliza Madrigal: and my son has a persistent cough unfortunately too

Sartre is in two places in virtual reality at the same time.

Sartre Placebo: anyone would like to listen to a talk on lack on morality in virtual worlds ?
Bruce Mowbray: yes. . . I seem to recall that you couldn't get a flu shot because you were not well enough. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'd like that Sartre -- Is there a link?
Sartre Placebo: actually that tolk would be running right now at slactions
Sartre Placebo: started 2 min ago
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- Mmmmm... don't really want to leave the fountain right now.
Bruce Mowbray: Sorry to hear about your son, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: I think 'lack of morality' in sl sounds like too easy of a discussion
Storm Nordwind: Do you think there is a lack of morality in virtual worlds ?
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to be pretty well spread around -- I spoke yesterday with a friend in Alaska, and he's having the exact same symptoms that I have. . .
Sartre Placebo: well, i am curious how the alk will be, she´s talking about the cyber other right now
Bruce Mowbray: What fascinated me about "morality" in VR is how it seems to emerge to fit the circumstances...
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps you should be there Sartre and be our spy ;)
Sartre Placebo: i hope you´ll get better
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred
Bruce Mowbray ponders "the cyber other."
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Sartre -- I really appreciate that.
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Al!
Sartre Placebo: i am there right now :)
Storm Nordwind: Ah - of course! :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehhe, sartre is our parallel worlds time overlapping traveler
Alfred Kelberry: hello :)
Alfred Kelberry: small circle today
Sartre Placebo: hey alf
Storm Nordwind: Hi Alf.
Alfred Kelberry: yaku? :)
Sartre Placebo: jep
Alfred Kelberry: ok :)
Bruce Mowbray loves Sartre's diversificated-ness.
Storm Nordwind: Sorry Eliza and Bruce - I wasn't ignoring your problems - I got side-tracked

Morality in Second Life.

Eliza Madrigal: I've actually found sl to be more moral in some ways, as it seems people sometimes learn that there are less restrictions on honesty...
Eliza Madrigal: and being able to act out more ideals they connect differently... strangeto describe
Eliza Madrigal: No worries of course Storm :)
Alfred Kelberry: *notes eliza is wearing glasses and has dark black hair* it suits you, eliza :)
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps they feel safer Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Alf :)
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe, yes... if one feels they have a choice then they try out more things and it seems to me people, when given choices, are very giving...

Bruce refers to "The Three Poisons" - a Buddhist term. There are several definitions of what these are. One is ignorance, attachment and craving. Another is self-grasping ignorance, hatred and desirous attachment. Bruce introduces us to his interpretation.

Bruce Mowbray: I findit interesting to observe how the "3 Poisons" seem to operate differently in SL. What attracts me, or seems aversive to me, or I'm indifferent about -- just a bit off the ground in SL as contrasted with RL.
Eliza Madrigal: yes interesting
Eliza Madrigal: the word morality is a funny one....
Eliza Madrigal: almost never hear myself use it
Bruce Mowbray: also --- because there are few if any restrictions of money (and other RL contraints) the whole "attachment" thing is a bit different here.
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Bruce, that seems key
Eliza Madrigal: being constantly aware that the make-up is not 'lasting'
Bruce Mowbray: It's easier to get attached to things in SL - - because there are few RL "pricetags" --
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe that's why some are so opposed to the whole idea of virtual reality.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, seems too slippery

Attachments in Second Life.

Storm Nordwind: What kinds of things do you believe people get attached to in SL, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: all sorts of addictive behaviors, Storm.
Bruce Mowbray: I've been watching the "slipperyness" of this in my own evolution during the past eight months.
Alfred Kelberry: i think same addictions as in rl - people, places, hobbies (scripting, building)
Storm Nordwind: Would it be a rude question to ask for an example Bruce? :)
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Al, but for me -- living so far away for the "action" in RL - and also having fairly severe financial constraints - well, it's a LOT easier and less expensive to get attached to things in SL . . . They are simply easier to obtain and get stuck in.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- not rude at all!
Bruce Mowbray: At first I went to several meditation groups every day -- because the closest of those in RL was 50 miles away.
Bruce Mowbray: I was starving for a "tangible" sangha.
Alfred Kelberry: ah, yes, i see that, bruce
Bruce Mowbray: and they were everywhere in SL.
Bruce Mowbray: Then I got into nudist beaches, philosophical lectures, science lectures. . . and on and on. . .
Bruce Mowbray: all being things I couldn't do (or find) in RL.
Bruce Mowbray: So Sl has been a candy store of options and access..
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind nods
Bruce Mowbray: OH! I didn't have my sounds turned on and didn't hear the bell -- SRY!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: You are quite forgiven dear Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: (It's turned on now.)
Alfred Kelberry: bruce, in this sense, i like to think of sl as an extension of rl. you still wish the same things, but it allows you to do more with less.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm guess that there are literally thousands of folks like my primary. . . who find themselves too isolated in RL to find what they "need." So, they turn to SL to find it.
Storm Nordwind: Is there not a difference, however, between a thirsty man and an addict?
Bruce Mowbray: sure.
Bruce Mowbray: I try to stay thirsty.
Alfred Kelberry: :)

Trading in the inner economy.

Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of interesting to see an inner exchange economy... of trading in some habits for others, etc....how we 'spend' time...
Bruce Mowbray listens intently to all.
Eliza Madrigal: In SL we can cycle through faster perhaps and come to face a kind of futility, and maybe then begin to play more...
Storm Nordwind: At first that can lead to an escape from RL. But then we return to RL with a clear perspective and a sense of lightness
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Really good point, Storm.
Bruce Mowbray: Also, I'm finding that my intentionality in RL is enhanced by the exercise of intentionality in SL.
Storm Nordwind nods
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Bruce Mowbray: I can decide which airport I wish to "land" in -- and then I can make that "landing" with focus and precision. . .

Bert arrives to find only eight cushions laid out for this session.

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert!
Alfred Kelberry: storm, well, how else can you sit in pagoda with several people hundreds miles away and share thoughts? :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah - cool - small circle - hi all :-)
Alfred Kelberry: berty :)
Storm Nordwind: I prefer to use the word "intimate" rather than "small" ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: okay. i try to hold that in ma mind storm ... :-)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bruce Mowbray: There -- that's sort of an example of how "ethics" (or at least 'norms') work their way into SL. . .
Bruce Mowbray: a gentle but persuasive shift in how we observe a "small" or "intimate" setting. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and pretty soon, some "ethic" begins to emerge out of that perception. . .
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
Bruce Mowbray loves this stuff.
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Storm Nordwind: I wonder how many take it seriously though!

Alfred - whose avatar is a handful of boxes - has a request about the pavilion seating.

Alfred Kelberry: um, sorry, storm... on this "small" comment, i'd like to ask a question :)
Storm Nordwind: Go ahead please Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: is it possible to have a seat for tinies in pagoda?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: aahh - cool !
Bertram Jacobus: THAT would be cool ! :-)
Bruce Mowbray supports the "Seats for Tinies" movement.
Alfred Kelberry: i'm perfectly fine standing, though. just asking :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol bruce :-)
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps. Though we've had few tiny visitors. So perhaps if you'd like to supply one I can get them rezzed on demand :)
Alfred Kelberry: ah, ok. thank you :)
Bruce Mowbray will find a seat for tinies. . .
Eliza Madrigal: nice idea... like the extra cushions in the corner...
Eliza Madrigal: for people to choose
Storm Nordwind: The same was true when we had a few animals lolling about. The pile of cushions is still there.
Storm Nordwind wonders whether "lolling about" is only British English! :)
Bruce Mowbray is now looking in SL Marketplace. . .
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: *watches the steam*
Bertram Jacobus: google translator at least knows it storm ... ;-)
Storm Nordwind: There is tiny seat in the Five Bells pub, IIRC... though I believe it's under the floor!
Sartre Placebo whispers there is a session on trans gender: the coconstruction of identity in virtual worlds now
Sartre Placebo: at slactions
Bertram Jacobus: under the floor ?! why is that ?! ;o)
Storm Nordwind: People tripped over it Bert! ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: possibly used more by British English... (lolling)
Storm Nordwind: That's interesting Sartre. There are many people I know who would like to hear that
Eliza Madrigal: abundance of talks in SL...
Bertram Jacobus: but can they be used although they are under the floor storm ?

A thinking person's entry into Second Life... or a mid-life crisis?

Eliza Madrigal: I attended many teachings when first here also Bruce, and for that matter there was a season when I was always listening to or reading a teaching in some way.... am an audio junkie like you, too... haha
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: "An audio junkie" -- Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: I listen to dharma podcasts every night while falling asleep and every morning while waking up (!)
Eliza Madrigal: have found myself unable to 'tame' myself for an abstract idea of morality or what I 'should' do, however can 'trade up' in a sense.... which has the same effect at times...
Eliza Madrigal: deeper and more worthy interests perhaps, and then going deeper the other things become worthy in that light...
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice
Alfred Kelberry: eliza, i think they call it a midlife crisis :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) I've had a few of those myself (!)
Bertram Jacobus giggles ...
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: I thought thos e looked like red sportscars...
Bertram Jacobus: ara has a red sportscar ! lol ... (sry) ... :o)
Storm Nordwind: Shouldism is overrated anyway :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: guess I'm trying to describe a phenomenon of sorts... of for instance watching a 'bad' tv show with my son but it becoming as deep and meaningful as any practice I could have engaged in...
Eliza Madrigal: because I was able to see it from a kind of restful open view... think people miss that about SL
Eliza Madrigal: the substance behind the silly :)

At the mention of "silly", Alfred starts scampering around the pavilion...

Alfred Kelberry: oni!
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: :::dizzy:::::
Alfred Kelberry: refreshing sillyness :)
Storm Nordwind giggles at Alfred's running around the pavilion
Sartre Placebo: onigokko
Sartre Placebo: stop
Eliza Madrigal: hahah, because of the art project a lot of us have changed....
Alfred Kelberry: ah! i can never remember the word :)
Eliza Madrigal: lost our onigokkos...
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: on
Bertram Jacobus: off
Alfred Kelberry: :)

We return to equanimity.

Bruce Mowbray: Eliza, me thinks that your experience with the TV show involves the practice of equanimity.
Bertram Jacobus: *agree*
Bruce Mowbray: having neither preference nor prejudice. . .
Eliza Madrigal: interesting point Bruce, yes ..
Bruce Mowbray: We will be discussing equanimity this afternoon in the Ways of Knowing group.
Eliza Madrigal: there was a time when it would fragment me to be around the kind of business and squeaky voices in a kids' cartoon...
Eliza Madrigal remembers to write her report
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Is equanimity then a kind of stable openness?
Eliza Madrigal: like one is less afraid of their peace and quiet being taken from? or something...
Eliza Madrigal: less defensive
Storm Nordwind wonders whether equanimity is something that can be practised and attained, or something that's already there and we find by dropping things that are unreal
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm, nods....
Alfred Kelberry: stable openness - i like that
Bruce Mowbray also needs to write report for WoK and also for tomorrow's TIME group.
Eliza Madrigal: dropping the reactiveness or the buying into I guess..
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes and Time :)
Storm Nordwind: So it's a question of what one identifies with then?
Eliza Madrigal: hm... seems it must be...
Eliza Madrigal: or nothing to react to?
Bruce Mowbray: seems to be, Storm -- and also of how "porous" (soft, receptive, non-judgmental, gentle, stable-openness. . . etc.) one is.

A brief interlude while Bert leaves.

Bertram Jacobus: sry mates and ty - i´ll leave . may all beings be happy plz ! *wave* ...
Storm Nordwind waves
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bert :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Bert.
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste
Bertram Jacobus: ty again ... :-)

A choice of identification.

Storm Nordwind: Yes. If one identifies with reality, how can one react to unreality?
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes helpful phrasing Storm
Bertram Jacobus: on
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Bert
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, read a Dalai Lama quote this morning, that he doesn't 'judge' the universe...
Storm Nordwind nods

Bruce kindly provides seating for Alfred at last... and we start to wind down.

Bruce Mowbray: There's a cushion for you, Al!
Eliza Madrigal: yay :)
Bruce Mowbray: You get a choice between charcoal and plaid.
Storm Nordwind: We wait for Alfred to sit, and then press the secret button which...
Eliza Madrigal: uh oh...haha
Bruce Mowbray: I can move either of them around to wherever you want, Al.
Eliza Madrigal: overloaded by all the choices...
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: I'd better get going... lovely to see you all and I have some unrealities to face.. hehe
Alfred Kelberry: oh! thank you, bruce! :)
Alfred Kelberry: yay! :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: :) now we need to spin him around tho... haha
Bruce Mowbray: Now just stay there and I will turn it around so you can face the fountain.
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, i sit with my back to you :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Cute
Alfred Kelberry: oh, much better now - thank you! :)
Eliza Madrigal: Okay...bye for now, thanks again
Storm Nordwind: Bye ELiza
Alfred Kelberry: cute plaid cushion
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Eliza!
Bruce Mowbray hopes she and her son are feeling better soon.
Alfred Kelberry: oh, she's still ill?
Bruce Mowbray: Hey Al, if you like to try sitting on the charcoal cushion, I could get it rotated properly too.
Bruce Mowbray: (your choice, though).
Alfred Kelberry: sure!
Bruce Mowbray: Not sure if Eliza is still ill, but she said that her son had a cough.
Alfred Kelberry: gee, 2 seats! :)
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- here we go.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bruce Mowbray: How's that?
Alfred Kelberry: perfect!
Storm Nordwind: Be advised that if you leave it here it will get wet!
Alfred Kelberry: thank you so much, bruce
Alfred Kelberry: ha! true, storm :)
Alfred Kelberry: we're in the pool right now
Bruce Mowbray: A pleasure, Al.
Bruce Mowbray: I need to be moving on to RL duties now.
Storm Nordwind: Me too I think
Alfred Kelberry: btw, riddle is tiny too
Sartre Placebo: when he wear´s his elephant, yes :)
Alfred Kelberry: little elephant
Storm Nordwind: How could I forget? ;)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I will pick up the cushions now -- then have them available for later. . . but Al, you should probably buy one to take along with you. . .
Alfred Kelberry: yes, burce. i will.
Bruce Mowbray: May all have a happy day.
Sartre Placebo: bye everyone
Storm Nordwind bows
Storm Nordwind waves
Alfred Kelberry: thank you for teh company