2010.03.04 07:00 - Cheating

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

It was very tricky to think of a title for this varied discussion. So I cheated! To find how why and how, you have to read the whole thing! ;-)

I arrived on the hour and found Eden materializing! As she always appears at one edge or the pavilion, I position myself in the outer circle for a change, nearby to where she is.

Storm Nordwind: Greetings Eden! :))
Eden Haiku: Om mane padme hum Storm!
Eden Haiku: So happy to be able to attend your session!
Storm Nordwind: And so pleased to have you here
Storm Nordwind: Just the two of us so far
Storm Nordwind: And curiously you are hovering a little - let me see what I can do about that!
Eden Haiku: Oh yes, thanks. You remember i can't see through Sparkle.
Storm Nordwind: Yes.
Eden Haiku: Tarmel was saying I was hovering too the other day ...
Storm Nordwind: Well, it is just great to have you here, nevermind the technical niceties!
Storm Nordwind: A cool evening for you there?
Eden Haiku: Drinking honey ginger lemon tea in WiFi cafe, reading about Guhyasamaja tantra in Wikipedia...
Storm Nordwind: Sounds wonderful! Did you know that Jnanasiddhi is (I think) a commentary of that tantra? (At least in part)
Storm Nordwind watches as Eden vanishes

Eden's WiFi Cafe in Dharamsala was closing. But I was immediately joined by two other people, including someone I had not met before.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey storm
Storm Nordwind: Yakuzza - greetings!
Yakuzza Lethecus: how are you today ?
Storm Nordwind: Fine thank you. Spring seems to be arriving here: it is much warmer
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, we also don´t have any more snow
Yakuzza Lethecus: did you do some practice you define worth sharing ?
Vecelli Puddlegum: hello guys
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey vecelli
Storm Nordwind: Hello Vecelli. Have you been here before?
Vecelli Puddlegum: yes
Vecelli Puddlegum: twice
Storm Nordwind: Ah good. Then someone will have already asked you about publishing your presence and words on the web :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: yes
Storm Nordwind: You have found it intriguing enough to return though :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: don;t let me interrupt
Storm Nordwind: Ah... we have only recently arrived

We start talking about the basic Play as Being 9 second practice.

Vecelli Puddlegum: the idea is very interesting
Storm Nordwind: Have you given it a try yourself yet?
Vecelli Puddlegum: yes, a little
Storm Nordwind: How did you find it?
Vecelli Puddlegum: It is good to be stopping frequently
--BELL--

My new guest wants to hear the experiences of others... or is it just mine... oh well :)

Vecelli Puddlegum: I am interested in hearing more about your experiences
Storm Nordwind: When Play as Being started, nearly two years ago, many of us used to write our experiences frequently in blogs
Storm Nordwind: I think, as with all blogs, I got lazy!
Vecelli Puddlegum: :)
Storm Nordwind: I used to keep a notebook with me to record my PaB experiences
Vecelli Puddlegum: You don't look like the lazy type
Storm Nordwind: Oh! How do lazy types look? :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: all slouchy
Storm Nordwind: avatars can be deceiving ;)
Vecelli Puddlegum: ahhh, so they can
Storm Nordwind: For example, you present yourself as a sturdy man of muscle and experience, but for all I know you could be a slim young woman in real life - and slouching! ;)
Vecelli Puddlegum: ha ha
Vecelli Puddlegum: where's my sword?

I continue talking about blogging initial impressions.

Vecelli Puddlegum: sorry to interrupt..you were talking about blogs
Storm Nordwind: Ah yes...
Storm Nordwind: many were very interesting I found
Storm Nordwind: and the effects that the PaB experiences had on each person had remarkable variety
Storm Nordwind: There was, for example, the simple effect of so many 'stoppings' in the day...
Storm Nordwind: producing a sense of perspective...
Storm Nordwind: or simply a sustained relaxation...
Storm Nordwind: very individual...
Storm Nordwind: and with later and more extensive exercises we could investigate just who we were...
Storm Nordwind: using the PaB slogan: "Drop what you have in order to see who you are"
Vecelli Puddlegum: was the dropping of the blogs part of that?
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Storm Nordwind: No that's just laziness :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: that is a profound statement
Storm Nordwind: which one?
Vecelli Puddlegum: haha...the dropping what you have not the laziness
Storm Nordwind: yes. we carry so much baggage. so many assumptions. we let others define us sometimes. we put off being 'aware'
Vecelli Puddlegum: very good point

Calvino arrives, quickly followed by Fael and Archmage, and I realize our seating must seem rather haphazard.

Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome cal
Storm Nordwind: greetings Cal
Vecelli Puddlegum: Hello Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: hello :)(
Storm Nordwind: Please excuse my distance from the pool... we had our visitor from India earlier, hovering over the shadow, and I didn't want to be too far away from her
Storm Nordwind: Arch, Fael - welcome!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey feal, arch
Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: Hello Archmage and Fael

We briefly return to stopping and dropping.

Vecelli Puddlegum: The stopping then helps us see past all our baggage
Storm Nordwind: It seems to gives us a chance I think, yes Vecelli. Have you found that?
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Yak, Cal, Storm
Archmage Atlantis: Nice to meet you Vecelli
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: :) arch
Vecelli Puddlegum: I can see how it might do that
Archmage Atlantis: Song on Pandora is sing by Pete Seeger........My name is Lisa Kavelage
Storm Nordwind: By the way, we are talking about the effects we've experienced through the 9 second practice. I wonder if anyone else would like to share what their first experiences were when then started PaB practice :)
Archmage Atlantis: I began to hear the words to music in the 9 seconds

We lapse into silence for a while. I check our guest's expectations about that. He comments on our setting in Second Life. Arch insists on giving me credit beyond my due. And our guest leaves.

Storm Nordwind: sometimes, Vecelli, we're very talkative. and sometimes we just seem to enjoy the silence!
Vecelli Puddlegum: silence is good too
Vecelli Puddlegum: this is a very peaceful spot you have here
Calvino Rabeni: I sometimes hear the music to words @arch
Storm Nordwind: I have tried to make it so, Vecelli
Vecelli Puddlegum: You are in charge Storm?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Archmage Atlantis: He is, Vecelli......but he will deny it
Storm Nordwind: Oh no! But I have built many things here - planned and architected it a little
Archmage Atlantis: See
Storm Nordwind: The project was started by Pema Pera
Archmage Atlantis: I love the feet on the wisteria
Archmage Atlantis: Storm was the gardener and the architect
Storm Nordwind: At night Arch, when there's no one here, they take a stroll for a little exercise. Or so they tell me ;)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: There are so many people making contributions in Play as Being, so many hosts for example, that it really is a joint effort
Vecelli Puddlegum: I met some
Vecelli Puddlegum: a few
Archmage Atlantis: Yet Storm, there is always a center
Archmage Atlantis: To every circle
Storm Nordwind: And behind the scenes there are people organizing the automatic logging of our conversations, and organizing real world retreats etc... a lot of happy involvement!
Storm Nordwind: And if you were to ask Pema about that, Arch, I wonder what he would say. Would he say, for example, that Being itself was the center of the circle? Or perhaps the entire circle!? :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: Whoops, I must go. Thank you for the conversation
Storm Nordwind: Great to see you! :)
Vecelli Puddlegum: bye
Storm Nordwind waves
Fael Illyar: Have fun Vecelli :)
Archmage Atlantis: Grins.......he would say, imho, that bringing into being is to be
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye vecelli

Yakuzza takes up the conversation, and we meander, talking first about questions, learning and laziness...

Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, i was just thinking about loops and fears of talking
Fael Illyar: fear loops?
Yakuzza Lethecus: about my own fears to share thoughts because they might give a negative picture of myself
Calvino Rabeni: the loops that go round and round and don't go anywhere new
Yakuzza Lethecus: like before vic and storm talking about lazyness
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure you can´t see that from an avatar but i had to think about the meaning of lazyness and that i was never able to make that a topic when i was think about the topic of lazyness
Yakuzza Lethecus: like ,,what is lazyness" and is that really a good attitude for a lazy person
Storm Nordwind: Silence is no bad thing Yaku. Remembering the quote by Mark Twain...
Storm Nordwind: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
Calvino Rabeni: versus - the only stupid question is the one not asked :)
Storm Nordwind nods
Archmage Atlantis: It is better to be a fool and learn
Fael Illyar smiles.
Archmage Atlantis: It is more difficult I admit
Storm Nordwind: Many people learn best by listening and occasional interacting, rather than just talking

... and elaboration of thought...

Yakuzza Lethecus: my main issue is that i often don´t know how to place thoughts when i would like to elaborate further on them
Calvino Rabeni: flexibility in the moment...balances strategic planning. All plans break sometime
Storm Nordwind nods
Calvino Rabeni: yaku this seems like you are a careful thinker
Storm Nordwind: There's often no single right way to place thoughts. Amongst friends, as you are, there will be plenty of space for give and take and later those thoughts can be assembled as you wish :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know, because often it´s still to unelaborated because i often don´t stick to the topic and elaborate on the topics rather then to loop myself in selfpittyness until the pressure gets to high
Calvino Rabeni: look how random the rhythms are anyway, of talk here, compared to 1 on 1 talk.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." No one here will judge you. Perhaps just try it and speak anyway! :) We are all here for the same kinds of reasons.
Fael Illyar: there's nothing wrong with speaking unelaborated thoughts :)
Fael Illyar: Yaku's problem isn't fear that someone else would judge him. It's that he himself judges himself.
Archmage Atlantis: I suppose I am one who forces thought.......and that is why many run from me.......or perhaps I am just rude......hard to tell........I only know I could nor create this place as Storm and Pema have done.
Storm Nordwind smiles at Arch :)
Calvino Rabeni: considering self - what if - is self protective - but turning attention to the nonself situation is equally self-protective

What is a "safe" topic?

Yakuzza Lethecus: the major issue for me is somehow that i don´t want to break or maybe even create an atmosphere of trust and preserve that, so that ppl can truely answer to what i fear or think about
Yakuzza Lethecus: clearly mentioning our economic system last week wasn´t the best idea :9
Yakuzza Lethecus: the topic was to big and i admitted that i am a bit paranoid about such topics
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i don´t have a clue how to create conversations more constructive in a way that i am not to blurry for other ppl often
Archmage Atlantis: If you wished approval, Yak, then safe topics are few
Archmage Atlantis: and not very important
Calvino Rabeni: sure, there are topics people are disturbed about and don't know how to be very constructive about
Yakuzza Lethecus: i fear about spending money because many ppl are getting unemployed in my kind of job right now
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not even on reduced hours

Disapproval or disagreement?

Archmage Atlantis: If you wished conversationandthought, welll that means accepting disapproval
Fael Illyar: or disagreement?
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i fear that something negative ,,might" happen and i can´t get such thoughts out of my mind
Fael Illyar thinks there is a difference between disapproval and disagreement.
Archmage Atlantis: The same to many, Fael
Storm Nordwind agrees with Fael
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm maybe it´s because i often seek answers but i feel it´s worthless to ask the question because i don´t believe to get answers
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i don´t even share thoughts
Archmage Atlantis: what is life
Archmage Atlantis: life is a magazine
Yakuzza Lethecus: the appreaciation of appearences as represantation of being ? :)
Archmage Atlantis: what does it cost

... Seeds of positivity...

Calvino Rabeni: for example, one can share a thought about the problem with the economy, along with a seed of something positive
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i am usually very negative about everything
Calvino Rabeni: In addition to "lazyness", I think "complaining" is a pretty interesting topic for discussion :)
Calvino Rabeni: Every "negative" has a seed of reversal within it
Storm Nordwind is not sure anyway that life is (or even should be) a place full of answers! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually should we ,,just appreaciate life" ?
Calvino Rabeni: Every complaint contains a wish and an aspiration
Yakuzza Lethecus: where is the place for grasping ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: what do we really need ? how to preserve a positive tention together with contemplation
Storm Nordwind: I suspect "needs" and "shoulds" can be deceptive!
Archmage Atlantis: I was once told in a couples therapy session that if I was given 8 positive comments and 1 negative, the only one I would hear is the negative one
Calvino Rabeni: that might be an example of grasping :)
Archmage Atlantis: I still have that tendency, but now I am aware of it.
Calvino Rabeni: awareness changes things
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I think we are not here to be re-programmed to some specification, however ideal it might seem
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s also where i see pab, stopping watching
Yakuzza Lethecus: and having a few ppl to trust on conemplation because they take ,,contemplation" more seriously
Fael Illyar: We're here to build our specifications ... or perhaps dismantle them :)
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni raises the glass, to contemplation
Calvino Rabeni: I think, there's no theory for being short of being itself
Calvino Rabeni: that said, I am a believer in heuristics
Calvino Rabeni: simple principles that guide thought or coontemplation without defining them

... Knee-jerk responses to words and their meanings...

Yakuzza Lethecus: in my past further elaboration and discussion was often not possible because other ppl also didn´t know and there was constantly the issue of ,,just doing, stop talking" where should we take action and where should we stay and watch share
Calvino Rabeni: OK I hear that
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s hard to have the feeling to have to share something but being unable to say it
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am also concerned that my definitions aren´t that right
Yakuzza Lethecus: or how to split contemplative traditions from religions
Calvino Rabeni: the intention is more significant than the definition
Storm Nordwind: words are not the only available medium - they're just the one we use mostly here. But there is art, or all kinds too
Yakuzza Lethecus: i even fear the issue of habituated words with wrong definitions, like anarchy :)
Calvino Rabeni: words have many ways of use - important to remember - way beyond "defining" or "describing"
Calvino Rabeni: Words are Art
Yakuzza Lethecus: i always thought anarchy would be anomism and vandalism
Calvino Rabeni: Right, words have a trigger effect sometimes, for sure, to start an automatic response
Yakuzza Lethecus: never had the ,,need" to recheck something i thought to understand all days
Yakuzza Lethecus: or religion i have no clue about religious traditions as more as i read about them
Yakuzza Lethecus: i know more and i know that i knew what it was when i wasn´t aware of it
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i thought that i knew more about it
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: so my hopes are to somehow put some of my weirednesses back into a way of elaboration
Fael Illyar: Yaku... are you sure elaboration is the way?

We start to break up...

Calvino Rabeni: GOOD CHAT, I must AFK awhile
Archmage Atlantis: I am going home to my partner and lover.....I wish for each of you the same

... but first, The Campaign To Save The Irrational!

Storm Nordwind: Interesting choice of word - weird. Coming from the old word Wyrd, or simply "what is!" :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: with weiredness i meant that i am without concept and something unclear fears me
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye arch
Storm Nordwind waves to Arch
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i want to loose my irrationality
Fael Illyar: I guess he wants me with him, so, have fun :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye fael
Storm Nordwind: no no no - don't lose irrationality!
Storm Nordwind: Bye Fael!
Fael Illyar: yes, irrationality is not bad.
Fael Illyar: in fact, it might not even be irrational. You just can't see the whole picture.
Storm Nordwind: Who does?
Fael Illyar: but, have fun :)

Getting stuck...

Yakuzza Lethecus: the issue might be that i get totally stuck
Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes
Yakuzza Lethecus: while i can easily elaborate on topics i don´t even want to know
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have no efford remebering that you are ,,the fearless storm" :)
Storm Nordwind: haha!
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i can´t remember any math formula when i even notice that i just drift into negative emotions when i think about math
Yakuzza Lethecus: so it´s not one single topics where i often get stuck
Yakuzza Lethecus: and there comes mindfullness and dropping
Yakuzza Lethecus: but ,,forcing" doesn´t work
Storm Nordwind nods

How do we come up with ideas?

Yakuzza Lethecus: or even when you guys are planning to ,,act" and i just think ,,wow, how can they come up with such idea´s"
Storm Nordwind: I can tell you :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t elaborate on acting i just get stuck in a an ,,even pleasant feeling" of being impressed but exclude myself from any competence and won´t even start doing anything
Storm Nordwind: Competence is misunderstood I think
Storm Nordwind: For example...
Storm Nordwind: How do I come with ideas?
Storm Nordwind: The answer is simple
Storm Nordwind: I don't
Storm Nordwind: There are all borrowed or given
Storm Nordwind: I just look at where they might fit in to what I need
Storm Nordwind: and I adapt slightly
Storm Nordwind: but I cannot take any credit for originality
Storm Nordwind: I am just a conduit for other people's creativity! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often ask myself if not nearly all idea´s are just stolen from life
Yakuzza Lethecus: just somebody was able to find words for it
Yakuzza Lethecus: which he did´t invented
Storm Nordwind: sure
Storm Nordwind: What is there is already there. I think we often just rearrange the particles slightly! ;)

So there you have it. How do I come up with ideas? I cheat! And it's time to go.

Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, for the conversation!
Storm Nordwind: You too!
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now :)