2010.03.22 01:00 - What is mastery?

The Guardian for this meeting was Tarmel Udimo.

Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: Good morning Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: Hey Susie, good evening
Susi Alcott: :)
Tarmel Udimo: Its been a long time:)
Tarmel Udimo: How have you been?
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: how have you been ?

--BELL--

Tarmel Udimo: very good
Susi Alcott: good to hear _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: and you?
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Calvino:)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: How are things?
Susi Alcott: Hello Cal _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Things are well :)
Tarmel Udimo: I have been going through my boxes of books that have been packed away for ages
Tarmel Udimo: Finally found the book on female Shamanism
Susi Alcott: that's kind of adventure
Susi Alcott: :)
Tarmel Udimo: 13 moons by Jamie Sims or Stands:)
Tarmel Udimo: I think Sims
Tarmel Udimo: yes It was
Susi Alcott: phone
Tarmel Udimo: nods

--BELL--

Tarmel Udimo: Welcome back Calvino:)
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Stannik:)
Strannik Zipper: greetings
Tarmel Udimo: Greetings!
Tarmel Udimo: Does anyone have a topic?
Susi Alcott: b
Tarmel Udimo: welcome back Susie
Susi Alcott: greetings Stannik
Susi Alcott: ty
Strannik Zipper: Hi Susi
Tarmel Udimo: Have you been doing a lot of healing Susi?
Calvino Rabeni: Susi, you look healthy - have you been working out at the gymnasium? :)
Susi Alcott: hm
Susi Alcott: could there be not doing ...think not...
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Susi Alcott: no: only 'doing' healing
Susi Alcott: but one day I had time to go to swim :)
Tarmel Udimo: nice! I went sailing on Saturday, it was a beautiful day
Susi Alcott: wonderful :)
Tarmel Udimo: humm, but I don't think I would make a good sailor
Susi Alcott: we have a saying that 'all else is futile, but sailing'
Strannik Zipper: It is a lovely thing to do
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: that's a nice thing to say
Strannik Zipper: There is something magic about water
Tarmel Udimo: it seemed very complicated
Strannik Zipper: ...and wind
Tarmel Udimo: yes i love water... but I am also a little cautious around it
Susi Alcott: then why you think you couldn't be the good sailor ?
Tarmel Udimo: fellt sick;)
Tarmel Udimo: felt
Susi Alcott: oh
Strannik Zipper: oh *that* doesn't help!
Tarmel Udimo: hahahaha
Tarmel Udimo: no
Susi Alcott: then you could be the good pilot ?
Strannik Zipper: dramamine and ginger tea help with that - to a point
Tarmel Udimo: yes or a racing car driver:)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: I've been teached that sailors cannot be pilots or opposite
Strannik Zipper: how so?
Tarmel Udimo: oh, why not?
Susi Alcott: the other person cannot take the moving horizon and the other cannot take the horizon not existing
Tarmel Udimo: hummm will have to think about that one
Strannik Zipper: oh that is interesting! two different presentations of space
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Susi Alcott: that people are 'devided' same way with this than it's teached to me that other people are good in languages and other people in mathematic
Strannik Zipper: you might say two different forms of reference points
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Strannik Zipper: it does often seem that one is fundamentally a word or a number person in some way

--BELL--

Susi Alcott: as there is the difference in Jing and Jang and they create charachters...so; might there be truth within this kind of 'deviding'
Tarmel Udimo: words or numbers... humm
Susi Alcott: ah yes; numbers are also words...
Susi Alcott: on person who hag this bad lag to read, teached me that
Susi Alcott: and that I learned to understand
Susi Alcott: has
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: I like words
Susi Alcott: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I have to admit, I like them too!
Tarmel Udimo: well i like searching for the meaning of them
Strannik Zipper: me too - I struggle more with numbers
Susi Alcott: would there be something U'de like to share here of the book you found ?
Tarmel Udimo: ahh the 13 moons?
Susi Alcott: that female shaman
Susi Alcott: (sry didnt' roll the lines)
Tarmel Udimo: I found lots of others:) this one talks about the difference between vision quests for men and women
Strannik Zipper: interesting
Tarmel Udimo: women she contends need warmth, good food, comfort, etc
Tarmel Udimo: yes, when she feels safe she can dream
Susi Alcott: that is very interesting yes
Strannik Zipper: let me guess - men need a challenge?
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: for men they must break down the 'ego' and so do all those physical testing things
Tarmel Udimo: yes until they finally surrender
Susi Alcott: and mostly imho that is not ment for good to any man
Strannik Zipper: that makes sense
Tarmel Udimo: I mean i am not sure how this is for men and whether they need this
Strannik Zipper: I think they do need it
Tarmel Udimo: but I think she was saying women don't need to follow in men's paths
Tarmel Udimo: which is what has been happening shamanically
Susi Alcott: and or 'cannot'
Susi Alcott: that is wise book
Susi Alcott: thank you very much for sharing this
Strannik Zipper: so this is another interesting "division" showing different orientations to perceiving things
Tarmel Udimo: yes, well women are very strong and can endure so they could be tested this way
Tarmel Udimo: but she is suggesting this does not produce good 'dreaming'
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: so guys how do you feel? do you think you needed to be tested
Tarmel Udimo: *need*
Strannik Zipper: sailors vs. pilots, number people vs. word people, men vs. women shamans
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Strannik Zipper: I think we need to stretch beyond limits to gain a new capacity, ability or confidence
Tarmel Udimo: true
Calvino Rabeni: Well put
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Strannik Zipper: do these apparent "lmits" in divided abilities perhaps indicated a primary method of focusing?
Strannik Zipper: indicatre
Strannik Zipper: indicate
Susi Alcott: could new capacity be also just to improve some skill which is 'just naturall' ?
Strannik Zipper: it could be

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: A need to be challenged - and to break through limits - these things need to be made manifest
Susi Alcott: sometimes that capacity comes also with giving up more and more of 'something'...
Tarmel Udimo: are you asking if we shift focus this may not be true?
Tarmel Udimo: nods to Calvino
Tarmel Udimo: hummm giving up, can you give us an example Susi?
Susi Alcott: many people hurt there goal by trying too much
Strannik Zipper: I am seeing these "limits" e.g. a pilot not being a sailor as being in fact, ways of seeing that require a degree of focused orientation
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: and if we focused differently, this would not be true?
Strannik Zipper: I think that the challenge manifests itself in two ways - one is to push oneself beyond expected limits, possibly gaining a new skill or record or whatever, the second thing being self-knowledge that results from this
Strannik Zipper: failure in the face of the challenge is one possible outcome, but self-knowledge will still be a result
Susi Alcott: when one cannot change one's character, that is specially pilot of the sailor, that might not be the question of the truth...
Susi Alcott: it sure is always a question if the limit is to breake without hurting anything in oneself, but improving
Calvino Rabeni: All that exists in the human world, came into being through some kind desire or aspiration, and its persistent struggle to be born
Tarmel Udimo: being kind to oneself
Tarmel Udimo: and yet we are always working torwads grace and ease
Tarmel Udimo: even though what you say is true - that there is struggle
Calvino Rabeni: ah, but that's taken as the indicator of success and skill -
Susi Alcott: that sure is also the question what is to be kind to oneself
Calvino Rabeni: but when it comes down to it, people will bring things into being regardless of whether it feels graceful and easy
Susi Alcott: when one has will to be challenged, then to challenge onself is to be kind
Strannik Zipper: I have noticed that I don't care how challenging something is, as long as my heart is in it
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Strannik Zipper: Susi - yes!
Calvino Rabeni: Is that true, really? If your heart is in it, what quality does that have?
Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess, it has a willingness to struggle as part of it
Susi Alcott: many people have told me that I need to take better care of myself....
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Strannik Zipper: Calvino - at least much more willingness to struggle
Susi Alcott: they ment that I should rest more and say much more 'no' to the help requests
Calvino Rabeni: What's worth doing, is worth doing somewhat independently of what the world presents pro or con
Calvino Rabeni: And the heart commitment is a sense of strength and determination
Calvino Rabeni: the heart is the one organ that never stops
Susi Alcott: that is also not only heart one hurts if does against what one is
Strannik Zipper: Calvion - yes! I think you are describing the men's vision quest now ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: it pushes and relaxes steadily throughout one's life
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: The heart never doubts
Tarmel Udimo: I agree with full commitment to the task at ahnd
Susi Alcott: so; what I learned form these friends adwised was, that if I say more 'no', I work against myself
Calvino Rabeni: and it is willing to - insists on - giving energy to all the body
Tarmel Udimo: but also lately I am learning to take an easire path and one that does not need struggle
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Hokon, please come join us!
Susi Alcott: Hi Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: hellos
Calvino Rabeni: And if one takes that easier path - does it not actually imply, that the energy is saved from something more important, that really matters?
Strannik Zipper: I think perhaps that struggle is a stage in any path, but ease comes with mastery

--BELL--

Susi Alcott: what you name to be mastery ?
Susi Alcott: is it to measure some way ?
Calvino Rabeni: No master rests on their past success
Tarmel Udimo: sorry just giving Hoon some info about PaB
Tarmel Udimo: Hokon
Calvino Rabeni: It is a good question - what is mastery
Tarmel Udimo: yes what is mastery?
Strannik Zipper: well, for example, martial arts or music - there is a path to excellence that has some common features
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: And a master of one art will extend it into other areas
Susi Alcott: so you Cal mean that what I've heared to been said that the master is the pupil also all the time ?
Tarmel Udimo: (There are four meetings a day and you are free to join in at anytime > Hokon)
Hokon Cazalet: cool ty =)
Strannik Zipper: it might be easy up to a point, but at some point, you will encounter difficulties or boredom or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the master became a master by being a pure pupil continuously for however long it took
Strannik Zipper: and it will take tenacity and commitment and effort to get through those points
Calvino Rabeni: At that point it takes "heart"
Strannik Zipper: but when you do, you are then operating at a higher level, and things become an effortless flow - until the next stage of learning starts
Calvino Rabeni: That is one of the common meanings for the heart quality
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Strannik Zipper: Calvino - yes!
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps every master - had to have some courage to do what seemed unreasonable to those around him/her?
Tarmel Udimo: agree
Susi Alcott: (or crazyness)
Strannik Zipper: that courage may make the difference between mediocrity and excellence
Calvino Rabeni: Yes some of that also :)
Strannik Zipper: ;)
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: Any master is likely to have made some sacrifice, maybe even to the point of being unbalanced or incomplete in some way
Strannik Zipper: I got an interesting sense of these things watching the last round of Olympics
Calvino Rabeni: And there may be a darkness to it also
Susi Alcott: me and my many friends in RL call that phrase 'unbalanced' to be 'card deck disorderly'
Susi Alcott: and we all know that the better we surrender to that, the better all shall be in balance and the more quick too
Calvino Rabeni: The outsider, the public admires the apparent ease of the master - but does not necessarily see the sacrifice and struggle it took to become that person
Calvino Rabeni: If they want their struggle to be made meaningful, they will like that part of the story of the master
Strannik Zipper: and of course that is one of the marks of a master - they make it look easy!
Calvino Rabeni: but otherwise they want to see the result and imagine being that way
Calvino Rabeni: The master bacame a master by concentrating on the process ahead of the results
Susi Alcott: the resolt mostly is that one knows that one has done the best one can
Calvino Rabeni: the superior result was a side effect of training and focus on the process and skills
Strannik Zipper: practice! which always takes place in the present moment
Calvino Rabeni: that is what created the "path" to begin with
Susi Alcott: what you take to be to practice ?
Calvino Rabeni: yes, the path is not just a dotted line from here to goal

--BELL--

Strannik Zipper: anything can be practice!
Susi Alcott: ok; as my lag 'tells' me that to practice is to do something :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Tarmel Udimo: Nice to have you join us Hokon,
Calvino Rabeni: Anything can be practice, true, but what makes it practice then?
Hokon Cazalet: thank you for letting me sit in guys, i gotta head to bed now, but this place seems nice; ill be back for more another day soon =)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, come again :)
Hokon Cazalet: have a good day/night
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Strannik Zipper: cheers!
Tarmel Udimo: Well folks that's it for me...
Strannik Zipper: what makes something practice? perhaps attention and intention
Tarmel Udimo: This has been a good session though
Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you, Tarmel - take care, be well
Tarmel Udimo: feel free to continue in my absence
Strannik Zipper: cheers Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: time for dinner:)
Tarmel Udimo: bye for now
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds good (the last thing you said about practice)
Calvino Rabeni: So is it possible to make "watching TV and eating popcorn" into practice?
Strannik Zipper: lately I have been finding myself wanting to focus on practices that involve head, hands and heart
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds nice, what would be an example?
Strannik Zipper: -an idea put forth by Robert Fripp of King Crimson fame in his guitar workshops
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, the Guitar Circle group - an interesting school
Strannik Zipper: Guitar for me would be one good example - an intention to play, which commits me to practice and the attention to be one with the strings while doing it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes.
Calvino Rabeni: I discovered that group by accident a while back
Strannik Zipper: I have been reading an account by someone who did the class - it sounds fascinating
Calvino Rabeni: I went to a performance, and while at it, I had the intuition that there was an esoteric school involved behind what I saw there
Calvino Rabeni: I inquired, and found out it was true, then looked up the history
Strannik Zipper: Very perceptive - there was a connection of some of the ideas to the Gurdjieff work
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that was the connection specifically that I intuited, that there was a connection to Gurdjieff work
Calvino Rabeni: Later I found out it was the Bennett branch
Strannik Zipper: the most interesting thing is having intuited a new tuning
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not musically inclined, so I just noticed the focus involved
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe, a little theatricality
Strannik Zipper: no doubt
Calvino Rabeni: which I don't associate with other schools
Strannik Zipper: there are a lot of pitfalls that an effort like that can fall into
Calvino Rabeni: I think the combination of focus, intensity, and theatricality was a big part of the "signature"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, what have you noticed about that?
Strannik Zipper: Well I haven't noticed anything about the guitar group - I've only read accounts and heard recordings...but with similar efforts of integration, there are a few usual suspects
Strannik Zipper: it can become a cult, or believe too much in its own methods, etc.

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but with sufficient dedication and effort, that is an ensuing risk
Calvino Rabeni: This gets back to the theme of the unreasonableness of practice that can lead to mastery
Strannik Zipper: I think it is one of the risks of practice
Calvino Rabeni: But in addition, I think I agree, the integrative paths can become too totalistic
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps it is a hubris?
Strannik Zipper: right - I have begun to see that problem perhaps as an imbalance of imagination over attention
Strannik Zipper: becoming attached to a formula
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, it sounds like those 2 things depend on each other for proper functioning
Strannik Zipper: and being unwilling to see when the formula stops working
Strannik Zipper: I think so!
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah
Calvino Rabeni: In addition to imagination and intention, what else is needed? (LIke, a third element)?
Strannik Zipper: attention
Calvino Rabeni: The negative feedback of a real world challenge is the third element - the external form of it anyway
Calvino Rabeni: But what is the internal aspect of that?
Calvino Rabeni: Humility?
Strannik Zipper: hmmmmm - perhaps
Strannik Zipper: humility enought to be open to new information
Strannik Zipper: A friend calls that being teachable
Calvino Rabeni: More than information - to things that risk undermining one's basis
Strannik Zipper: yeah - such negative feedback can be a real blow
Calvino Rabeni: In a somewhat exaggerated way, I'm suggesting that a true challenge can't necessarily be domesticated
Strannik Zipper: domesticated - interesting word
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, as in made securely predictable
Strannik Zipper: one would always have to be vulnerable
Calvino Rabeni: Or in other words, formulaic
Strannik Zipper: I have observed that people who are good at one type of challenge often get good at others - as if there is a meta challenge development
Calvino Rabeni: There seem to be certain elements in common, principles I suppose
Strannik Zipper: perhaps the first time a negative feedback situation knocks you down it is disorienting, but after you see how it benefits, then you become a bit more willing to let it happen

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Probably, a goodly number of them :)
Strannik Zipper: Well I am up far too late, but it has been nice
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, good to see you here
Calvino Rabeni: Be well
Strannik Zipper: you too