2010.03.04 13:00 - Plato's cave

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend
    Lia Rikugun: hallo
    Lia Rikugun: moin
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello strannik
    Lia Rikugun: hello strannik
    Strannik Zipper: greetings!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Yaku, Lia
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey agatha
    Lia Rikugun: hello agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mr Zipper
    Strannik Zipper: Hi Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Nice name :)
    Strannik Zipper: Which?
    Agatha Macbeth: Zipper
    Agatha Macbeth: IMHO
    Strannik Zipper: ah yes ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Strannik Zipper: not many choices when I signed up
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah well...
    Agatha Macbeth: Such is SL
    Lia Rikugun: how are you all today?
    Strannik Zipper: not bad
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, I'm fine
    Lia Rikugun: very good :) happy to hear

    Strannik came back to PaB after some time ;)

    Agatha Macbeth: Have you been here before Strannik?
    Strannik Zipper: yes - I'm actually a neglectful guardian
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, i've never seen you before :)
    Lia Rikugun: i think we have met
    Agatha Macbeth: Strange I've never seen you...
    Strannik Zipper: RL can interfere for long periods of time ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: It can that
    Lia Rikugun: so now you have more time, great!
    Strannik Zipper: well, today at least
    Lia Rikugun: are you meditating as well strannick?
    Strannik Zipper: I quit one of my jobs ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: oh wow, why?
    Strannik Zipper: I do meditate
    Lia Rikugun: you have more than 1 job?
    Strannik Zipper: It was an internal struggle of the company directors of which I was one
    Agatha Macbeth: Heavy

    working as a musician and different instruments we play(ed)

    Strannik Zipper: I also have my own company and I'm a musician
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: wow cool
    Lia Rikugun: what instrument?
    Agatha Macbeth: No wonder you're so busy :)
    Strannik Zipper: voice - I'm a choir director
    Strannik Zipper: yeah! ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: hey nice!
    Lia Rikugun: where are you on tour?
    Strannik Zipper: not on tour right now
    Lia Rikugun: in the US usually?
    Lia Rikugun: or everywhere?
    Strannik Zipper: yes
    Lia Rikugun: in the whole wide world
    Agatha Macbeth: Wow
    Strannik Zipper: mostly California
    Lia Rikugun: ok :)
    Lia Rikugun: cool
    Lia Rikugun: i will have a concert this sunday
    Lia Rikugun: ;) I am taking classes for the transverse flute
    Lia Rikugun: haha and the pupils give a little concert
    Agatha Macbeth: What is a transverse flute?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: querfloete ?
    Lia Rikugun: a flute that goes to your right side metallic
    Lia Rikugun: yes yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Strannik Zipper: it plays a backwards scale
    Agatha Macbeth: Different from a normal flute then Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: http://www.woodbrass.com/images/wood...HA+YFL+281.jpg
    Lia Rikugun: maybe an image is better
    Lia Rikugun: there are all kind of flutes
    Lia Rikugun: i wouldnt say rhere is a normal flute
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, thanks
    Strannik Zipper: I play the blockflute - badly
    Lia Rikugun: ah nice too :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I thought they were made of wood
    Lia Rikugun: yes some are
    Lia Rikugun: and maybe they were in the past
    Lia Rikugun: but i am not so familiar with the history
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when i was at elementary school ours were still out of wood
    Agatha Macbeth: I always wished I could play the piano
    Lia Rikugun: oh yes the blockflute is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, sry was just thinking about the blockflute and not the transverse...

    the movie avatar, great story: the navi living in peace with the nature

    Strannik Zipper: So who has seen the movie "Avatar"?
    Lia Rikugun: i did
    Lia Rikugun: was great! in 3D
    Yakuzza Lethecus raises his finger
    Lia Rikugun: loved the story too
    Lia Rikugun: how the navi live in the nature in oeace
    Lia Rikugun: oh who did not watch the movie?
    Lia Rikugun: maybe i shouldnt tell too much
    Strannik Zipper: I want to put forth a query related to the film, but if someone hasn't seen it I won't include "spoilers"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: go ahead
    Lia Rikugun: we will post the log afterwards so i need to make it unclear :)
    Strannik Zipper: ah yes
    Lia Rikugun: but please go ahead
    Strannik Zipper: Well it won't spoil anything if I describe that a great part of the film takes place in a natural wonderland where people live in harmony with a beautiful nature
    Lia Rikugun: yes!
    Lia Rikugun: wonderful

    "post avatar depression"

    Strannik Zipper: There was a story in the news recently that described a phenomena they are calling "post avatar depression"
    Strannik Zipper: something like coming down from an acid trip where everything was so beautiful, and the world looks rather grey afterwards
    Lia Rikugun: this is interesting
    Lia Rikugun: did you feel the same way?
    Strannik Zipper: one man was so depressed, he was tempted to commit suicide in hopes that he would leave his world of pain and be reborn in Pandora somehow
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, there is a pandora sim in second life
    Lia Rikugun: ? oh this is terrible
    Lia Rikugun: but he didnt
    Lia Rikugun: maybe the idea to bring a little bit of the movie back to RL would be good
    Strannik Zipper: I have just come back from a lovely hike in the redwood rain forest, so I am feeling a bit like I just emerged from something very nice
    Agatha Macbeth: Something similar can happen to people when they return from a retreat, unfortunately
    Lia Rikugun: keep the atmosphere of pandora in your heart and thereofre bring it here
    Lia Rikugun: yesyes agatha
    Strannik Zipper: and I see in this "depression" a sort of profound disconnect from reality
    Lia Rikugun: can u say more strannik?
    Agatha Macbeth: Same kind of phenomenon probably
    Strannik Zipper: at the same time, I think we do naturallyh hearken to be more in touch with nature in a peaceful way
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Stormy!
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Lia Rikugun: hey hey storm
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey storm
    Strannik Zipper: so perhaps this "depression" is a result of getting in touch with that
    Strannik Zipper: Hi Storm
    Lia Rikugun: what you really want to do
    Lia Rikugun: but somehow you forgot
    Lia Rikugun: storm we are talking about the movie avatar
    Strannik Zipper: But it also ocurred to me that the immersive nature of the film (great visuals, 3d etc) has an effect on people that some are not ready for
    Lia Rikugun: and how pandora is such a wonderful place where people live peacefully in the nature
    Lia Rikugun: hello mick
    Strannik Zipper: some of us are easily manipulated by such experiences
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Strannik Zipper: Hi Mick
    Lia Rikugun: mick we are talking about the movie avatar, that some people might feel depressed when seeing the wonderful nature and navi and then returning back to RL
    Strannik Zipper: I suppose that people also experience this from SL, other realms and even their own thoughts and dreams
    Mickorod Renard: well, I saw the movie as just a movie,,very good but thats about all
    Lia Rikugun: i think that is a big danger of SL

    how people get affected and in which ways

    Agatha Macbeth: Different things affrect different people on various levels
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it was just dancing with wolfes in space with great effects
    Agatha Macbeth: affect
    Storm Nordwind has not seen the movie and is waiting instead for Tim Burton's offering
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha - Yakuzza and Storm
    Yakuzza Lethecus: alice :)
    Strannik Zipper: What is interesting is how a simulated experience can alter one's perception of the world
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Mickorod Renard: I was impressed with the technicalities of avatar,,a milestone in movie technique,,and unusual for me I didnt fall asleep in it,,top marks
    Strannik Zipper: it definitely raised the bar on visuals
    Lia Rikugun: it is always an experience, something is happening with you
    Lia Rikugun: if its simulated or not, imagined or not
    Agatha Macbeth: I still prefer Star Wars ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: this is my experience ;)
    Strannik Zipper: Lia - that makes sense

    our experiences in relation to Plato's Cave

    Strannik Zipper: Let me throw in one more monkey wrench - how do these experiences which affect us relate to Plato's Cave?
    Lia Rikugun: can you say a little bit more about the cave please
    Lia Rikugun: i heard it before but forgot now
    Mickorod Renard: I will look forward to seeing Alice,,and to whether it has mathematical conundrums sewn into the story
    Agatha Macbeth: I'll have to ring Plate and ask :0
    Lia Rikugun: oh the shadow
    Lia Rikugun: on the wall
    Agatha Macbeth: Plato
    Lia Rikugun: his own shadow
    Lia Rikugun: yes?
    Lia Rikugun: an he is afraid
    Lia Rikugun: no? yes? maybe?
    Agatha Macbeth: (Or Pluto)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Strannik Zipper: right - people see shadows on the wall, which are but projections of what is happening outside the cave
    Lia Rikugun: oh not his own right
    Strannik Zipper: the shadows are mistaken for the only reality
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Lia Rikugun: so much for the background
    Strannik Zipper: and for Plato, a way of waking up is to walk outside the cave and trace the projections to their source
    Lia Rikugun: yes
    Mickorod Renard: mmmm my brain isnt working too well
    Agatha Macbeth: Mine never does
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Strannik Zipper: If one of those shadows is keeping someone in a state (e.g. fear), and then one traces the projection back to the source, one might experience a freedom from the influence of that experience or shadow
    Storm Nordwind: What is this 'brain' thing I keep hearing about?
    Lia Rikugun: i think that is what we are trying to do, just where is the exit of the cave, which direction to go?
    Mickorod Renard: what are we expecting to find?
    Agatha Macbeth: A kind of enlightenment then?
    Strannik Zipper: we look at the shadows, to see where the light is coming from?
    Agatha Macbeth: (No pun intended)

    having a fear: should we pursue it or stop?

    Lia Rikugun: so when having a fear we should pursue it?
    Strannik Zipper: I don't know about should, but we could
    Agatha Macbeth: Or at least try to pin down its source
    Lia Rikugun: yes this is what i am thinking of the last days too
    Lia Rikugun: having some concerns
    Mickorod Renard: there is always a risk of digging a bigger hole by pursuing things that we suspect are wrong
    Lia Rikugun: about meditation and playing with the consciousness which can be maybe dangerous
    Lia Rikugun: so some fears come up
    Lia Rikugun: either to stop or to continue?
    Mickorod Renard: I think its not such a bad idea to pursue something we feel is right
    Agatha Macbeth: Is it better to face fear or run away from it?
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!

    turn the awareness around into an observing position

    Strannik Zipper: I was thinking about a situation - work or whatever - I have a problem with someone or something, it is a source of irritation or whatever
    Strannik Zipper: And I want to deal with the person or situation
    Strannik Zipper: but instead I try to turn the awareness around to whhere this irritation or thought is coming from
    Mickorod Renard: I like diplomacy but not if it entails living in a lie
    Lia Rikugun: yes strannik
    Lia Rikugun: from a kind of different perspective, the objective perspective?
    Lia Rikugun: analyze the situation?
    Strannik Zipper: shining the spotlight back on the lighting technician
    Strannik Zipper: analysis might just be another thought of the same kind
    Lia Rikugun: this is what i try too, if i understand you correctly
    Lia Rikugun: to see why i am thinking in this or that way
    Lia Rikugun: or why i am feeling this way etc
    Lia Rikugun: where did this come from
    Strannik Zipper: just look at the thought/feeling/experience withoug trying to do anything
    Agatha Macbeth: We bored Storm :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Strannik Zipper: hehehe
    Mickorod Renard: we do something like this from being able to take the 9 seconds out
    Lia Rikugun: so what did you learn strannick?
    Agatha Macbeth: Or 90
    Strannik Zipper: right
    Mickorod Renard: I do it at work often,,remove myself from the inward situation and view from the exterior
    Lia Rikugun: and?
    Lia Rikugun: what is your expereince?
    Mickorod Renard: it looks completely diiferent
    Strannik Zipper: a lot of stuff dissipates under the light
    Mickorod Renard: whilst stood in an awkward scenario,,9 seconds detachment is all it takes
    Lia Rikugun: wow :)
    Mickorod Renard: dont need 90
    Strannik Zipper: it creates space
    Agatha Macbeth: Count to ten as they say
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Strannik Zipper: one sees the maze of thought from above and can find the way out ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: (And take a few deep breaths)

    thinking during the break of 10 seconds where you get into the observing position

    Mickorod Renard: but do some thinking in the time,,dont just stew
    Strannik Zipper: Mick - could you say more about not stewing?
    Mickorod Renard: it sometimes is nes to view onself as a diferent person as well,,other wise u are not nutral
    arabella Ella: yes what is stewing?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,u cud take the count and just build resentment..but what I think is useful is to use the time objectivelty
    Mickorod Renard: look down from above or whatever
    arabella Ella: being seeing as Pema used to say
    Mickorod Renard: even see ones own intransigence
    Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera QT
    Lia Rikugun: hello Qt
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Qt
    arabella Ella: ciao Qt come stai?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt :)
    Qt Core: hi all, 'sera Agatha
    Qt Core: bene, tu ara ?
    arabella Ella: molto bene grazie Qt!
    Lia Rikugun: i think i understand mick, thank you
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Qt Core: sorry for the interruption (and being late) which is thi session topic ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
    Lia Rikugun: i somehow see it as me as an observer
    Mickorod Renard: hi cal

    soon several leave to go to Vector's new workshop Cafh

    Storm Nordwind slips away to check that Vector's new workshop is ready to go on the hour
    Calvino Rabeni: hi all :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: bye storm
    Agatha Macbeth: Be seeing you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye storm
    Lia Rikugun: hey calvino
    Lia Rikugun: bye storm
    Storm Nordwind: Bye. Come along to Cafh if you want!
    arabella Ella: they are discussing stepping back when in a difficult situation and taking time out to see it from a more objective perspective
    arabella Ella: bye Storm
    arabella Ella: rather than building up more resentment for example
    arabella Ella: (hope I got it right)
    Strannik Zipper: we started by talking out being stuck in a determined sense of reality
    Calvino Rabeni: good move
    Qt Core: nice, i usually end up doing both ;-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: Stran brought up Plato's cave
    Mickorod Renard: u know it Ara?
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: does it relate?
    arabella Ella: possibly yes
    arabella Ella: for Plato there is an ideal form of everything that exists
    Mickorod Renard: I may have steered us off track
    Strannik Zipper: one could feel stuck in a world of insubstantial shadows
    arabella Ella: but we can never know the 'ideal form' of things
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am also slipping away, curious about the cafh intro session
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    arabella Ella: we only see things from our human perspective like shadows lit by a fire in a cave
    Mickorod Renard: bye Yaku
    Agatha Macbeth: See you there Yaku
    arabella Ella: what is the session about Agatha?
    arabella Ella: oh just got notecard :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Not sure myself Ara
    Mickorod Renard: shall we all have a look?
    arabella Ella: sounds interesting
    Strannik Zipper: but Plato suggests the possibility of following the light back to its source and seeing what is being projected
    Agatha Macbeth: In fact, think i'll go find out :)
    Lia Rikugun: willg o too
    Agatha Macbeth: By all
    Strannik Zipper: where is it?
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye even
    Lia Rikugun: and take a look
    Agatha Macbeth: Kira
    Mickorod Renard: bye \Ags
    arabella Ella: but ... according to Plato and later Kant ... we can never know reality as it really is ... 'in itself'
    Lia Rikugun: yes kira acfe
    arabella Ella: the session is at Kira Cafe
    Lia Rikugun: you have a landmark strannik?
    Strannik Zipper: ah
    Strannik Zipper: yes
    Lia Rikugun: ok great
    Strannik Zipper: although I will actually have to get back to RL soon
    Strannik Zipper: nice chatting!
    arabella Ella: I'm off to Kira then bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,scuse me Stran,,we are all keen to test the waters
    Qt Core: me too ;-)
    Strannik Zipper: right
    Strannik Zipper: laters!
    Qt Core: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: bye
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