2010.03.31 19:00 - Memory is not a Photograph

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

stevenaia Michinaga: HELLO
stevenaia Michinaga: didn't mean to shout
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pandora
stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
Pandora Pawpad: once
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back
Pandora Pawpad: ty
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Stevenaia
Calvino Rabeni: Back to summer wardrobe I see :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, no longer a chill in the air
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I just arrived from a mad dash to get here after a meeting,
stevenaia Michinaga: nice PaB shirt, did you make it?
Calvino Rabeni: It was made by Bleu
stevenaia Michinaga: a very creative and energetic soul
Calvino Rabeni: Quite true
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for the shirt
stevenaia Michinaga: now all I need is a cool breeze to wear it
Calvino Rabeni: Down by the sea you may find that
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back Pandora
Pandora Pawpad: ty
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Reflection , Lucinda
Reflection Freenote: hello steve
stevenaia Michinaga: people seem to be rezzing slowly for me tonight
stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
stevenaia Michinaga: Reflection?
Reflection Freenote: yes, I have, thanks
Lucinda Lavender: helo to all,
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pandora Pawpad: Hello :)
Calvino Rabeni: Always a pleasure, Lucinda
Lucinda Lavender: for me also
stevenaia Michinaga: I am just slowing down from my day, does anyone have a topic or thought they would like to offer?
Calvino Rabeni: Regular or leaded? Paper or Plastic?
stevenaia Michinaga: I prefer what can be reused or recyled rather than consumed :)
Calvino Rabeni: One thing to do in this situation is - look in the profiles of whoever is here, and guess one that might be if interest to someone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I was actually doing jsut that, reading about "Tabula rasa" , thank you Reflection
Calvino Rabeni: There are some "tried and true" topics also :)
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa
Calvino Rabeni: There are some kind of "where are you from?" type questions too
Calvino Rabeni: For instance - Hi, what brings you to Play as Being ?
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Eliza
Reflection Freenote: well, I don't usually find myself free during your usual hours, so was lucky tonight, so the answer is "randomness"
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve, Everyone :))
Calvino Rabeni: Hi ELiza]
Reflection Freenote: hello eliza
Pandora Pawpad: Hiii
Pandora Pawpad: Hi Eliza :))
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pandora, Nice to meet you :) I think we've met before, Reflection, nice to see you again
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Eliza
Pandora Pawpad: This is my friend Milton everbody. :))
Pandora Pawpad: He is very special to me. :))
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Milton :)
MIlton Zepp: Hi everyone
Reflection Freenote: hello milton
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Milton
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Lucinda, and Hi Milton, Welcome :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Is ths your first time here?
stevenaia Michinaga: Milton?
Eliza Madrigal: funny that we're all sitting on the outskirts tonight :)
Eliza Madrigal: Topic tonight?
Calvino Rabeni: I think of Aristotle's different types of Causes. Why we are here could turn out to have some subtleties
MIlton Zepp: Sorry was AFK
Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristot...he_Four_Causes
MIlton Zepp: Yes it my first time here
stevenaia Michinaga: is it ok if we include you words in our recording?
MIlton Zepp: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: But,a personal answer is somethng like "I found it by chance, I visited due to curiosity, andkept coming back because of the relationships that developed"
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: or I have an hour or so and this place fills this hour better than other activities might
stevenaia Michinaga: even in silence
Reflection Freenote: it certainly seems like a companionable place to meditate:))
Lucinda Lavender: I read some of the past discussions at the wiki last night anI read some of the past discussions at the wiki last night and felt inspired...
Pandora Pawpad: You all meet here daily?
Eliza Madrigal: Four times a day actually
Eliza Madrigal: :) Maybe not the same people...
Pandora Pawpad: Interesting
stevenaia Michinaga: there are 4 meetings a day, not everyone comes to every meeting
stevenaia Michinaga: but there is usually someone here to greet all
stevenaia Michinaga: and to post the logs of the meetings
Pandora Pawpad: Is this just a meeting of the minds to discuss relevant topics?
Eliza Madrigal: Lucinda, what sorts of things did you enjoy reading?
stevenaia Michinaga: and speaking of inspiration, I always find it remarkable how conversations begining in silence often results in wonderful word
stevenaia Michinaga: s
Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Steve
Lucinda Lavender: I read maybe the last week or so...discussions of power, dreaming, phenomenalogy, and play...
MIlton Zepp: Power Dreaming?
stevenaia Michinaga: from the void come great ideas and synergies
Calvino Rabeni: @Pandora, the topics become relevant by being interesting and important in some way to whoever is here
Lucinda Lavender: No power...separate from dreaming
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting. Thanks Lucinda... I may have missed the power logs
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pandora Pawpad: I see, ty
Lucinda Lavender: Calvino spoke of kinds of power...
Calvino Rabeni: I like the "meeting of the mids" when it happens :)
Eliza Madrigal: and the element of surprise.. that sometimes, even based on regular attendants with favorite topics, things will take an unusual or unexpected turn
Eliza Madrigal: there is always room for something new perhaps, though generally respectfully
Lucinda Lavender: randomly speaking...if we were to consider something we saw today...I curious how different those things would be...
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting idea Lucinda (framing the pause)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I liked that question - I visualized going the place I usually go during the day, then scanned over it to see if there was anything unusual that I saw along the familiar round - what would stand out?
Eliza Madrigal nods, me too
Eliza Madrigal: And? What did you find?
Calvino Rabeni: And what it was, a huge, immense, large tree, that I'd never seen before in the neighborhood
Eliza Madrigal: where you've lived a long while?
Calvino Rabeni: And I actually after passing it, did a U turn to go back to look at it more
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yidam :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Yidam
Eliza Madrigal: Guess you've not signed on since last night's session ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: But during the remembering, it seemed to do a good thing for my body
MIlton Zepp: Hi Yidam
Calvino Rabeni: just in terms of feeling and aliveness
Calvino Rabeni: not a big deal really, but perhaps, an everyday tonic
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what an interesting idea... that your noticing the tree was naturally nurturing?
Lucinda Lavender: the bigness of the tree was enlivening?
Calvino Rabeni: Energizing yes that is a kind of nourhshment
stevenaia Michinaga: spring does wonderful things to trees here
Reflection Freenote: maybe it is also, the stepping out of habit and into awareness which is refreshing?
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps you felt that?
Calvino Rabeni: It is ancient, takes up lots of space, gives presence and dignity to its surrundings
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, yes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes true, RF, a breaking of a habit of routine seeing
Lucinda Lavender: The browness of the bark and green of the brances?
Calvino Rabeni: Or what is slightly different, that this can be done in retrospect
Eliza Madrigal: To me it speaks to the abundance of nature... that we often feel lack, but scarcely notice what is resplendent in our very hands...
Calvino Rabeni: Who hasn't at some point, felt that there was a tyranny of memory as a fixed thing?
Reflection Freenote: indeed:))
Calvino Rabeni: And yet - if my "seeing" wasn't full the first time, and could have been different, why not the same, for memory also?
Reflection Freenote: it seems quite challenging to see with new eyes
Calvino Rabeni: So some true-but-latent possibilities in memory might emerge into being
Calvino Rabeni: Even after-the-fact seeing
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes moment to moment... even with 'old' memories
Calvino Rabeni: Because, I used to feel like - ah, I missed it the first time, not it is too late
Calvino Rabeni: which was a somewhat sad feeling
Calvino Rabeni: Because who can be fully present in experience?
Eliza Madrigal: We interpret and reform our memories anyway, as a natural course...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and why not enliven them, or let them develop and deepen with time?
Reflection Freenote: of course, if memory is constructed, then perhaps the creative force has more power there than in "reality"
Calvino Rabeni: Memory is not a photograph, especially one that slowly fades
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly... if we are filling in most of our experience...
Yidam Nightfire: what causes us to perceive a memory
Yidam Nightfire: ?
Pandora Pawpad: Excuse me I hate to inerupt the flow of udder nonsense but where can a lady take a piss?
Eliza Madrigal: Hah
Eliza Madrigal: Cheerio
Calvino Rabeni: Anywhere you like :)
Reflection Freenote: perhaps, much as we have less habitual constraint which acts upon our vision here, for the same reason?
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting Reflection, you mean in SL?
Reflection Freenote: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes, funny. We have a context (thinking also about yidam's question)... and we feel free-er, perhaps, to play with it here
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Lucinda... our capacity to remember what we experience may be sorely limited... seems it is
Reflection Freenote: it might be that actual stimulation powerfully engages our most dominant perceptual reflexes, but that the virtual stimulation of memory, or SL, leads to less dominant reflexive responses
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: What would be a reflexive response, Reflection (and are you good at those?) :)
Reflection Freenote: I think cal, that we are all very good at those;-)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's the concentrated aspect I often try to describe... that in SL it seems often a distillation... shot of whiskey, as it were
Reflection Freenote: a reflexive response is a conditioned habitual response or a neurologically simple response (like a knee jerk)
Calvino Rabeni: I see, I thought it was "reflection" in the sense of introspection about experience
Reflection Freenote: yes, eliza, about distillate, although, I think of it as a haiku, as opposed to RL being an epic poem
Eliza Madrigal: an interesting comparison!
Reflection Freenote: it seems the dominance of symbolism here allows for a laser-like specificity of meaning and response
Eliza Madrigal: a haiku seems little more than a sketch, and yet conjurs emotion beyond its means
Reflection Freenote: less is more
Eliza Madrigal: Today, what I noticed... thinking about ludinda's question... was a preciousness of sharing, in a session this morning... someone talking about a book's impact on their life in a way that conveyed an entire lifetime of experience
Eliza Madrigal: I felt very awestruck... one wants to take off their shoes :)
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that's a bit like encountering a grand tree which has been there all along?
Eliza Madrigal: Say more Lucinda?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this happens, in a way you "ate" the clouds
Calvino Rabeni: A similar effect in some way to having a cup of tea
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice
Eliza Madrigal: wb Yidam :)
Calvino Rabeni: It is a basic thing - what we see affects us including the whole body energy systems (endocrines, etc.)
Calvino Rabeni: And yet ... so many people just assume what we see is like a flat picture or a readout of "facts"
Eliza Madrigal: Well, how we see it? to one person graphiti (sp?) may be nurturing?
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: With no deeper impact
Eliza Madrigal: Hi jen :)
Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, "how" we see - is to a large degree up to us?
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome to PlayasBeing
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, Calvino :))
Jen Dix: hi just popped in for a minute. will have to come another time. thanks
Eliza Madrigal: What we take as facts, even
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Jen
Calvino Rabeni: I suppose, I'm interested more in the energetic effect, than in the "facts"
Reflection Freenote: perhaps we can cultivate creative ways of seeing
Yidam Nightfire: isn't energetic effect another "fact" of your perception?
Calvino Rabeni: The facts are what we make of them
stevenaia Michinaga: are there uncreative ways of seeing?
Reflection Freenote: there are a great many fascinating perceptual illusions for instance
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I would say I'm the same... paying attention to what drains vs what inspires, and further down... why
Eliza Madrigal listens
Reflection Freenote: steve, I think we have mostly habitual ways of seeing
Calvino Rabeni: There might be a fact *about* the energetic effect, sure, but the effect can happen regardless of whether "noticed" or not
Calvino Rabeni: One might make observations of the energetic effect, thus creating additional facts
Calvino Rabeni: @reflection, I do believe, we can cultivate creative ways of "seeing" :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dolma :)
Dolma Bosatsu: hi Yidam, Eliza, Reflection, Steve, Lucinda, and Calvino
Eliza Madrigal: Reflection, might you elaborate on 'perceptual illusions'?
Yidam Nightfire: is there a perception that is not an illusion?
Calvino Rabeni: Illusions of perception, to me, seem like the first step to creativity - as if saying (1) see, it isn't just-as-it-seems, and then suggesting going beyond that to (2) Ok, howabout doing something interesting with it then?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Dolma
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome
Reflection Freenote: the best known eliza are optical illusions, whcih are fun, because vision is our most precise sense, but easily fooled by artfully contrived lines, for example
Reflection Freenote: so we automatically perceive arrays in ways that are predetermined
Yidam Nightfire: so your illusions is a non-valid perception?
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes.... seems we can detangle until there is little to nothing there? ... seeing that nearly everything is built up in some way... so maybe we have freedom we don't realize... as in earlier considerations of the abundance of nature...
Reflection Freenote: correct yidam
Calvino Rabeni: Well, then, if there aren't any "valid" perceptions, why make the distinction of "invalid" ones?
Reflection Freenote: and I agree about all perception being illusion, but accurate illusions correlate meaningfully with some actual reality
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful discussion... think I need to sign off though... big day tomorrow :)
Calvino Rabeni: That seems pretty natural
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone :))
Yidam Nightfire: Thanks :)
Reflection Freenote: so long eliza
Calvino Rabeni: :) bye, eliza!
Eliza Madrigal waves. Night!
Calvino Rabeni: Isn't it existentially unpleasant, to achive the insight that some people promote, that there is no "self"?
Calvino Rabeni: :) Sorry
Reflection Freenote: www.michaelbach.de/ot/
--BELL--
Reflection Freenote: that is an especially large collection of fun perceptual illusions
Reflection Freenote: IDK calvino, I have found it somewhat liberating:))
Calvino Rabeni: Well, somewhat crudely, is there more to the game of liberation than "take away the fake"?
Reflection Freenote: that sounds pretty complete to me cal
Calvino Rabeni: My opinion is, it clears the deck for more alive, accurate seeing
Calvino Rabeni: but I don't see - liberation by being nothing
Calvino Rabeni: except in the negative sense of course
Reflection Freenote: "liberation by being nothing?"
Calvino Rabeni: Which would make "death" seem attractive?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the "no self" theories and the "everything is illusion" philosophies
Calvino Rabeni: I'm playing devil's advocate, pardon me :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, night all
Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well Stevenaia
Reflection Freenote: I think the concept is that pure being is joyous
Reflection Freenote: yes, I think it does
Reflection Freenote: categorization is the ultimately pragmatic illusion, but may lay at the root of suffering
Reflection Freenote: yes, certainly that, but probably not limited to that
Reflection Freenote: I've got to head out folks:)) Have a great evening, morning or afternoon, as the case may be:))
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the discussion, Reflection
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I like the buddhist work in phenomenology and psychology