2010.03.02 19:00 - Juicy Mirror

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: There's nobody here
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Eos Amaterasu: You've lost your "beyond the beliefs..."
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Paradise is having t-shirts made up with that writing
Calvino Rabeni: .... hmm, 2 minutes to ghe bell...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's a t-shirt tag - might make a good car bumper sticker also
Eos Amaterasu: beyond belief!
Calvino Rabeni: beyond the beliefs ... a place where we can meet :)
Eos Amaterasu: no man's land
Calvino Rabeni: And chat too :)(
Calvino Rabeni: A pure land for everyman
Eos Amaterasu straps on seatbelt
Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs coming up....
Calvino Rabeni: (: :)

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: (some lag!)
Calvino Rabeni: (: :)
Eos Amaterasu: sl has semi-eventual consistency
Eos Amaterasu: so does reality :-)
Eos Amaterasu: maybe
Eos Amaterasu: btw, I think there are always beliefs
Eos Amaterasu: it's not a matter of having beliefs or not
Eos Amaterasu: but perhaps more about holding them transparently
Calvino Rabeni: sure, I think the saying means "beyond *certain* beliefs" ?
Eos Amaterasu: well, what I'm suggesting (just seeing this)
Eos Amaterasu: looking at the picture at http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats/2010-01_Malta/2010-Malta-Accounts
Calvino Rabeni: And semi-transparent is ideal - otherwise opaque or invisible, either one a bit of a limitation
Eos Amaterasu: is that beyond the beliefs doesn't mean there is a place beyond beliefs
Eos Amaterasu: but rather there is a place beyond any belief
Eos Amaterasu: so even holding a belief you can go for "the truth of the human spirit"
Eos Amaterasu: autopoeisis creates new imagery, story, belief
Calvino Rabeni: Just want the "true" beliefs, and maybe a subset of those
Eos Amaterasu: You mean like "universal declaration of human rights"?
Calvino Rabeni: Responding to your autopoeisis, which is the main thing we do and call knowing
Calvino Rabeni: Rights are a legal story we might like to tell one another
Calvino Rabeni: The quoted poem, a different kind of story - more inspiring
Eos Amaterasu: it describes the space beyond the well-travelled, well rehearsed, the tacit
Eos Amaterasu: which might be experienced as breakdowns in the expected or familiar
Calvino Rabeni: Somewhere, that knowing is striving to break out of the corral and head for the hills
Calvino Rabeni: Were it a ruminant that is :)
Eos Amaterasu: ta ta dum, ta ta dum, ta ta dum dum dum
Calvino Rabeni: Tired of chewing the same hay every day
Eos Amaterasu: the belief things have a way of running into walls, or getting odd juxtapositions
Eos Amaterasu: they don't quite work, and so you're popped out of them
Eos Amaterasu: where, as you say, you might meet someone else
Calvino Rabeni: And if you ask for co-authors, some write of the going beyond as a breakdown, others as a breakout, a breakaway, a liberation
Eos Amaterasu: Yes...
Eos Amaterasu: the negative language being a bit safer, in that less likely to imply or impute new beliefs
Calvino Rabeni: And one *must* tell the story when called - the only question is how :)

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Where did that idea of "safe" come from? As if the new ideas or beliefs are dangerous?
Eos Amaterasu: safe in the sense of safer from potential concretization of the "liberation" or "breakout"
Eos Amaterasu: negative-speak is safer than positive-speak
Calvino Rabeni: Really :)
Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, that's why most mystics negative-speak
Calvino Rabeni: I've wondered about that - I think that's not the reason
Eos Amaterasu: well, it's a side-effect of a more fundamental reason
Eos Amaterasu: "No one can describe That by saying 'it is this'"
Calvino Rabeni: Go on ?
Eos Amaterasu: (hi Eliza)
Eliza Madrigal: (Hi )
Eos Amaterasu: Commentary: No one can describe That by saying "it is this or that"
Calvino Rabeni: They have a choice, they could go either way.
Eos Amaterasu: So you have to use negative-speak
Eos Amaterasu: nor is it any particular "that"
Eos Amaterasu: It is not any particular "this"
Eos Amaterasu: (amazing lag :-)
Eos Amaterasu: this came before that
Eos Amaterasu: but appeared later
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Given the divine in every drop, a "yes-and" language pattern would seem pretty serviceable too
Calvino Rabeni: More likely it's an early step of training
Calvino Rabeni: as in "don't be confused"
Calvino Rabeni: But that doesn't congnize very well, unfortunately
Eos Amaterasu: Eliza, believe it or not but we are talking about "beyond the beliefs"
Calvino Rabeni: It could be an expression of culture or personal character also
Calvino Rabeni: A preference for negatives

Eliza Madrigal smiles and is happily confused

Eos Amaterasu: yes, mustn't leap too quickly into our own conclusions
Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe just a habit left over from suffering - as in the case where the mind is liberated by the feelings never learned to dance
Eos Amaterasu: it's the best way to be confused :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Since the body got stuck in the lotus position or something
Eos Amaterasu: and then, just drop the confusion :-)
Calvino Rabeni: And there's not much going on up there on the mountain
Calvino Rabeni: and you don't want to "disturb" the other monks
Eos Amaterasu: you could get into a fight with them
Eos Amaterasu: "since there is no mirror bright, where can the dust alight?"
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Rumi seems to portray a state of drunkenness and song as symbolic of an enlghtened perspective
Eos Amaterasu: hmmm
Calvino Rabeni: The mirror analogy suggests an austere eradication of personality
Eos Amaterasu: like that final scene in Godfather I where he's dying, and just running around in the garden
Eliza Madrigal feels quite drunk when she reads Rumi :)
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, the empty mirror bit gets carried away with itself
Calvino Rabeni: A love affair with the Friend

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: but the mirror can be more
Eos Amaterasu: "Look into the mirror of your mind, Naropa, the mysterious home of the dakinis" - Tilopa
Eos Amaterasu: Much juicier
Calvino Rabeni: the mirror doesn't have much to contribute to life - it is a pure consumer - put two mirrors together, not much happens
Eos Amaterasu: in some traditions, the mirror is the source of all
Eos Amaterasu: the mirror doesn't reflect anything _else_
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Else than what?
Eos Amaterasu: all existence is reflected in itself
Eos Amaterasu: that's it
Calvino Rabeni: except itself - it doesn't allow itself a place in existence then
Eos Amaterasu: at some point it needs negative-speak :-)
Eos Amaterasu: or, there's nothing else than Being
Eos Amaterasu: so no external mirror

Eliza Madrigal: awareness itself appearing as anything at all...

Calvino Rabeni: negative comes in handy when you need to change direction
Eos Amaterasu: Eliza!
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal wonders if she's near the discussion yet... :)
Eos Amaterasu just witnessed Eliza hitting the bull's eye blindfolded
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Eliza, your're not not on the mark
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal is just listening
Eos Amaterasu: that may be the mirror itself
Calvino Rabeni: So is "awareness" like the bland mix of the reality ice cream, to which all qualities and flavors get added?
Calvino Rabeni: This doesn't seem right, even as a metaphor
Eos Amaterasu: hmm, yeah, not separate from flavor
Calvino Rabeni: indeed
Eos Amaterasu: actuality not separate from flavor, as experienced
Calvino Rabeni: Whenever "That" appears, it does in some particular way. Being going on a joy ride, revving the engine wildly
Eos Amaterasu: but not any flavor
Eliza Madrigal: I should be off to bed. Glad to say hello :) And goodnight :)
Eos Amaterasu: 'night Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. Thank you
Calvino Rabeni: Sweet dreams, and blessed nothingness
Eos Amaterasu: The "cosmic mirror" is an image used in the Shambhala tradition of C Trungpa
Eos Amaterasu: Interesting thing is notion of "drala", which is the opening to the cosmic mirror through particular phenomenality
Eos Amaterasu: like a tie
Eos Amaterasu: or a clearing in the woods
Eos Amaterasu: or a turn of phrase, or sound

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: we lost contact with the freshness and curiosity of experience. - Chögyam Trungpa
Eos Amaterasu: http://crazywisdomthemovie.com/
Eos Amaterasu: Indeed.
Eos Amaterasu: That's why we are here :-)
Calvino Rabeni: "These experiences are completely new"
Calvino Rabeni: Drala appears to be an ecstatic teaching
Eos Amaterasu: ecstatic qua "suddenly free from fixed mind"
Eos Amaterasu: also super-ordinary :-)
Eos Amaterasu: Idea of "urban retreat" is interesting in that sense
Calvino Rabeni: Ecstatic as - suddenly animated by a numinous appearance
Eos Amaterasu: yes, presence greater than your ordinary understanding of yourself
Calvino Rabeni: A mirror is too flat and impassive to make a good metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: Nothing works (forever)
Calvino Rabeni: We're talking - something sensitive and responsive
Eos Amaterasu: universe has a responsive quality
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe back when this metaphor was made up, mirrors were a fascinating and uncommon device
Calvino Rabeni: And carried some of that into the description of experience
Calvino Rabeni: Responsive yes
Eos Amaterasu: mirror as self-generating CGI
Calvino Rabeni: funny
Eos Amaterasu: a lot of these words and images only go so far
Eos Amaterasu: emtpiness is a huge example
Eos Amaterasu: It misses that part that was expressed in "2001": "there's stars in there!"
Calvino Rabeni: True, really it means "more can appear hear than you have already imagined"
Eos Amaterasu: Yeah. Mingyur Rinpoche did a great gloss: "shunya-ta: shunya = empty; ta = anything can happen"
Calvino Rabeni: But, the metaphor of the "blank slate" is the worse for wear, these days
Calvino Rabeni: Exactly
Eos Amaterasu: the 9 secs, 90 secs, can have that quality
Eos Amaterasu: it's approached more "positively", in spite of "dropping" language
Eos Amaterasu: both + and - speak
Eos Amaterasu: Time to go to bed!
Calvino Rabeni: After "dropping" then "anything"
Calvino Rabeni: OK, great talking to you Eos
Eos Amaterasu: ?Whups
Eos Amaterasu: (trying the beta browser...)
Calvino Rabeni: Leap off to dreamland
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks and good night, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: I'm using it- really like it too
Calvino Rabeni: sleep well

 

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: http://westernmountain.org/drala.html