2010.03.23 13:00 - Time travel, beliefs and memories

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    One of gathered group finds that this session coincides with Maxine's Dream Workshop at the Kira Cafe.

    Qt Core: hi Susi
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Qt
    Coder Criss: hi :)
    Susi Alcott: Hi Coder
    Qt Core: hi Coder, welcome back ;-)
    Coder Criss: thanks :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Coder Criss: hello :)
    Susi Alcott: hey Yaku
    Susi Alcott: Hi Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, damn dream workshop
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye already :)
    Qt Core: hi yaku, storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi there Qt
    Susi Alcott: Hi Agatha
    Coder Criss: hi agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody :)
    Qt Core: hi Agatha
    Storm Nordwind: Hi there :)

    The DST rebellion!
    Storm Nordwind: So what wondrous stories do people have to tell after my week away? :)
    Susi Alcott: well...has one quite special
    Qt Core: well... there is a little rebellion against dst by europeans ;-)
    Susi Alcott: dst is ?
    Agatha Macbeth: A pain
    Coder Criss: daylight saving?
    Qt Core: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: That too
    Qt Core: several 1pm session was longer as people come later or just as it was earlier in the evening night for us
    Qt Core: were
    Qt Core: so we stayed here more
    Storm Nordwind: I guess that's good then :)
    Storm Nordwind: You mean we actually have something to thank Bush for???!
    Qt Core: no dst in USA before him ?!
    Storm Nordwind: Yes there was. It was just in sync with most of the rest of the world then
    Storm Nordwind: Now it is not
    Qt Core: ahh, now that is the Bush i know ;-)
    Coder Criss: hi anaise :)
    Wol Euler: hello all
    Susi Alcott: _(!\_ Wol
    Coder Criss: hi wol :)
    Qt Core: hi Anaise
    Anaise Vaughan: hi all :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi there Wol
    Qt Core: hi Wol
    Qt Core: hi Calvino
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Wol :) Anaise
    Agatha Macbeth: And cal
    Coder Criss: hi cal :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Cal
    Wol Euler: hello storm, agatha, qt, coder, anaise, susi
    Susi Alcott: hi anaise and Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi all!
    Wol Euler: bleu will be along momentarily
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ to Qt
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: to susi
    Storm Nordwind: That's the American 'momentarily' rather than the English one?
    Wol Euler: presumably :)
    ("Momentarily" - in English: "for a short while"; in American: "in a short while".)

    Susi Alcott: Hi Bleu
    Wol Euler: hello cal
    Storm Nordwind waves to Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: hey! everyone
    Susi Alcott: Hi arabella
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Coder Criss: hi bleu, ara :)
    Qt Core: hi Ara, Bleu
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleu, Ara
    Storm Nordwind: Wow and ara too. Lots of avatars
    Anaise Vaughan: Hi Arabella and Blue
    arabella Ella: Hiya Storm havent seen u in ages!
    Storm Nordwind: I've been flying here and there ;)
    arabella Ella: hope you had safe landing then Storm and that your trips were successful :)
    Storm Nordwind: Yes thank you. Very much so. :)

    Remembering Susi's one of previous comments.
    Storm Nordwind: Susi... did you mention you had a story to tell?
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Susi Alcott: well...something I experienced partly with my RL friends just a day back
    Susi Alcott: kind of time traveling I'de 'guess'
    Susi Alcott: wanna hear ?
    Bleu Oleander: sure
    Storm Nordwind: Why not?
    arabella Ella listens eagerly ...
    Wol Euler: sure
    Qt Core: yes

    Susi's story unfolds.
    Susi Alcott: when I arrived to my friend, I missed such bed from his home
    Susi Alcott: wondered why it was not there anymore even he had just builded it in school; such double floored bed
    Susi Alcott: so...I asked where it is and they ; at first his son, and then he , told that it's in the cellar
    Susi Alcott: I asked then that 'oh; was there still some part missing or why it's taken to the cellar'
    Susi Alcott: then my friend understood 'something' and told that it's cuz he must lacquer it, as it has never been here yet; you have dreamed the future
    Wol Euler: O.O
    arabella Ella: wow cool
    Storm Nordwind: Oh!!
    Susi Alcott: I truly was so sure that I had seen it and described what I had seen
    Susi Alcott: he said that I described the bed exactly as it shall be
    Susi Alcott: as I saw still in my mind such dark wood bed
    Susi Alcott: but he said that "in fact is light wood, but I shall liquer it as dark"
    arabella Ella: amazing!
    Coder Criss: aye, wow
    Wol Euler: phone
    Qt Core: !
    Susi Alcott: well...in fact I was kind of dissapointed
    arabella Ella: why?
    Storm Nordwind: Why so Susi?
    arabella Ella: and has this happened to you on other occasions?
    Susi Alcott: as I worked so hard in childhood that I wouldn't remember those dreams I so often saw exactly as they came true, so that was to see the future
    Coder Criss: you dreamed at night, or also daydreams?
    Calvino Rabeni: I am curiously interested in this story that Susi has told
    Susi Alcott: well; with few friends we have made agreement that when we speak of the 'daydreaming' it means the phrase when we let us to know more of where our spirit and/or mind is traveling
    Susi Alcott: as we normally close our human mind from such
    Coder Criss: practically i mean seeing images, i ask this because i had some of that, just flashes during daytime
    Susi Alcott: so; this daydreaming we know that we do for the information we need that we can 'work' better and/or understand better what's going on and why
    Agatha Macbeth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_experiment_with_time
    Coder Criss: ah interesting
    Susi Alcott: so; as I 'sleep' not based on the clock...I cannot be sure if I've seen this exact dream on daytime or night time
    Susi Alcott: so; r You flashes seeing the future or where your traveling at the time you see them ?
    Susi Alcott: or maybe you've joined to somebody else's existence to see what's going on with him/her ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Nothing unusual to a Tralfamadorean :)
    Susi Alcott: does not know that term at all
    Agatha Macbeth: Slaughterhouse 5?
    Agatha Macbeth: So it goes...
    Susi Alcott: sorry I understand even less now
    Coder Criss: These things are very hard to place for me, since like i said before, everything i do is logic. But to answer your question, it's images in a flash, maybe wishful thinking at the time? who knows, but the strange thing is that i see the same image at times thereafter and then its a recognition which make me remember about seeing it in the first place
    Coder Criss: So, i dont know, could just be coincidence
    Susi Alcott: Hi Zon
    arabella Ella: Hiya Zoon
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon
    Coder Criss: hi zon
    Zon Quar: hi all
    arabella Ella: Zon
    Bleu Oleander: hey! Zon
    Qt Core: hi Zon
    Susi Alcott: ty Coder; now I got better connection to your those flashes
    Susi Alcott: and 'see' them to be information
    Susi Alcott: they shall guide you 'one day' more
    Agatha Macbeth: Who?
    Susi Alcott: Hi Anaise
    Anaise Vaughan: Hi Susi
    Susi Alcott: Coder's flashes
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Coder Criss: it all falls or stands if the future is set, is it? could it be possible? My logic says no
    Coder Criss: tho some experiences say otherwise
    Storm Nordwind: Why would the future have to be set?
    Susi Alcott: well...imo...all must be 'ready' in the spiritual levels before they can take place in the human world
    Coder Criss: in order to "see" parts of the future, the future must be set at the time you see it
    Storm Nordwind: No. It could simply be best guess of projection according to current circumstances
    Storm Nordwind: Thus it could change
    Coder Criss: however, you could theorize that it could be a possible future, and it not always come true
    Susi Alcott: ah yes; sometimes to 'see the future' is to know what CAN happen withouth that something changes before it's to mainfest
    Coder Criss: it could also be just our mind playing tricks with making connections, which our mind is very good in
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Susi Alcott: when one is not thinking the whole thing, and still sees such, that is no best guess then, but sure one can even dream own guesses
    Susi Alcott: there's still such special feeling in such dreams of the future, which tells when it's unavoidable
    Coder Criss: yes, who knows. one fact is there, no brain specialist can tell you that they know how it works for certain
    Coder Criss: so, we know very little
    Susi Alcott: so what in my this experience was new was, that I already truly believed it to be seeing in RL, not any dream....
    Susi Alcott: ah yes; I'm more tried to understand that why, than how...
    Coder Criss: yes, i understand
    Coder Criss: why you see that, is there some significance to it
    Coder Criss: retorical question
    Susi Alcott: well; at first....tens of years back, I came to conclusion that when I see something special , it's my place to share the information
    Susi Alcott: but I learned other reasons also by time
    Coder Criss: maybe to help someone?
    Susi Alcott: exactly
    Susi Alcott: and yes; often as the worning
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps just to encourage people to think, to review again with an open mind?
    Susi Alcott: but as well in order that the person got possibility to prepare what's to come
    Coder Criss: i can imagine; the most insignificant or trivial thing (you think) could have big consequences
    Susi Alcott: ah well...to me....dont much know trivial things...
    Susi Alcott: wanna thank you Storm
    Susi Alcott: even I dont see the reason clearly...I felt huge need to share my this experience, but was a bit afraid to do that
    Susi Alcott: but you helped me
    Calvino Rabeni: TY susi
    Storm Nordwind: I'm glad you felt able to do so in this friendly environment :)
    Coder Criss: yes, thank you, remarkable story :)
    Susi Alcott: thank you for you words Coder
    Susi Alcott: I again must go so I wish good time to you all
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Susi :)
    arabella Ella: thanks for sharing Susi, bye!
    Coder Criss: goodbye susi :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Bleu Oleander: C U! Susi
    Qt Core: bye Susi, ty

    Belief vs. faith.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is ironic, perhaps, but an intellectually honest philosophy seems to be to reject belief but accept faith
    Storm Nordwind: Would you like to elaborate on the differences Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I can, but .. faith seems unavoidable while belief seems optional
    Calvino Rabeni: so a minimalist approach to ontology would be t drop the belief
    Calvino Rabeni: and be unable to drop the faith
    arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Calvino? faith in what and belief in what?
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps a couple of examples?
    Coder Criss: i was thinking the same, what is the definition of faith in this context?
    Calvino Rabeni: Tell me - what is faith itself, not the word "faith"
    Agatha Macbeth: Believing what can't be proved
    Coder Criss: being in a situation that you did not anticipated and have no control over?
    Calvino Rabeni: Fair enough Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: For various meanings of "prove", of course
    Calvino Rabeni: For a mystic, to prove might be to experience
    arabella Ella: faith could also be belief in a religion or trust in other people
    Agatha Macbeth: I was only aware of one, sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: not for the logician
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, whatever is, to a specific person, a way to incontrovertibly support a specific idea, would be "prove"
    Agatha Macbeth: Who are you waving to Storm?
    Calvino Rabeni: And that implies - and idea that open to question - open to doubt
    Calvino Rabeni: So prove deals with a smaller domain of questions than faith
    Calvino Rabeni: The "realist" can't prove that all is matter/energy, but is forced to accept it on faith
    Agatha Macbeth: Faith is believing something in the absence of any hard evidence IMO
    Calvino Rabeni: But when your evidence is interpretational, there is no "hard" about it
    Agatha Macbeth: We need Gilles here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, the definition of 'hard evidence' has imported ideas that rest on faith
    arabella Ella: could we use 'justification' or 'rational argument' instead of 'hard evidence' Calvino?
    arabella Ella: as then you could 'prove' stuff in small pieces although the axioms (basic premises) are always not justified
    arabella Ella: (assumptions)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but observe the different types of argument that qualify as justification, to people who have faith in various metaphysics
    Bleu Oleander: but is there faith testable?
    Calvino Rabeni: Apparently it is testable within their system
    Coder Criss: I think it's just a bit of wordplay, where faith has different meanings in different context, it can be a state of being, or something that happens to you
    Calvino Rabeni: and no one has figured out a meta-system
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino the arguments are generally logical but the axioms on which the arguments are built are often rather frail
    Bleu Oleander: but not testable outside of their system?
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm off to Kira. Bye all.
    arabella Ella: bye Agatha
    Coder Criss: bye agatha :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye

    Can we drop beliefs? All of them?
    arabella Ella: what about belief Calvino? Surely we cannot as humans drop all our beliefs?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds somewhat dubious that would be possible I agree
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps in Play as Being one can, drop both beliefs and disbeliefs? :)
    arabella Ella: As IMHO I think we start to form beliefs from the very moment of birth
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of belief is slippery since it refers to the questions that are doubtable (and might be dropped) and also the tacit assumptions that can't be questioned
    arabella Ella: One can choose to drop some beliefs but definitely not all beliefs surely Storm?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is from the inside view, that is
    Storm Nordwind: Why not ara?
    Calvino Rabeni: And from the outside view, from the view of another, the "belief" would be different
    arabella Ella: because you have to at least believe that there is something (a belief) that you can drop ... and belief in dropping is in itself a belief
    Qt Core: isn't the idea of being good or bad being without belief a belief ?
    Calvino Rabeni: In the context of what is droppable, the beliefs and disbeliefs are probably the same kind of thing
    arabella Ella nods to Qt
    Storm Nordwind: The fire burns through its own fuel eventually (is the most common metaphor for that Ara)
    arabella Ella smiles at the lovely metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: There is an ironic thing about it in practice - that to actually "drop" an implicit belief, you have to "believe" it first
    Qt Core: as i burned myself at work with programming recursion today i'm quite scared by it now ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Recursion is logic playful enough to chase itself in circles for a while
    Qt Core: nbelive you can belive a belief... ;-)

    Dropping memories? Can we? Should we? What if? Perhaps this could be the subject of a long discussion all in itself.
    arabella Ella: may i ask ... what about our memories ... do we drop those too?
    Storm Nordwind: It's quite easy to do so. It's more of an effort for me not to!
    Calvino Rabeni: Can drop the fixated ways of regarding the factual nature of memory
    Qt Core: i hope not, atmost the sentimental and emotive part can be dropped
    Calvino Rabeni: And of course don't forget it is a reversible process
    Calvino Rabeni: you don't have to say bye bye to your childhood
    Qt Core: but even then the fact that an emotive/sentimental part should not be dropped
    Qt Core: a "there was" was lonst in the keyboard
    Storm Nordwind: If you forget, and no one else remembers, did it ever exist?
    Qt Core: it may ;-)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    arabella Ella: nice one Storm :)
    Qt Core: we can't drop too many memories, we need them to plan for the future
    Anaise Vaughan: how would you exactly drop a memory?
    Calvino Rabeni: How about, just getting them back in whatever moment they are needed?
    Qt Core: that is when we don't just dream it ;-)
    arabella Ella: aren't our memories, our beliefs, our thoughts, our experience ... dont these comprise our individual identity?
    Coder Criss: surely we have no control about what memories we keep/drop
    Calvino Rabeni: No, this "drop" is not like erasing the hard drive :)
    arabella Ella: i admit we can drop some memories, it is sometimes therapeutic to do so at least with harmful memories ...
    Qt Core: yes ara but that isn't immutable, we lose things, we gain things
    Anaise Vaughan: how?
    Anaise Vaughan: how do you drop memories?
    Calvino Rabeni: And the painful experiences can be good "fertilizer" for the future self
    arabella Ella: motivation, determination, theraphy, practice i guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Once it ferments into compost
    Bleu Oleander: surgery
    Coder Criss: you can *try* to put them back into subconsious mind, and lie to yourself, but it is impossible
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of "dropping" is not to have a lobotomy
    Bleu Oleander: (only teasing)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It just implies a more flexible intelligence with respect to how the ideas/memories can be held in any moment
    Qt Core: don't really believe (;-)) one could really "choose" to forget, one may reach a point where a memory won't hurt anymore but not really forgetting it
    Calvino Rabeni: Dropping is the name for the first step where one "loosens" the grip on them
    Anaise Vaughan: exactly QT
    Calvino Rabeni: in order to hold them lightly
    arabella Ella: i think one can drop or forget some memories like feeling guilty when young (when there is no cause to feel guilty but we are conditioned to do so)
    Anaise Vaughan: you can't drop memories
    Bleu Oleander: bfn :)
    Qt Core: bye Bleu
    arabella Ella: or memories which may cause harm to self
    arabella Ella: like low self esteem
    Coder Criss: i do not understand "flexible intelligence" in that context calvino, can you explain?
    Qt Core: buried somewhere, but not really forgotten
    Coder Criss: does that not imply that you accept more then one truth?
    arabella Ella: brain cells may die too Qt with time
    arabella Ella: (and age)
    Anaise Vaughan: what does brain cells dieing have to do with dropping memories?
    Qt Core: buit that is not a choice, not even which cells die
    arabella Ella: has to do with forgetting
    arabella Ella: yes no choice there
    arabella Ella: just an example of how we can forget memories
    Calvino Rabeni: Flexible intelligence means you have more freedom of options, about what cognitive behavior happens in you with respect to a memory or perception
    Anaise Vaughan: you said drop, not forget
    Qt Core: that is an accident, i want a multi petabyte hard disk wired to may brain as soon as possible ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: One might remember dropping the vase, as a child, but not be "compelled" by to engage in "guilt"
    arabella Ella: me too Qt!!!
    arabella Ella cant wait for brain chip implants!
    Coder Criss: hmmm
    Coder Criss: sorry calvino, i can not live with that term, lol
    Coder Criss: but it's ok :)

    The "shape of you".
    Storm Nordwind: I would suggest that all that you are reflects all you have learnt and experienced. Beyond that, memories can help with details, but the "shape of you" would seem to be more important
    arabella Ella: fraid i must go now ... nite all!
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night ara
    arabella Ella: thanks for interesting chat!
    Qt Core: 'night ara
    Coder Criss: nn ara :)
    Anaise Vaughan: sweet dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked Storm's point
    Calvino Rabeni: The "shape of you" seems pretty resilient to change in the details of memory, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: But I do think there is an effect
    Qt Core: and that is one of the reason i like chat (considering sl a chat too) as the "shape of me" as a sum of thought is more evident than the shape of me as a body

    The benefits of ctrl-q.
    Anaise Vaughan: was nice chatting with you, have a good night all
    Coder Criss: thanks for the chat peopls *bows*
    Storm Nordwind: Goodnight all
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Coder Criss: good night :)
    Qt Core: ty, Coder and Anaise, bye
    Calvino Rabeni: And don't foget "control-q" :)
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Calvino Rabeni: They both had in the profile - for more information about RL, press ctrl-q
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Qt Core: nice, wondered what that combo did (checked)
    Qt Core: i wonder how much people not knowing what it does and doing it get angry ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the SL version of instant enlightenment
    Qt Core: yeah, really a big dropping
    Storm Nordwind: It's the instant "oh my wife/husband/boyfriend/girlfriend is coming" switch
    Qt Core: i prefer a win+l for that
    Calvino Rabeni: Could be useful for a friend of mine, whose wife thingks SL is "a porno" ?)
    Qt Core: well...
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni nudges Wol
    Storm Nordwind: And so it is. Just like RL
    Storm Nordwind splashes water on Wol
    Calvino Rabeni: But seriously, Storm :)
    Qt Core: i have to go, bye all and ty
    Storm Nordwind: Goodnight Qt
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye QT, take care

    A brief discussion about the next retreat. And Wol, who has been slumped over for most of the session, returns.
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you planning to attend the SF meet, Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: I am attending an empowerment at Crestone that overlaps with it.
    Wol Euler: back
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that means No, rather than Partly
    Storm Nordwind: Since the overlap is at the start of the SF event, I will not really be allowed ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, too bad
    Storm Nordwind: We have our own rule: You can leave early but not arrive late
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: I've heard that one. I may be able to attend "on the cheap"
    Storm Nordwind: However, I've threatened to invade as a mysterious man-in-black when the group meets in public spaces. Beware the neighboring tables!
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that would be an honorable traditional role to perform
    Calvino Rabeni: The dark matter of the meeting
    Wol Euler: with your hat pulled low over your eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll be dressed as a hot-dog vendor
    Storm Nordwind: A wide-brimmed hat perhaps... though that would be too close to my pre-Buddhist history
    Calvino Rabeni: with a cart, etc, handing out cards to the public
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, and an eyepatch
    Wol Euler: (storm)
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: I always thought the front cover of TSK was an uncanny resemblance ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The cards would say - free popcorn if you do (certain things) over there by those unlikely tourists
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an uncanny resemblance to something, certainly :)
    Wol Euler: the edition I saw had an abstract rainbowy thing, I thought
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I meant the hardback edition in red
    Wol Euler: ah
    Storm Nordwind: http://is.gd/aUPaH
    Wol Euler: ty
    Wol Euler: an odd image.
    Wol Euler: hello bolo
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, a strange choice for such a book in my opinion. Old One Eye has been staring out at me from it ever since i got it
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, I can see that.
    Wol and I are referring to a god of the Heathen pantheon. Now it's time to go.

    Storm Nordwind: Hi Bolo
    Wol Euler: [13:51] Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I can, but .. faith seems unavoidable while belief seems optional
    Wol Euler: interesting ...
    Wol Euler: looks like I missed a good session while sitting here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ...things happened ...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I must move on, I have some errands to run before I can go to bed.
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well :)
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, wol
    Storm Nordwind: You're always welcome to snooze anytime :)
    Storm Nordwind: I think it's time for me to bow out too
    Calvino Rabeni: See you another time Storm :)
    Bolonath Crystal: nite storm
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm off, too
    Bolonath Crystal: good nite, cal
    Calvino Rabeni: And I also !
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bolo
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