2010.03.04 13:00 - Plato's cave

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend
Lia Rikugun: hallo
Lia Rikugun: moin
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello strannik
Lia Rikugun: hello strannik
Strannik Zipper: greetings!
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Yaku, Lia
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey agatha
Lia Rikugun: hello agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mr Zipper
Strannik Zipper: Hi Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Nice name :)
Strannik Zipper: Which?
Agatha Macbeth: Zipper
Agatha Macbeth: IMHO
Strannik Zipper: ah yes ;-)
Agatha Macbeth grins
Strannik Zipper: not many choices when I signed up
Agatha Macbeth: Ah well...
Agatha Macbeth: Such is SL
Lia Rikugun: how are you all today?
Strannik Zipper: not bad
Lia Rikugun: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Well, I'm fine
Lia Rikugun: very good :) happy to hear

Agatha Macbeth: Have you been here before Strannik?
Strannik Zipper: yes - I'm actually a neglectful guardian
Agatha Macbeth: Ah!
Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, i've never seen you before :)
Lia Rikugun: i think we have met
Agatha Macbeth: Strange I've never seen you...
Strannik Zipper: RL can interfere for long periods of time ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: It can that
Lia Rikugun: so now you have more time, great!
Strannik Zipper: well, today at least
Lia Rikugun: are you meditating as well strannick?
Strannik Zipper: I quit one of my jobs ;-)
Lia Rikugun: oh wow, why?
Strannik Zipper: I do meditate
Lia Rikugun: you have more than 1 job?
Strannik Zipper: It was an internal struggle of the company directors of which I was one
Agatha Macbeth: Heavy

Strannik Zipper: I also have my own company and I'm a musician
Lia Rikugun: hm
Lia Rikugun: wow cool
Lia Rikugun: what instrument?
Agatha Macbeth: No wonder you're so busy :)
Strannik Zipper: voice - I'm a choir director
Strannik Zipper: yeah! ;-)
Lia Rikugun: hey nice!
Lia Rikugun: where are you on tour?
Strannik Zipper: not on tour right now
Lia Rikugun: in the US usually?
Lia Rikugun: or everywhere?
Strannik Zipper: yes
Lia Rikugun: in the whole wide world
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Strannik Zipper: mostly California
Lia Rikugun: ok :)
Lia Rikugun: cool
Lia Rikugun: i will have a concert this sunday
Lia Rikugun: ;) I am taking classes for the transverse flute
Lia Rikugun: haha and the pupils give a little concert
Agatha Macbeth: What is a transverse flute?
Yakuzza Lethecus: querfloete ?
Lia Rikugun: a flute that goes to your right side metallic
Lia Rikugun: yes yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Strannik Zipper: it plays a backwards scale
Agatha Macbeth: Different from a normal flute then Lia?
Lia Rikugun: http://www.woodbrass.com/images/wood...HA+YFL+281.jpg
Lia Rikugun: maybe an image is better
Lia Rikugun: there are all kind of flutes
Lia Rikugun: i wouldnt say rhere is a normal flute
Lia Rikugun: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, thanks
Strannik Zipper: I play the blockflute - badly
Lia Rikugun: ah nice too :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Agatha Macbeth: I thought they were made of wood
Lia Rikugun: yes some are
Lia Rikugun: and maybe they were in the past
Lia Rikugun: but i am not so familiar with the history
Yakuzza Lethecus: when i was at elementary school ours were still out of wood
Agatha Macbeth: I always wished I could play the piano
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: oh yes the blockflute is
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, sry was just thinking about the blockflute and not the transverse...

Strannik Zipper: So who has seen the movie "Avatar"?
Lia Rikugun: i did
Lia Rikugun: was great! in 3D
Yakuzza Lethecus raises his finger
Lia Rikugun: loved the story too
Lia Rikugun: how the navi live in the nature in oeace
Lia Rikugun: oh who did not watch the movie?
Lia Rikugun: maybe i shouldnt tell too much
Strannik Zipper: I want to put forth a query related to the film, but if someone hasn't seen it I won't include "spoilers"
Yakuzza Lethecus: go ahead
Lia Rikugun: we will post the log afterwards so i need to make it unclear :)
Strannik Zipper: ah yes
Lia Rikugun: but please go ahead
Strannik Zipper: Well it won't spoil anything if I describe that a great part of the film takes place in a natural wonderland where people live in harmony with a beautiful nature
Lia Rikugun: yes!
Lia Rikugun: wonderful

Strannik Zipper: There was a story in the news recently that described a phenomena they are calling "post avatar depression"
Strannik Zipper: something like coming down from an acid trip where everything was so beautiful, and the world looks rather grey afterwards
Lia Rikugun: this is interesting
Lia Rikugun: did you feel the same way?
Strannik Zipper: one man was so depressed, he was tempted to commit suicide in hopes that he would leave his world of pain and be reborn in Pandora somehow
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, there is a pandora sim in second life
Lia Rikugun: ? oh this is terrible
Lia Rikugun: but he didnt
Lia Rikugun: maybe the idea to bring a little bit of the movie back to RL would be good
Strannik Zipper: I have just come back from a lovely hike in the redwood rain forest, so I am feeling a bit like I just emerged from something very nice
Agatha Macbeth: Something similar can happen to people when they return from a retreat, unfortunately
Lia Rikugun: keep the atmosphere of pandora in your heart and thereofre bring it here
Lia Rikugun: yesyes agatha
Strannik Zipper: and I see in this "depression" a sort of profound disconnect from reality
Lia Rikugun: can u say more strannik?
Agatha Macbeth: Same kind of phenomenon probably
Strannik Zipper: at the same time, I think we do naturallyh hearken to be more in touch with nature in a peaceful way
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Stormy!
Storm Nordwind waves
Lia Rikugun: hey hey storm
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey storm
Strannik Zipper: so perhaps this "depression" is a result of getting in touch with that
Strannik Zipper: Hi Storm
Lia Rikugun: what you really want to do
Lia Rikugun: but somehow you forgot
Lia Rikugun: storm we are talking about the movie avatar
Strannik Zipper: But it also ocurred to me that the immersive nature of the film (great visuals, 3d etc) has an effect on people that some are not ready for
Lia Rikugun: and how pandora is such a wonderful place where people live peacefully in the nature
Lia Rikugun: hello mick
Strannik Zipper: some of us are easily manipulated by such experiences
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Strannik Zipper: Hi Mick
Lia Rikugun: mick we are talking about the movie avatar, that some people might feel depressed when seeing the wonderful nature and navi and then returning back to RL
Strannik Zipper: I suppose that people also experience this from SL, other realms and even their own thoughts and dreams
Mickorod Renard: well, I saw the movie as just a movie,,very good but thats about all
Lia Rikugun: i think that is a big danger of SL

Agatha Macbeth: Different things affrect different people on various levels
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it was just dancing with wolfes in space with great effects
Agatha Macbeth: affect
Storm Nordwind has not seen the movie and is waiting instead for Tim Burton's offering
Strannik Zipper: hahaha - Yakuzza and Storm
Yakuzza Lethecus: alice :)
Strannik Zipper: What is interesting is how a simulated experience can alter one's perception of the world
Agatha Macbeth nods
Mickorod Renard: I was impressed with the technicalities of avatar,,a milestone in movie technique,,and unusual for me I didnt fall asleep in it,,top marks
--BELL--
Strannik Zipper: it definitely raised the bar on visuals
Lia Rikugun: it is always an experience, something is happening with you
Lia Rikugun: if its simulated or not, imagined or not
Agatha Macbeth: I still prefer Star Wars ;-)
Lia Rikugun: this is my experience ;)
Strannik Zipper: Lia - that makes sense

Strannik Zipper: Let me throw in one more monkey wrench - how do these experiences which affect us relate to Plato's Cave?
Lia Rikugun: can you say a little bit more about the cave please
Lia Rikugun: i heard it before but forgot now
Mickorod Renard: I will look forward to seeing Alice,,and to whether it has mathematical conundrums sewn into the story
Agatha Macbeth: I'll have to ring Plate and ask :0
Lia Rikugun: oh the shadow
Lia Rikugun: on the wall
Agatha Macbeth: Plato
Lia Rikugun: his own shadow
Lia Rikugun: yes?
Lia Rikugun: an he is afraid
Lia Rikugun: no? yes? maybe?
Agatha Macbeth: (Or Pluto)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Strannik Zipper: right - people see shadows on the wall, which are but projections of what is happening outside the cave
Lia Rikugun: oh not his own right
Strannik Zipper: the shadows are mistaken for the only reality
Lia Rikugun: ok
Lia Rikugun: so much for the background
Strannik Zipper: and for Plato, a way of waking up is to walk outside the cave and trace the projections to their source
Lia Rikugun: yes
Mickorod Renard: mmmm my brain isnt working too well
Agatha Macbeth: Mine never does
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Strannik Zipper: If one of those shadows is keeping someone in a state (e.g. fear), and then one traces the projection back to the source, one might experience a freedom from the influence of that experience or shadow
Storm Nordwind: What is this 'brain' thing I keep hearing about?
Lia Rikugun: i think that is what we are trying to do, just where is the exit of the cave, which direction to go?
Mickorod Renard: what are we expecting to find?
Agatha Macbeth: A kind of enlightenment then?
Strannik Zipper: we look at the shadows, to see where the light is coming from?
Agatha Macbeth: (No pun intended)

Lia Rikugun: so when having a fear we should pursue it?
Strannik Zipper: I don't know about should, but we could
Agatha Macbeth: Or at least try to pin down its source
Lia Rikugun: yes this is what i am thinking of the last days too
Lia Rikugun: having some concerns
Mickorod Renard: there is always a risk of digging a bigger hole by pursuing things that we suspect are wrong
Lia Rikugun: about meditation and playing with the consciousness which can be maybe dangerous
Lia Rikugun: so some fears come up
Lia Rikugun: either to stop or to continue?
Mickorod Renard: I think its not such a bad idea to pursue something we feel is right
Agatha Macbeth: Is it better to face fear or run away from it?
Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!

Strannik Zipper: I was thinking about a situation - work or whatever - I have a problem with someone or something, it is a source of irritation or whatever
Strannik Zipper: And I want to deal with the person or situation
Strannik Zipper: but instead I try to turn the awareness around to whhere this irritation or thought is coming from
Mickorod Renard: I like diplomacy but not if it entails living in a lie
Lia Rikugun: yes strannik
Lia Rikugun: from a kind of different perspective, the objective perspective?
Lia Rikugun: analyze the situation?
Strannik Zipper: shining the spotlight back on the lighting technician
Strannik Zipper: analysis might just be another thought of the same kind
Lia Rikugun: this is what i try too, if i understand you correctly
Lia Rikugun: to see why i am thinking in this or that way
Lia Rikugun: or why i am feeling this way etc
Lia Rikugun: where did this come from
Strannik Zipper: just look at the thought/feeling/experience withoug trying to do anything
Agatha Macbeth: We bored Storm :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Strannik Zipper: hehehe
Mickorod Renard: we do something like this from being able to take the 9 seconds out
Lia Rikugun: so what did you learn strannick?
Agatha Macbeth: Or 90
Strannik Zipper: right
Mickorod Renard: I do it at work often,,remove myself from the inward situation and view from the exterior
Lia Rikugun: and?
Lia Rikugun: what is your expereince?
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: it looks completely diiferent
Strannik Zipper: a lot of stuff dissipates under the light
Mickorod Renard: whilst stood in an awkward scenario,,9 seconds detachment is all it takes
Lia Rikugun: wow :)
Mickorod Renard: dont need 90
Strannik Zipper: it creates space
Agatha Macbeth: Count to ten as they say
Mickorod Renard: yes
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Strannik Zipper: one sees the maze of thought from above and can find the way out ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: (And take a few deep breaths)

Mickorod Renard: but do some thinking in the time,,dont just stew
Strannik Zipper: Mick - could you say more about not stewing?
Mickorod Renard: it sometimes is nes to view onself as a diferent person as well,,other wise u are not nutral
arabella Ella: yes what is stewing?
Mickorod Renard: well,,u cud take the count and just build resentment..but what I think is useful is to use the time objectivelty
Mickorod Renard: look down from above or whatever
arabella Ella: being seeing as Pema used to say
Mickorod Renard: even see ones own intransigence
Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera QT
Lia Rikugun: hello Qt
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Qt
arabella Ella: ciao Qt come stai?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt :)
Qt Core: hi all, 'sera Agatha
Qt Core: bene, tu ara ?
arabella Ella: molto bene grazie Qt!
Lia Rikugun: i think i understand mick, thank you
Mickorod Renard: :)
Qt Core: sorry for the interruption (and being late) which is thi session topic ?
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
Lia Rikugun: i somehow see it as me as an observer
Mickorod Renard: hi cal

Storm Nordwind slips away to check that Vector's new workshop is ready to go on the hour
Calvino Rabeni: hi all :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
Mickorod Renard: bye storm
Agatha Macbeth: Be seeing you
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye storm
Lia Rikugun: hey calvino
Lia Rikugun: bye storm
Storm Nordwind: Bye. Come along to Cafh if you want!
arabella Ella: they are discussing stepping back when in a difficult situation and taking time out to see it from a more objective perspective
arabella Ella: bye Storm
arabella Ella: rather than building up more resentment for example
arabella Ella: (hope I got it right)
Strannik Zipper: we started by talking out being stuck in a determined sense of reality
Calvino Rabeni: good move
Qt Core: nice, i usually end up doing both ;-)
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: Stran brought up Plato's cave
Mickorod Renard: u know it Ara?
arabella Ella: yes
Mickorod Renard: does it relate?
arabella Ella: possibly yes
arabella Ella: for Plato there is an ideal form of everything that exists
Mickorod Renard: I may have steered us off track
Strannik Zipper: one could feel stuck in a world of insubstantial shadows
arabella Ella: but we can never know the 'ideal form' of things
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am also slipping away, curious about the cafh intro session
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
arabella Ella: we only see things from our human perspective like shadows lit by a fire in a cave
Mickorod Renard: bye Yaku
Agatha Macbeth: See you there Yaku
arabella Ella: what is the session about Agatha?
arabella Ella: oh just got notecard :)
Agatha Macbeth: Not sure myself Ara
Mickorod Renard: shall we all have a look?
arabella Ella: sounds interesting
Strannik Zipper: but Plato suggests the possibility of following the light back to its source and seeing what is being projected
Agatha Macbeth: In fact, think i'll go find out :)
Lia Rikugun: willg o too
Agatha Macbeth: By all
Strannik Zipper: where is it?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye even
Lia Rikugun: and take a look
Agatha Macbeth: Kira
Mickorod Renard: bye \Ags
arabella Ella: but ... according to Plato and later Kant ... we can never know reality as it really is ... 'in itself'
Lia Rikugun: yes kira acfe
arabella Ella: the session is at Kira Cafe
Lia Rikugun: you have a landmark strannik?
Strannik Zipper: ah
Strannik Zipper: yes
Lia Rikugun: ok great
Strannik Zipper: although I will actually have to get back to RL soon
Strannik Zipper: nice chatting!
arabella Ella: I'm off to Kira then bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: ok,,scuse me Stran,,we are all keen to test the waters
Qt Core: me too ;-)
Strannik Zipper: right
Strannik Zipper: laters!
Qt Core: bye
Calvino Rabeni: bye