2010.03.25 01:00 - Creativity and Dreams

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Susi, Calvino, Hokon, Tabitha, Bertram. This was a long session but/because I found the topics very interesting, especially Calvino's description of creativity from a RL meeting he had attended.

Art and Being project and land use:  

   Zen Arado: Hi Susi :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Zen
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: how are you ?
    Zen Arado: not bad
    Zen Arado: I have to get up at 6.30 to do this slot!
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: I will be glad when the time changes this weekend
    Susi Alcott: is it easy for you to accustom to that time change ?
    Zen Arado: it is hard to drag myself out of bed so early but I feel ok once I get up
    Zen Arado: and it gives me more time to do things
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: Thursday is a busy day for me
    Zen Arado: I go to an art club in hte afternoon and then a mindfulness meditation meeting tonight
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: the art club is having their Spring exhibition soon
    Zen Arado: so I have to get some paintings ready
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: did you see the art projects they are doing here?
    Susi Alcott: no; only heared something of it in the meeting as they talked about it
    Zen Arado: Bleu and Storm have already made works
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: I have an idea but it will be very simple
    Susi Alcott: you'de like to share ?
    Zen Arado: I don't want to put it here
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: Moon could do something very good I am sure
    Zen Arado: you can do building too?
    Susi Alcott: well...a bit
    Zen Arado: I have built some houses but I didn't like them very much
    Zen Arado: and I kept wanting to change them
    Zen Arado: never satisfied with them
    Susi Alcott: I've builded only saunas before, but 'today' I have a project of the sepcial building with incline walls
    Susi Alcott: Moon said it to be interesting house :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: yes - Moon can help you
    Zen Arado: I might move from my 1/4 sim soon
    Susi Alcott: been willing to build it all by myself; was much learning
    Susi Alcott: ah ?
    Zen Arado: I might buy some mainland and build an srt studio and gallery
    Susi Alcott: but Moon teached me that not to demand too much from myself and that was releaf
    Zen Arado: art
    Susi Alcott: aha
    Susi Alcott: how much have you thought to buy ?
    Zen Arado: Bleu has one and she is giving me ideas
    Zen Arado: don't know but I pay 9200 L$ atm
    Zen Arado: permonth
    Zen Arado: not sure how much mainland I could get for that
    Susi Alcott: would U pls tell me that in euros; I can check
    Zen Arado: don't know - I don't use euros
    Zen Arado: use Brisish sterling in N.Ireland
    Susi Alcott: ah ok
    Susi Alcott: just a min; I'll find my way
    Zen Arado: I think I have a table of Linden land somewhere so I will check later
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: that would be ab 40 USD and that is the tier for LL from 8.192 sqm
    Susi Alcott: = 1/8 region
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: I found the table
    Zen Arado: that is quite a big piece of land
    Zen Arado: I wonder how many people you can have there
    Zen Arado: I can only have 5 at present place
    Susi Alcott: about that I dont know either...
    Zen Arado: well I'm sure it is more with mainland
    Susi Alcott: that's for sure
    Zen Arado: and I might not need so much land as that
    Zen Arado: I have been in my present place over a year now
    Susi Alcott: that would have ab 1500 prims
    Zen Arado: I get attached to places

Calvino arrives and we start discussing a book we are both reading, 'The Book of Not Knowing' and reading books in general:

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zen!
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Good
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: namaste
    Zen Arado: my namaste gesture isn't very good :)
    Zen Arado: still reading that book you recommended Cal
    Zen Arado: 'The Book of Not Knowing'
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, working your way through page by page, or skipping?
    Zen Arado: no reading it properly
    Zen Arado: and even doing the exercises
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, then, what page have you gotten to... oh, excellent :)
    Zen Arado: around 180 I think
    Zen Arado: I am reading about how the self is only a bunch of concepts
    Zen Arado: and different from true self or awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an amazing book. Lately I was looking at it and it occured to me - this is an entire book about "dropping"
    Zen Arado: yes - about dropping conceptual knowledge
    Zen Arado: or being able to when you want?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: I like the bit at the start where to have to drop all your ideas about an object you are looking at and just see it as it is
    Zen Arado: like Husserl's Epoche?
    Zen Arado: amazing how difficult it is to do
    Calvino Rabeni: IT seems rather thorough overall
    Zen Arado: I find him a bit long winded at times but only because I have read so much about some of the ideas already
    Zen Arado: not sure if you would like that book Susi
    Calvino Rabeni: Ralston is a creative teacher - and I would say, his teaching is definitely a way of bringing the material into presence in the moment
    Susi Alcott: still no reader :)
    Zen Arado: it is about how you have to 'not know' first before you really can know something
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, he was continually making it up anew on the spot\
    Calvino Rabeni: I studied it in the context of martial arts, not philospphy
    Susi Alcott: I can share ---if you want---one experience of try to read the whole book; meaning sure of such so called spiritual book
    Zen Arado: yes he is a very clear writer
    Zen Arado: sure Susi
    Susi Alcott: as that book I finally could read all, but with friends help
    Calvino Rabeni: This book represents perhaps the unifying thing at his school, but about 30% of the overall material
    Susi Alcott: I dont remember exactly the name of the book but it told about conversation of it's writer and Hathors
    Calvino Rabeni: At the time, the school was called - The Cheng Hsin School of Ontology and Internal Martial Arts
    Calvino Rabeni: This particular book came from a course called the Mind Course, about the nature of Mind
    Susi Alcott: ah yes; you Cal didn't know that I've 'read only Donald Duck' and 'the rest of the books' by lifting them onto my chest or letting them open and read the line or the chapter
    Calvino Rabeni: However there were other courses of an applied nature
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, there was a class called the Function Course, which is about explicitly, relationship
    Zen Arado: you have studied with him Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: And another called the Mastery Course, which was about developing skill in any practice
    Susi Alcott: so; as this book I think is named as 'Hathors', gave advises to several practising in order to try to improve one's self
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I had what I consider to be the good fortune to be a regular at his school in the late 80's for about four years
    Calvino Rabeni: And it made a big impression
    Zen Arado: that would be great Cal
    Susi Alcott: so....I 'waded' it a while feeling guite bad of it's advises, untill I came onto the 'last practice' and got mad
    Zen Arado: got mad Susi?
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: because imo it gave the most easy practice as the last one
    Zen Arado: :)
    Susi Alcott: as if I'de done that book, I'de written that as No 1 and the most easy
    Zen Arado: I read too many books
    Zen Arado: too many concepts
    Susi Alcott: as those advises pointed to 'learn' to love
    Zen Arado: I like the exercises in Ralston's book
    Calvino Rabeni: The thing that impressed me most I think, is that Ralston's teaching is 100% applied and practical - he eschewed conceptualism
    Susi Alcott: so...I just didn't throw the book to the wall, but nearly
    Zen Arado: yes and I need that kind of teaching
    Susi Alcott: and decided not to read more
    Susi Alcott: but then it happened that my 'walking library' friend came to visit me and I pourd out my bad feeling for that book....
    Susi Alcott: then he said something that made me to think
    Susi Alcott: as he said;
    Zen Arado: 'walking library' sounds like me :)
    Susi Alcott: "You dont know, but that is the most hard thing for people to do"
    Susi Alcott: well; you are spirit brothers with this my RL friend :)
    Zen Arado: but 'not knowing' can mean being open to new teaching
    Susi Alcott: so; as I felt the truth within his words, I started to study and learned
    Zen Arado: it is what you do with what you learn
    Susi Alcott: I still cannot give up of my learned, that I must not breake my knowledge and awareness focusing to some part of it which is written to a book...
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: and yes; the end of the story is that to study his said, I read that book to it's end
    Zen Arado: a book is a frozen bit of knowledge really
    Susi Alcott: that sadly teached me to understand more how right he was/is
    Susi Alcott: end of the story
    Calvino Rabeni: An old saying I like - the wise man learns more from the fool, than the fool from the wise man
    Susi Alcott: lol
    Zen Arado: true Cal :)
    Susi Alcott: well; good or bad, dont know, but felt myself more as fool than wise person
    Susi Alcott: but never have I met such person, with whom I couldn't speak with, no matter how highly educated one
    Calvino Rabeni: The Book of Not Knowing takes its focus as "what is self" or rather "who am i", but the process of contemplation taught there, can be used for virtually anything
    Susi Alcott: but I've been 'flying around' since very little child and learned from people and living
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: there is another kind of knowing from awareness
    Zen Arado: not from rational thought
    Zen Arado: I am interested in that atm
    Zen Arado: it is where you get creative ideas from they say

Calvino introduces some of the ideas he discovered from attending a RL 'creativity' group:

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I went to a group discussing creativity yesterday, and it is on my mind too
    Zen Arado: in SL Cal?
    Susi Alcott: is this creative idea to behave not-expected ?
    Calvino Rabeni: No in RL
    Zen Arado: tell us more
    Calvino Rabeni: It was a group contemplation of "what is creativity"
    Calvino Rabeni: and done in the "world cafe" format
    Calvino Rabeni: There were small group discussions in rounds, with a series of questions
    Calvino Rabeni: and then the groups would shuffle to bring different combinations of people together
    Calvino Rabeni: with some summarization near the end
    Calvino Rabeni: but it was based on "thinking into" whatever the things the people presented - to help the others of your small group with the topic
    Calvino Rabeni: so in that was a group contemplation process
    Calvino Rabeni: And one part that interested me was deconstructing common assumptions about creativity
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: The common assumptions are - what occurs first to people
    Calvino Rabeni: And which they usually don't think beyond very much
    Calvino Rabeni: such as, creativity is what artists do, was one idea
    Calvino Rabeni: or creativity is for problem solving at work - another common idea
    Zen Arado: Hi Hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Calvino Rabeni: since there is a literature of teaching problem solving methods
    Susi Alcott: hi Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: So I noticed that, and we talked about more "middle ground" creativity, and creativity not directed to either an artistic expression purpose or a problem solving purpose
    Calvino Rabeni: in other words more like creativity "itself" in daily life
    Zen Arado: yes agree they are what comes to my mind too
    Calvino Rabeni: And many wanted to think of creativity in relationship to Necessity
    Calvino Rabeni: like - a way to save youself when pressed by circumstances, but otherwise something people would not do
    Calvino Rabeni: So that questioned whether creativity is an normal aspect of standard mind, or a kind of extra-ordinary activity to perform
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course I promoted the "normal and everywhere" notion of creativity
    Zen Arado: and thinking creatively would allow better ways of dealing with things maybe
    Susi Alcott: ah...so...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is one of the common ideas - I think, which is in the realm of necessity
    Susi Alcott: thinking that...it is to behave not expectide way...
    Calvino Rabeni: "how to deal with things"
    Zen Arado: we get stuck in mind patterns
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: that are logical but narrow
    Calvino Rabeni: Another common idea is that creativity has to do with "originality"
    Hokon Cazalet: i agree zen
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: The ability to have flexible intelligence and do something outside those narrow patterns and constructs - I would say is an aspect of creativity
    Zen Arado: but what is the best way to do it in eceryday life?
    Hokon Cazalet: a friend of mine in reply to your question zen, he tends to look at everyday objects, and imagines a "story" for them
    Susi Alcott: to let things to rise from heart/mind....
    Zen Arado: Hi Rinodp
    Hokon Cazalet: mine, in*
    Calvino Rabeni: The group discussion did manage to get to that question, Zen
    Hokon Cazalet: hi rinodp
    Calvino Rabeni: After taking the time to review all the "about" kinds of ideas, it seems time to get to the "how to be with it" ideas
    Susi Alcott: Hi Rinodp
    Calvino Rabeni: Everyone has a story about that, I believe.
    Calvino Rabeni: Writers, artists, event planners, the hosts of parties, people who want some new "spice" in their relationships, or want to freshen up their studies, etc. etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: And perhaps there are some things "in common" about all of those different manifestations of being creative
    Calvino Rabeni: since what they all have together is being a human with consciousness and so on
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, what drives people to stay in uncreative patterns?
    Zen Arado: I used to do jornal writing to try to be more creative
    Hokon Cazalet: sense of security id say calvino: it works, dont fix it
    Zen Arado: journal
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it is emotional issues that are unresolved
    Susi Alcott: might that mostly be the fear which is the obstacle to not to do based on own wishes
    Calvino Rabeni: In that the subconscious mind is occupied with some personal issues
    Zen Arado: fear and want to be secure
    Zen Arado: I often wonder that myself
    Calvino Rabeni: Things like being stressed or being tired, would get in the way
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe getting plenty of sleep before a creative project can free up some intelligence
    Calvino Rabeni: some people said, meditation really helped
    Calvino Rabeni: not by doing the creativity, but by making the mind more available
    Calvino Rabeni: Some said - go for a walk, get some fresh air, breathe
    Zen Arado: or by calming down the mind?
    Calvino Rabeni: in which case it would appear they are breaking up some rigidities in mind / body
    Zen Arado: allowing the creativity to get through the usual mind noise
    Calvino Rabeni: And on the other hand, some artists use their fears and emotional intensity to feed into the creative process and give it energy
    Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Susi Alcott: like Stephen King
    Calvino Rabeni: that is famous too as a driver -
    Hokon Cazalet: brb thirsty =)
    Zen Arado: they used to talk about left brain/right brain regarding this issue
    Calvino Rabeni: There are connections between creativity and a broad notion of sexuality - eros
    Calvino Rabeni: and human desires for expression and self-transcendance
    Calvino Rabeni: Another question was - can you "study" creativity - for instance, form a "creativity support group" with other people to assist with the creative process, even if you are not also working in the same medium as artist, writer, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: I would answer that question in the affirmative
    Zen Arado: interesting Cal
    Hokon Cazalet: back (reads chat log)
    Zen Arado: support the creativity of others
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Susi Alcott: wb Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ty
    Zen Arado: creativity needs a supportive environment I think
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree zen
    Calvino Rabeni: through inspiration and emotional energy, more than advice or problem solving
    Susi Alcott: well; they say that each artist needs a muse...
    Zen Arado: it can easily be killed off by negative comments
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it can kill creativity to meet with someone who says - I can solve your problem
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure Zen, not just the negative comments, but the instrumental ones
    Calvino Rabeni: Because then the mind goes back into a mechanical mode
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps one concerned with results
    Susi Alcott: well...builded something in SL such that I would've like to set if for sell....
    Calvino Rabeni: and in Ralston's themes perhaps, a kind of "survival"
    Zen Arado: all this is so true with painting
    Susi Alcott: but then one friend told how it should be this and that way better ...
    Calvino Rabeni: The mental and emotional energies of "expression" are at play in creativity
    Zen Arado: yes they kill your ideas Susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: which are a different kind of mind than rationality and problem solving
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: you know I have been thinking about this in different ways for years
    Calvino Rabeni: Another angle to look at it is - what is inspiring - what is inspiration - either in doing things creatively, or in observing someone else being creative
    Calvino Rabeni: @zen same here
    Calvino Rabeni: You know "maslow's needs hierarchy"?
    Hokon Cazalet: @zen, i have the past few months
    Zen Arado: remember vaguely
    Calvino Rabeni: Right it is a psych theory that says, activities range from survival, up through self-actualization
    Calvino Rabeni: In response to circumstances
    Calvino Rabeni: But one thing figured out by people yesterday in the discussion is that there is creativity at every one of those "levels"
    Zen Arado: self actualization was the highest level?
    Hokon Cazalet: yes zen
    Calvino Rabeni: so creativity is more like what we are, rather than what we Do
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree calvino, its part of who we are =)
    Zen Arado: being :)
    Zen Arado: an expression of what we are
    Zen Arado: but expressing involves doing
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a drive, an urgency or eros of expression toward self-transcendance
    Zen Arado: I am so trapped in 'results' thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: and I'd say it relates to "becoming" which is also the yang aspect of "being"
    Hokon Cazalet likes philosophy terms like becoming =)
    Hokon Cazalet: yes i would agree calvino
    Hokon Cazalet: i think creativity is a key aspect of our becoming
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: but then I think - becomimg what ?
    Hokon Cazalet: thats a good question zen =)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is paradoxical, but in one way we are constantly becoming, in order to approach what is called being
    Susi Alcott: more of what we know that we are
    Zen Arado: just my results orientation again :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Because everything is "impermanent"
    Hokon Cazalet: to answer that, we'd need a ontology (study of our being) of humanity
    Calvino Rabeni: Always arising is one aspect of impermanence, just as much as always disappearing
    Calvino Rabeni: Results orientation - right that makes sense as a more static perspective
    Zen Arado: I'm so conditioned to doing and trying to impress others with what I have done....
    Calvino Rabeni: Or justify self to self perhaps
    Zen Arado: has taken me years to allow myself to just paint what I like and not what pleases others
    Zen Arado: yes that too Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: It is great to have some creative process to engage in
    Susi Alcott: might that be 'in my language' just the normal need to get attention and careing....
    Zen Arado: yes Susi - makes sense
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's a nice way to regard it susi

Seeking attention and conditioning:

    Zen Arado: like shaking a rattle whan babies :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And I'd also think, it is not about how to "get" because caring and attention is not an object that can be acquired
    Zen Arado: never lose the rattle
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Susi Alcott: ah well...Zen...if I'de know that I'de have option to buy your panting, I'de ask you to paint me any item of crystal
    Calvino Rabeni: The rattle probably helps the baby keep from being "results oriented" :)
    Susi Alcott: as I truly have never seen so perfect 'painted' crystal but on as your painted
    Zen Arado: yes it please itself with the sound
    Calvino Rabeni: I knew someone who had to take the baby for a ride in the car for hours every night
    Calvino Rabeni: otherwise the baby would not rest or stop crying
    Hokon Cazalet: wow
    Calvino Rabeni: but it was contented while riding in the car
    Calvino Rabeni: and that seemed to be the only thing this desperate parent could do to get any peace
    Zen Arado: expensive pacification :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but... same idea as rocking, or the rattle
    Susi Alcott: ah...how about to take one self to ride when dont feel good ?...the 'baby' which is inside each one....
    Zen Arado: I was thinking more about how we learn to gain attention
    Calvino Rabeni: Even adults respond to the rattle - it is a great instrument for trance music
    Calvino Rabeni: :) susi yes good to know that
    Calvino Rabeni: Attention can't be gained and held - but wants to be in a relationship with someone
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: and sometimes will settle for the rattle, but the parent is more interesting
    Zen Arado: so''how to be creative without wanting results from it?
    Zen Arado: art for art's sake as they say
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Hokon Cazalet: i think it involves a specific mindset, one that ignores aspects common to normal perception and thought; such as "that object is a marker, that is a pencil" um what else (imo)
    Susi Alcott: well...if you'de enjoy of painting for me for example, would that be wrong to do that for resolt that I'de get happy ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, not just a hypothetical question Zen, one of practical importance
    Susi Alcott: (I'm very happy just knowing that you paint)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: nothing wrong with some instrumentality
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Calvino Rabeni: but not too much, not to dominate
    Calvino Rabeni: Imean, predominate
    Zen Arado: or it kills creativity
    Susi Alcott: true
    Hokon Cazalet: brb again, rl
    Zen Arado: middle way again :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Susi Alcott: 'just a crystal what rises from your heart/mind'

The 'Muse' :

    Calvino Rabeni: another idea that came up was the practice of the Muse
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be what Susi just mentioned
    Zen Arado: yes like in poetry
    Susi Alcott: even if it would be a space ship, to which not so many mind would connect crystal
    Calvino Rabeni: The muse as a practice of mind, interstingly also the same word applies to a kind of supporting spirit one may encounter as an artist
    Zen Arado: you can't force your Muse to produce
    Calvino Rabeni: No you can't
    Calvino Rabeni: but perhaps you can be inviting, or attractive, or set the stage, or be responsive then the Muse graces you with her presence, etc.
    Susi Alcott: ah...the muse 'just exist'...and inspires the artist...
    Calvino Rabeni: I would say a part of creativity is in preparation - preparing to be able to be inspired
    Zen Arado: yes yes
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: ah yes, and sure the muse is alwasy choocen by the artist
    Calvino Rabeni: You can't do that when narrow minded, grumpy,preoccupied, or emotionally "shut down"
    Calvino Rabeni: Etc.
    Zen Arado: it is giving it freedom to appear
    Calvino Rabeni: Receptivity is i think what I'm suggesting could be cultivated as an ability
    Zen Arado: that's why 'freewriting' works for me
    Zen Arado: just writing with no aim
    Susi Alcott: btw; think that 'the muse' dont even need to be any person; to work crativly for some certain idea ; that the idea can also be as the muse...
    Zen Arado: the Muse is really your inner creative self?

Dreams and creativity, going with the flow and 'the hour of the wolf':

    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps certain times of day work best for freewriting type things - I favor first thing in the morning - there seems to be still a connection with the underworld or whatever universal mind is part of sleep
    Susi Alcott: and different things 'awakes' it to come out
    Zen Arado: yes - first thing in the morning is usually recommended
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, in the morning,things have not yet awoken into full and determined form
    Zen Arado: and dreams linger....
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, the rigid habits are not entirely in place and on automatic pilot
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams linger as long as they are "able"
    Zen Arado: how about 'the hour of the wolf' ?
    Calvino Rabeni: What hour is that?
    Zen Arado: middle of the night when you wake up?
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, a great time
    Zen Arado: I sometimes feel very bad at that time though
    Zen Arado: all my worries and fears surface
    Calvino Rabeni: And referenceing another PAB session - where people used to be awake at night during that time and interact with each other
    Calvino Rabeni: the times before electric lights, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I've heard that also Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Insomnia, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps on a related note, there are people who say meditation is hard because it "brings things up"
    Calvino Rabeni: And others experience the opposite, that it lets things settle down and brings peace
    Zen Arado: yes - or it allows them to come up because the mind is deprived of its usual distractions
    Calvino Rabeni: It could go either way, apparently, and either way is an expression of being fully human
    Calvino Rabeni: Whatever happens is the right "result"
    Calvino Rabeni: because it actually isn't result-oriented
    Zen Arado: yes we allow it to be whatever it is
    Zen Arado: relax into it
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps there are layers and layers of "distractions"
    Zen Arado: so many distractions nowadays
    Zen Arado: we could reverse that lojong slogan about being able to practice when distracted
    Calvino Rabeni: THe 90-second pause is an opportunity to not be distracted
    Zen Arado: we actually look for distractions
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And logong might agree - do what you do but do it awarely
    Calvino Rabeni: conscious distraction
    Zen Arado: and do one thing at a time mindfully
    Zen Arado: instead of all this multitasking
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be a "be wholehearted" type of slogan
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Be committed - to this one now, leave the others
    Zen Arado: he he yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And give them full attention when their time is ripe
    Zen Arado: and stop reading 4 books at the one time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing connecting this - to creativity, is the question about keeping from being dissipated
    Calvino Rabeni: either by multitasking which can dissipate attention
    Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps by putting creativity into "lesser" things
    Calvino Rabeni: Instead of marshalling the creative energy together
    Calvino Rabeni: that woudl be a different kind of distraction
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Partly you notice the immediate effect of doing something, and its delayed effect
    Zen Arado: we have to use our energy in the best concentrated way
    Calvino Rabeni: in some cases holding off on expression may make it more powerful later
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: But not to be seduced into being "Results Oriented" :0
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: have to keep overcoming societal conditioning
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh yes, it is legion
    Zen Arado: like swimming upstream
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes like that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Going with the flow, is sometimes to succumb to that conditioning
    Calvino Rabeni: not a good thing
    Calvino Rabeni: some flows are healthy to go with, some deadening
    Zen Arado: depends what flow they mean :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Susi Alcott: brb
    Zen Arado: someone said 'only dead fish go with the flow' :)
    Zen Arado: this has been a long and interesting discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, fish are pretty smart about that kind of thing
    Calvino Rabeni: they know *everything* about flow
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: These 1AM sessions are middle of night for me
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes the hour of the wolf
    Zen Arado: I know
    Calvino Rabeni: 3 AM is a favorite time to meditate
    Zen Arado: I told others about my nightime horrors but they had never experienced that
    Zen Arado: maybe it is only as you get older
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a natural thing, if you could "google" the internal state of masses of people you'd find many "hits" on that experience
    Zen Arado: and you see your health deteriorate and you realize you won't live forever
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've been there
    Susi Alcott: b
    Susi Alcott: (roll the lines)
    Zen Arado: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Last time I recall that state of mind - it was somethng like - it is 3 am, something is wrong with my body and I don't know what it is, and I have no insurance, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Gaack
    Calvino Rabeni: But overall, in general, I rather like those night time states of mind
    Zen Arado: yes I suppose we haven't our usual distractions at that time either
    Calvino Rabeni: Even the "best" of experiences will be appropriated into some kind of "distraction"
    Zen Arado: sometimes a bad dream triggers the worry
    Calvino Rabeni: That is why it is good to "fast" or do "sabbath" occasionally
    Calvino Rabeni: Bad dreams can be surprising
    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of "rude" experience
    Calvino Rabeni: like - why me why now ....
    Calvino Rabeni: just when I had it all togther ... this!
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: That is how those things come
    Calvino Rabeni: and I sometimes thing this is how Death will appear also
    Zen Arado: guess we never 'have it all together'
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke some unexpected inconvenience
    Zen Arado: and have to realize that
    Susi Alcott: hm...what was my 'alert' to seek the way that I could help more people to learn to understand them nightmares, came when I learned how little people do understand them
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes they don't understand them. The dream is a message from the not-known
    Susi Alcott: that's why I worked in live radiocastings for 6 years
    Zen Arado: I always wonder how much importance to give them
    Zen Arado: you did Susi?
    Susi Alcott: the only 'purpose' I had in my mind was to help people to understand this;
    Susi Alcott: the worse nightmare, the better one deals with one's own irrelevant fears
    Zen Arado: you have to face them ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting Susi
    Susi Alcott: well; the nightmare is one's own creation that it would happen, because when meets such, it's to get rid of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Bertram Jacobus: /ne says silently : hello everybody ...
    Susi Alcott: as how else would 'teach' us more gently that our own spirit...
    Hokon Cazalet: hellos =)
    Zen Arado: some of my dreams are so silly
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert
    Susi Alcott: hello Bert
    Susi Alcott: dreams has not judment; no sillyness, no smartness...
    Bertram Jacobus: may i sit besides you hokon, so that you don´t so alone there at your spot ?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe sure
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
    Zen Arado: Hello Bert:)
    Susi Alcott: they are 'only' discussion with one's self
    Susi Alcott: (few tens of thousands people learned to love there nighmares instead of being afraid of them)
    Calvino Rabeni: The World Mind might be part of the conversation in dreams
    Zen Arado: well they make me feel so bad sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be a good result Susi
    Hokon Cazalet: i try and use my nightmares for a positive, lucid dream during them to try and calm myself, sort out my feelings/fears
    Zen Arado: yes Hokon
    Bertram Jacobus makes wishes that zen may become free from all bad feelings and dreams ...
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: I try to remember that it is only thoughts - not real
    Susi Alcott: and truly the
    Hokon Cazalet: sometimes thoughts have more meaning than reality i think =)
    Zen Arado: ty Bert :)
    Susi Alcott: 'message' from our own awareness; 'dont be afraid for this'
    --BELL--
    Susi Alcott: that awareness we dont be aware with our human mind
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, the presence of something in a dream, means you are now "able" to deal withit
    Bertram Jacobus: /you´re always very welcome zen, as you know i hope *smile* - and i like to add (become free) "as soon as possible, quickly" (!) ... _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: ah yes; it's not always needed to understand the meaning of the dream's sybols; one can always ask *what am I afraid of atm*
    Zen Arado: it points to a fear we have
    Calvino Rabeni: The dream is a Creative force
    Bertram Jacobus: sry for havin interrupted the silence - too unaware here ... no sound on also ...
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Creativity at work
    Zen Arado: all of them Cal?
    Zen Arado: I have such silly drteams
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say yes, but some are also mechanical
    Calvino Rabeni: But not purely so in either case
    Susi Alcott: even those we dont remember; but they had 'done there work'; those we wake up for or remember, has the message to seek
    Calvino Rabeni: Some few, seem to be the hinge of a new insight
    Zen Arado: I was driving a racecar last night :)
    Zen Arado: but it was electric :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Susi Alcott: how succefull you was ?
    Zen Arado: I was winning :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hope it wasn´t make you afaid also zen !? ;-)
    Susi Alcott: thinks such dream dont need any explonation :)***
    Zen Arado: I often dream of driving
    Zen Arado: but it;s beacuse I had to give riving uo a few years ago I think
    Zen Arado: give up driving I mean
    Zen Arado: fulfilling a wish maybe
    Susi Alcott: such dream tells that you have your life in your own hand; not obeying some others 'commands'
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t remember many dreams ... and if so, they are not very meaningful in my way of lookin at them - and mostly nice ... (!) - am thankful for that, naturally ...
    Susi Alcott: or letting some other to lead
    Calvino Rabeni: Beyond fulfulling a wish, I think dreams often say - this is still important, figure out how to create it in life as it is now
    Zen Arado: hmmm you might be right Susi
    Zen Arado: that too Cal
    Zen Arado: wise interpretations
    Hokon Cazalet: i like that calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: The dream mind is not results oriented. It is not satisfied if you decode its "symbols".
    Zen Arado: old anxieties often come up in dreams
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: The symbols mean, to reconnect you to some ongoiing live process
    Calvino Rabeni: a moving thing
    Susi Alcott: one such thing I'de feel to share that is very similar thing to all of the people, what comes to dreams
    Susi Alcott: as many people think that making love dreams are 'wishes to come true in dreams'
    Zen Arado: don't get enough of those :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, a symbol is not "instead of" something, but it desires to bring something into being in the present
    Calvino Rabeni: Well on one level they are fulfillment
    Susi Alcott: but that is also symbolic; if one makes love, one thinks the same way, if wants to, one would like to learn from that person, if one feels foreced to, one is attacked by that person as mentally
    Calvino Rabeni: but they may also be future facing and require some commitment
    Susi Alcott: but there's---for the reason I have never resolved to understand---an exeption
    Susi Alcott: but I know many women to suffer for that dream
    Susi Alcott: when dont know it's symbolism
    Susi Alcott: that is insest dream with own son; that dream's message is that the son has grown up to be independed man
    Zen Arado: sounds sensible interpretation Susi
    Calvino Rabeni: There are many dreams that may violate a taboo, but are quite powerful and positive in nature
    Zen Arado: i suppose there are common dreams to humanity
    Susi Alcott: yet I know women to whom the dream has automaticly made 'the distance' to notice that and let him to be the man....but for fear....untill the understanding replases the fear
    Susi Alcott: Hi Tab
    Hokon Cazalet: hey tabitha =)
    Zen Arado: Hi Tab
    Bertram Jacobus: i think about some teachings which say, our normal daily life wouldn´t be so much different to dreams, in a way ...
    Bertram Jacobus: hello tabitha ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The normal daily life is a subset of the dream
    Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like !
    Zen Arado: yes please do Tabitha :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: btw : i don´t know what those pillows are for (?) ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: can you see the cushios yet Tab?
    Tabitha Bakerly: yen
    Tabitha Bakerly: yes
    Zen Arado: they are slow rezzing for me lately I notice
    Bertram Jacobus: you simply can choose one of the brown or blue pillows here , click it right and then sit tabitha ...
    Tabitha Bakerly: ok
    Tabitha Bakerly: thanks
    Bertram Jacobus: ywv :-)
    Zen Arado: ordinary is said to be a kind of waking dream
    Zen Arado: life that is
    Bertram Jacobus: so nobody seems to know the meaning of those pillows aside - *smile* - but sry ! : did not want to distract from the "dream topic" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes zen, but what it´s said and what we experience ... i find it VERY important ...
    Zen Arado: it is our job to wake up from that dream
    Zen Arado: to see through it
    Zen Arado: I think
    Bertram Jacobus: when it is possible - i simply hope so ...
    Calvino Rabeni: The waking up would still be "here"
    Zen Arado: oh yes ...but knowing that so much is illusion
    Calvino Rabeni: It would give waking reality a greater openness of creativity and imagination, as in a dream
    Bertram Jacobus: (i´m no good believer or even no believer at all (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: do you have an example zen ?
    Susi Alcott: might you Bert also see much driving dreams; that you drive you car youself :)
    Zen Arado: just seeing concepts as concepts
    Bertram Jacobus: that would be good, then susi ? :o)
    Susi Alcott: that I cannot 'judge'
    Bertram Jacobus: i can
    Zen Arado: seeing things in a more open way than in our narrow concepts
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: love you susi (and all, at least try to , always)
    Bertram Jacobus: as often as i can *correcting myself)
    Zen Arado: feeling the whole experience?
    Susi Alcott: can change the name to be 'bert' writing the same line _/!\_
    Zen Arado: being open to people especially instead fo freezing them in a mould we make for them?
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ... vm ...

Questions, questions.....

    Bertram Jacobus: you tell the truth always in forms of questions zen ? ;-)
    Zen Arado: I seem to think in questions Bert :)
    Zen Arado: that's why I like philosophy I guess
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    Hokon Cazalet ? philosophy
    Zen Arado: it irritates people I know too :)
    Zen Arado: like poor old Socrates
    Calvino Rabeni: OK then a question then Zen :) Might I ask - in what ways could it be a good thing to be open to people?
    Bertram Jacobus: i prefere answers i like to admit - and may be therefor i like meditation and teachings about such stuff ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: we allow them to change Cal?
    Zen Arado: realize that they are not a solid self but a continuously changing organism
    Calvino Rabeni: The good questions have multiple answers don't they
    Zen Arado: allow them to grow and not holding to past faults
    Zen Arado: yes
    Susi Alcott: and allow them to 'teach' us
    Zen Arado: meditation is a kind of questioning to me
    Calvino Rabeni: That question - we're supposed to take it for granted - sure of course it is good to be open
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: in a unfinite reality - and my impression is - we live in such - always there are multiples of all kinds, also unlimited
    Zen Arado: I have reservations about openness too
    Bertram Jacobus: meditation is (a kind of) being to me
    Zen Arado: but also inquiry Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: can be but disappears in the end at last i´d say
    Zen Arado: seeing into your nature
    Zen Arado: yes Bert
    Susi Alcott: well; when is fully open to others, can receive sure all there is
    Calvino Rabeni: so true
    Zen Arado: too much openness too soon can cause us a lot of suffering too
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: in my experience anyway
    Susi Alcott: that still is also our own choice
    Zen Arado: Pema said that one time
    Zen Arado: we can open gradually as we are able to handle it is better
    Susi Alcott: and when ever there's the need to know; even sad truth is then better to know than not to know anything
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree
    Zen Arado: though some Buddhist teachers like Pema Chodron say we have an infinite capacity to receive other's suffering
    Susi Alcott: at least to me, to know, is very essential
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i´ll leave - ty for a wonderful talk ! like to eat a bit and such ... may all beings be happy please (!( ...
    Zen Arado: bye Bert
    Susi Alcott: enjoy bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-))
    Zen Arado: hey - I have been here over 3 hours now
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Susi Alcott: smiles
    Zen Arado: I better go:)
    Hokon Cazalet: aw
    Hokon Cazalet: byebyes
    Susi Alcott: aw
    Zen Arado: thanks for very interesting discussion to all
    Susi Alcott: enjoy your busy day _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: And I also - it really is 4:11 am here :) Thanks all for a great meeting
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: sure bye :)
    Hokon Cazalet: bye calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Susi Alcott: Good dreams Cal _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: TY
    Hokon Cazalet: .
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Hokon Cazalet: sorry for being kinda quiet the past few minutes, as i was listening in, i was fixing some stuff on a word doc i have, of all my current ideas =)
    Susi Alcott: ah please dont worry
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Susi Alcott: sound of silence is also good thing
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Susi Alcott: must also go now at least for a while
    Hokon Cazalet: okies
    Susi Alcott: wishing good time to you
    Hokon Cazalet: i should also, its 6:30am
    Hokon Cazalet: you too =)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_