2010.03.03 13:00 - Avatars and Turing Test

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Wol Euler: wednesday march 3, 1pm
    Fefonz Quan: hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: hello fef
    Wol Euler: how's your connection today?
    Fefonz Quan: we'll see :)
    Wol Euler: ok, but so far better than before, if you can hear me
    Fefonz Quan: what wasw the magic keys to chek it?
    Wol Euler: ctrl-shift-1
    Fefonz Quan: i can see your typing :)
    Fefonz Quan: 10% packet loss for now
    Wol Euler: zero for me, hasn't been any yet so far.
    Wol Euler: I wonder what's wrong with your provider...
    Fefonz Quan: me too
    Wol Euler: if I remember rightly, this problem is relatively new. You had a fairly good connection when you first moved back to TLV
    Wol Euler: have you changed providers, or were they bought out?
    Fefonz Quan: not sure, i think i had some problems since i got here
    Liza Deischer: something changed here?
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Liza Deischer: hi
    Wol Euler: hello liza
    Fefonz Quan: hi Liza :)
    Wol Euler: I reduced the playgoda to this inner set
    Wol Euler: more intimate
    Liza Deischer: okay, nice
    Wol Euler: how are you, liza?
    Liza Deischer: i'm okay thanks
    Liza Deischer: you?
    Wol Euler: tired but happy
    Liza Deischer: great
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds fine :)
    Liza Deischer: (for a while I thought there was something wrong with my viewer :-))
    Wol Euler: work is a stretch, I'm trying to see it as a growth experience rather than as something uncomfortable
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Liza Deischer: you're working a lot wol?
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: putting in lots of hours at the moment, trying to get a stack of work finished before mid-April
    Wol Euler: and one of the team just quit, we're covering his tasks too
    Fefonz Quan: what happens mid-apr?
    Liza Deischer: oops
    Fefonz Quan: as
    Wol Euler: I'm going to California! :)))))))
    Liza Deischer: ah you won the lotto
    Wol Euler: yep
    Liza Deischer: great
    Fefonz Quan: Oh, great! me envy !
    Wol Euler: and to Zürich to see the Dalai Lama the weekend before that
    Liza Deischer: wow
    Liza Deischer: now I get jalous :-)
    Wol Euler grins broadly
    Wol Euler: Eden Haiku is in Dharamsala now, listening to his teachings. She's been twittering abou tthe experience, and I got really envious of her.
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: yes his teachings are great
    Wol Euler: so when I found that he was going to be in Zürich, I just had to go.
    Liza Deischer: so you won the lottery twice then :-)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Fefonz Quan: what are the odds... ;-)
    Wol Euler: well :)
    Wol Euler: the DL is actually surprisingly cheap. Tickets cost 38 Euros, whereas the Rolling Stones wanted 70 Euros when they played a concert here.
    Liza Deischer: that's cheap for a teacher like that
    Fefonz Quan: I saw the Rolling stones in Germany in 1991, way before the Euro time
    Liza Deischer: but probably a lot op paying people, so......
    Fefonz Quan: and real buddhists don't take much money for teachings,
    Wol Euler nods
    Liza Deischer: ?
    Liza Deischer: not auit true
    Liza Deischer: quite
    Fefonz Quan: at least that's what i see in most retreats i've been in
    Liza Deischer: they don't ask much, but you pay them a lot
    Liza Deischer: that is the unspoken rule :-)
    Wol Euler: hehehe
    Fefonz Quan: well, as i know it, each pays accordding to his will and ability
    Wol Euler: so you mean there'll be a collectoin jar at the stadium entrance?
    Fefonz Quan: as
    Liza Deischer: I don't know, but when my tacher is coming over......
    Fefonz Quan: exit more likely :)
    Liza Deischer: you pay for his teachings......
    Liza Deischer: and you give some money of your own, according to what you want to pay
    Liza Deischer: it has got to do with benefits
    Liza Deischer: paying a teacher and make it able that he can teach, benefits you
    Wol Euler nods.
    Fefonz Quan: who is your teacher?
    Liza Deischer: Gehlek Rimpoche
    Fefonz Quan: well, you describe what i said, the paying is 'Dana', defined by you
    Liza Deischer: But don't worry about that if you go to Zurich :-)
    Fefonz Quan: it's different from been asked to pay a certain (high) amount
    Liza Deischer: true
    Wol Euler: wb sharon
    Liza Deischer: but you know the organization who invites him (or her) is bounded to the same rules
    Liza Deischer: hi shcaron
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Liza Deischer: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi all, I'm having computer problems, will try to make it over there lol
    Fefonz Quan: hello Eliza, hello Sophiasharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Is it the connection Sharon? Or the computer itself?
    Liza Deischer: there she comes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i thought it was the connection last night
    Liza Deischer: wol was just sharing her great news
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh?
    Wol Euler grins broadly.
    Wol Euler: I'm going to the retreat in April, and to see the Dalai Lama
    Fefonz Quan: the traveling Wolbery's :)
    Wol Euler: :)))))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay :))
    Eliza Madrigal: What a wonderful experience... both
    Wol Euler: I'm not that old
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Fef
    Liza Deischer: :-)))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and in ns too ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, or maybe opportunity first, then experience :)
    Wol Euler: that too
    Fefonz Quan: ns?
    Wol Euler: since I'll be in Canada in the summer anyway, to see my parents
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow! How great
    Eliza Madrigal hopes to pull of NS but may have to sell her dining table... heheh
    Wol Euler: NOva Scotia
    Fefonz Quan: ah, i see.
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: then where are you going to eet eliza ?
    Liza Deischer: eat
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... yes well actually I've been trying to sell the dining table for a while...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: on the couch like i do
    Wol Euler: at the beach!
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!! on the beach
    Wol Euler: isn't Florida all one long beach?
    Eliza Madrigal: Or here.... virtual food
    Wol Euler: apart from the Everglades
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha, yeah sure Wol :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: eek
    Wol Euler: I'Ve seen it on TV, it must be true.
    Liza Deischer: dinner with the crocodiles
    Fefonz Quan: virtual food satisfies mostly virtual hanger
    Liza Deischer: or for the crocodiles :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... everywhere I'd go in the 80s everyone thought Miami Vice was real...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: now CSI... not even shot here...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fefonz Quan: was it not? ohhh...
    Wol Euler: awwww
    Eliza Madrigal: Well MV was... but we weren't all carrying guns...
    Eliza Madrigal: hhehe
    Fefonz Quan: ah, that wasn't the thing that impressed me
    Wol Euler: no?
    Fefonz Quan: well, to see people with guns i don't need to travel far...
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: those kids on the train from the airport worried me
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually we do have gorgeous beaches on the West Coast especially....
    Wol Euler: going home on leave, in uniform, with their guns on their laps casually pointing at each other.
    Fefonz Quan: and it impresses you just if you didn't have to carry that long stick with you for several months...
    Liza Deischer: sorry fonz?
    Fefonz Quan: the guns, never mind.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to plan a retreat here, but prices have been tricky so far...
    Eliza Madrigal: have been looking around
    Eliza Madrigal: emailing/etc
    Wol Euler: ooooh
    Liza Deischer: I understood the stick, but.......
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I have a picture in my mind of how it should go... that might be the obstacle :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Ara
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Liza Deischer: hi ara
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
    Fefonz Quan: so sell the picture and go on :)
    Fefonz Quan: hey ara (or ask ara how to do it)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Fef
    Wol Euler: maybe it's an unknown Picasso :)
    arabella Ella: me?
    Eliza Madrigal: heh
    Fefonz Quan: i don't know about anyone better in retreat organizing
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Ara I was saying that I've been looking around/talking to people in S Florida... trying to form how a retreat might go...
    arabella Ella: ah ok i see
    Eliza Madrigal: but the prices so far are too high... none of the hotels I've inquired about are less than $160 a night... at a deal, etc...
    arabella Ella: would be lovely to have a retreat in Florida :)
    Wol Euler: wow, that is high.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no retreat centers there Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, if on the water
    Eliza Madrigal: Which I think is crucial
    arabella Ella: sorry chat lag
    Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, just Catholic marriage retreat centers that I keep finding... hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm lol
    Liza Deischer: the mist is a bit weird without the water :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: And a gorgeous one being built in upper Florida which will be ready in a few years....
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Liza... Adams calls it steam cleaning
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Liza Deischer: the smaller setting is nice
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hard to imagine a place that doesn't have just a simple retreat center, but thats tsomething id look for, that part of florida is pretty packed
    Liza Deischer: for a group like this
    arabella Ella: So Eliza are the hotels so expensive because they are on the water front with sea views?
    Eliza Madrigal: So next step is to talk to a realtor about renting a house on the water.... that might be nice... then work with a hotel nearby
    Wol Euler: oooh
    Wol Euler: that's an idea.
    Fefonz Quan: (did someone say the prices?)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Ara.. and Jan is peak season
    Eliza Madrigal: I love Naples and Sanibel for instance...
    Liza Deischer: sounds great
    arabella Ella: and if I may ... if you rent a house on the water you could easily use the living room for meditation and either eat out or get take aways
    Eliza Madrigal: but pricey that time of year and restaurants are expensive so need a kitchen :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that's what I'm thinking...
    Eliza Madrigal: but may be tricky because one would haev to plan before people signed on, etc
    Wol Euler: we could take turns cooking
    Eliza Madrigal: but certainly an idea... maybe even rent a boat one day
    arabella Ella: so you may not need accommodation plus retreat venue but you may find one place for both ... which is not a retreat centre but as such PaB needs very little set up
    Wol Euler: if there enough people, you'd only have to cook once or twice
    arabella Ella: Fef is the BEST cook
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... it certainly would be a nice setting... beach walks at night, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: if the weather was good
    Fefonz Quan blashes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Fef
    Wol Euler: avoid hurricane season
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... has to be Jan/Feb at latest... the dates avail for 2011 would be toward end Jan
    Eliza Madrigal: but not much time to pull that together.... we'll see
    Eliza Madrigal: Anyway, not to take the whole session.... heh
    Eliza Madrigal: good to brainstorm though
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Wol, Storm took a great navi picture of you....
    Eliza Madrigal: its in the log from yesterday
    Wol Euler: I saw the log! quite a lovely shot, if I say so myself, very flattering
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
    Fefonz Quan: (link?)
    Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/..._to_see_a_Lama
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh just looked, it is a compelling shot :)
    Wol Euler: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/..._to_see_a_Lama
    Eliza Madrigal: we made a sandwich of Sharon's line... hehe
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, great pic
    Eliza Madrigal: now who is easily entertained? heheh
    Fefonz Quan: who is the 2-D Avi?
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Wol Euler: that's a photo of Zon, who crashed or left
    Wol Euler: put there by Storm to commemorate him
    Fefonz Quan: funny :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Fefonz Quan: the concept of leaving an image of an(already image) avatar is very post-mpodernism
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: hiya
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Mick
    Liza Deischer: hi mick
    Fefonz Quan: in what way is the new image less real than the avatar himslef?
    Fefonz Quan: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Fef.... plays with one's unreal notions
    Wol Euler: well, if it doesn't respond, it isn't him
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the image doesnt interact with you, except on a sensory level
    Wol Euler: but pixels is pixels
    Fefonz Quan: well, some avatars don't respond too sometimes (for example when they have comm. issue). does that make them unreal?
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Fefonz Quan: some of them are pixels
    Eliza Madrigal: and then farther, some rl avs don't respond either... what then are they?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they're not driven
    Liza Deischer: I guess so because nobody 'lives' there at that moment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they're static
    Eliza Madrigal: asleep at the wheel
    Liza Deischer: rl avs :-)
    Liza Deischer: sorry
    Fefonz Quan: we were just static for 90 sec...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Liza Deischer: i wasn't
    Wol Euler: temporarily unreal
    Eliza Madrigal: but aware.. responsive to the silence
    Liza Deischer: even not doing anything
    Liza Deischer: exactly eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i was thinking
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: be careful
    Fefonz Quan: exactly Eliza, hence i don't accept the temp.unreal thesis
    Eliza Madrigal: objects in the mirror...
    Liza Deischer: but an empty avatar, is empty
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well part of attention could be running around in both cases... avatar coming back to nod or smile every few minutes and then back to email.....
    Fefonz Quan: but can you know it's empty? the only avatar you know is empty is yours
    Wol Euler: but surely if I am here to know that it's empty, then it is not empty?
    Fefonz Quan: aha!
    Eliza Madrigal: full of empty in that case maybe
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: overflowing with emptiness
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Liza Deischer: empty is non-awareness on every level I should say
    Liza Deischer: ehm....in that case humans can be empty too
    Liza Deischer: I just realised
    Fefonz Quan: and if the avatar is ran by some auto-program, would you know it's empty?
    Liza Deischer: yes :-)
    Wol Euler points to the Turing Test :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i never trusted that one
    arabella Ella: he he
    Liza Deischer: aks him who the president of the US is and you will know :-)
    arabella Ella: shall we try the Turing Test on each other now?
    Liza Deischer: Turing test?
    Fefonz Quan: well that's the easiest question, google knows it
    arabella Ella: to see who is a real person and who is just a program (software) responding
    arabella Ella: so does google beat the Turing test?
    Eliza Madrigal: that better not be one of those jumbled type things.... hehe
    Wol Euler: no, I don't think anyone could mistake it for a human answering
    Wol Euler: (which is hte point of the test)
    Fefonz Quan: i would say many people would fail the turing teat, so it doesn't say anything
    Wol Euler laughs!
    arabella Ella: well Google does much better when asked questions than humans, it is faster and more efficient too
    Wol Euler: that would be the first giveaway, probably, that hte answer was far too fast.
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... but what kind of answers you get is another matter... whether they answer specific... 'why' not just what?
    Eliza Madrigal: (though not talking about turing... can hardly decipher the wiki on that) hehe
    arabella Ella: but Wol speed would not be an argument would it as you could have humans (hypothetically) with supernaturally fast brains?
    Wol Euler: possibly, but have you met one?
    Fefonz Quan: surely google can slow down for you Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    arabella Ella: only read about a few who are fast at maths and ha ve brilliant memory
    arabella Ella: (and I said hypothetically too)
    Fefonz Quan: it can find the 10to the 50 primary number between the questions or something
    Liza Deischer: put an ....eh......in it as well
    Wol Euler: but you'd catch them out by asking what htey had for lunch yesterday, they'd think for several seconds before answering
    arabella Ella: yes i am not saying you cant catch them out
    Eliza Madrigal: pixels... answer always pixels...
    Fefonz Quan: google can think it too, what 's the problem?
    arabella Ella: but google is one example of how machines can do more than we would have expected a few years ago
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder what philosophy one would attach too,,if an AI had the choice?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have to go to work all, ho hum... Nice to see you all :))
    arabella Ella: and when it comes to AI and Turing Tests I feel we are always widening the goal posts and that may be one reason why certain criteria do not seem to be met
    Eliza Madrigal better go... have veggies to roast ..
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye,,dont work too hard
    Wol Euler: bye sharon, work well; bye eliza, happy eating
    Liza Deischer: bye haron
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) bye
    Liza Deischer: sharon
    arabella Ella: bye SSL
    Liza Deischer: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Waves Nice to see you everyone
    Fefonz Quan: bye SHaron
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: bye Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: do you think an AI would be an Ayne Rand or a Kant?
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Fefonz Quan: depends on the programming, of course ;-)
    Wol Euler: I would fear an Any Rand, opinionated and arrogant
    arabella Ella agrees with Wol
    Wol Euler: fear that it would be ...
    Fefonz Quan: might be an ayne rand, easiest not to give a ... about what people feel
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats what I thought
    Mickorod Renard: scary
    arabella Ella: but
    arabella Ella: for machines to be considerd more 'human'
    arabella Ella: emotions should be incorporated
    arabella Ella: and why not?
    Fefonz Quan: last year i found that Alan Grispan of the crisis fame, was one of ran'ds cloes circle admirer
    Mickorod Renard: I doubt Ayne Rand was emotionless
    Wol Euler: too many economists are :/
    Wol Euler: it's circumstantial evidence, but pretty damning
    Fefonz Quan: surely she wasn't emotionless
    arabella Ella: i think it is always an excess of ambition, arrogance and hot air
    Fefonz Quan: errogance is an emotion
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: it is an attitude
    arabella Ella: not an emotion
    Mickorod Renard: mmm maybe
    arabella Ella: a person IS arrogant ... not feels arrogant (generally speaking)
    Fefonz Quan: Mick, i guess you need to have ones in order to try so hard to shut them down
    Mickorod Renard: I often reflect on it,,her works,,it sort of makes me question my own softness,,as if maybe I am weak
    Wol Euler frowns
    Wol Euler: what a strange idea.
    Fefonz Quan: (regarding Rand that was)
    arabella Ella: could we change topic from Rand please?
    arabella Ella: makes me ... p...e
    Mickorod Renard: he he ,,sorry
    Liza Deischer: it sounds like punishing yourself
    Wol Euler: you might as well regard Jeffrey Dahlmer and think that of yourself
    Wol Euler: but ok, ara, sure
    Liza Deischer: I think mick topic is another one
    Fefonz Quan: you know what they say about the wheat and the hard trees in the storm Mick
    Mickorod Renard: without some self doubt I would be an emotionless person I think
    Mickorod Renard: yes Fef,,I reasure myself with those notions
    Liza Deischer: so then where is the self doubt coming from?
    Fefonz Quan: (from the self hehe)
    Liza Deischer: I mean would somebody who is emotionless have self doubt
    Liza Deischer: or doubt himself
    Wol Euler: good question.
    Wol Euler: perhaps not.
    Mickorod Renard: I doubt it
    Wol Euler: wouldn'
    Wol Euler: wouldn't have the tools to do it, so to speak
    Liza Deischer: I think so too
    Liza Deischer: mabe your self doubt is getting in the way of your emotions
    Liza Deischer: self doubt is normally based of fear and fear shuts down everything
    Wol Euler: my dears, I must leave you for another meeting about the wiki.
    Wol Euler: bye for now, take care
    Mickorod Renard: so who or rather what sort of pwerson would be given the responsibility to program an AI with philosophic notions?
    Wol Euler: be real, and emotional
    Liza Deischer: bye wol
    arabella Ella: bye Wol
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wol
    Fefonz Quan: reminds me of the story that on some conventio in the west, the Dalai Lama had hard time realizin=ng what is low self esteem
    Fefonz Quan: bye Wol
    Fefonz Quan: take care
    Liza Deischer: I don't belief in AI as an intelligence
    Fefonz Quan: me neither Liza
    Liza Deischer: Tibetans don't have those problems
    Liza Deischer: they even don't have a word for guilt
    Fefonz Quan: yes, that;s what i heard about it
    Fefonz Quan: yet they have other problems to deal with...
    Liza Deischer: but besides the good parts of Christianity, the way it is interpreted has loaded us with sin, doubt, fear, guilt and so on
    Liza Deischer: I mean doubt in the negative way
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Mickorod Renard: I think much of the diference is in our western attachment to material things
    Fefonz Quan: (i'll get to bed, good night all!)
    Liza Deischer: nite Fon
    Mickorod Renard: nite Fef
    Liza Deischer: fonz
    arabella Ella: nite Fef
    Liza Deischer: could well be mick
    Mickorod Renard: I must head home now
    Liza Deischer: okay, bye mick
    Mickorod Renard: nice seein ya all
    arabella Ella: nite MIC
    Liza Deischer: i hope I didn't come in too strong
    Mickorod Renard: niet
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    arabella Ella: i must go too good night Liza
    Liza Deischer: nite
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