2010.08.04 01:00 - Happyness, Heidegger and the use of suffering

The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Crystal ;)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste cosmicflower :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how are You doing?
Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh
Bolonath Crystal: thx, fine :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too, been extremely happy lately
Bolonath Crystal: wow, sounds nice :))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, yes it is ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: little things makes me smiling wide these days
Bolonath Crystal: happyness is said to be part of our 'real being'
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, I think so too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to enjoy life it-Self
Bolonath Crystal: swami vivekananda once said, that happyness is a sign of spiritual progress :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahhhh ***
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its very light energy form
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, and I think its also matter of choose
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how to think of things
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how to take them
Bolonath Crystal nods
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Bert ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, by the way, flu went away ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: last time we saw, talked about the coach
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - what a nice setting ! :-))
Bolonath Crystal: namaste bert :)
Bolonath Crystal: i can only see you on radar...
Bertram Jacobus: namaste bolo and cosma ! :-)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I see Bert as a white light ball ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: next to me
Bertram Jacobus: yes - i´m still that little cloud - but does no matter right ? :-)
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: cloud of happyness *g*
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, sure, no matter ;))

Astral travellers

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do also "travel" sometimes in a form of ball ;)
Bertram Jacobus: how do you do that cosma ? (or do is disturb a running talk - then , plz , don´t let interrupt you)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just notived we are here with German and Finnish ;9
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do travelling?
Bertram Jacobus: yess , twice :-)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, with aware thought
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and "seeing" what is there
Bolonath Crystal: we talked before about happyness as part of our real self, bert
Bertram Jacobus: can you give me an example for that or us cosma perhaps please ? have no experiences with such ...
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in a way I do travel now too ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all of us
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: are "travelling" with spirit now
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Bolonath Crystal: always :)
Bertram Jacobus: but what can you "see" then, for example ?
Bertram Jacobus: but ... sometimes ... we even can be without thoughts, no ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well,
Bolonath Crystal nods
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: see or feel
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sure, can be without thoughts
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is a state, or dimension
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: where is no words
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: being
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and seing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or feeling
Bolonath Crystal: there is a state behind seeing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or should I say Knowing
Bolonath Crystal: "awareness" maybe
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sensing, and getting impressions around
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Bolonath Crystal: as soon as the mind reaches perfect calmness things "stop to happen" somehow. difficult to describe
Bolonath Crystal: i don't reach this very often :(
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I found out once when I stopped to think or went to state where was no thoughts or words, i started to move, see star aproaching
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and it took me a little time to realice I was the one who moved
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more near to one star on space
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and not star coming more near on me
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I was my eyes closed
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but not sleeping
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then I got exited
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thought WOOW now its happening something
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and at the same time I did that
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I came back to my bed
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: should not analyce it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but just go and see what happens
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: today in my morning session i had often in my mind the words - follow the thoughts ... not :-)
Bertram Jacobus: morning session = morning meditation
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Bolonath Crystal: hm, these travellings might be distractions on the spiritual path. i'm a little careful with "siddhis"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what is siddhis?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Cal <3<3<3
Bolonath Crystal: siddhis are "yogic powers"
Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm, I think spiritual travelling is part of spiritual path
Bertram Jacobus: hey cal ! what an exquisite round this morning (for europe) here ! ... :-)
--BELL--
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what if those are part of someones nature?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: natural nature
Calvino Rabeni: <333 Cosmic, Bert and Bolo :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think, in a way they can not be "wrong" then ;)
Bolonath Crystal: i only spoke for myself, cosmicflower. maybe you are real self's travelling incarnation :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Cal, we are talking about spirit travelling (astral) and happiness ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: :) thanks
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby so
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but for sure, there is no need fear about it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Bolonath Crystal: right. i spoke of distraction rather than danger
Bolonath Crystal: i would be very tempted to get lost in a myriad of exciting worlds
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what is myriad?
Bolonath Crystal: a big number
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "getting lost"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes it might be good
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how many people there are afraid to deth to be "lost"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like being messed up
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: pack of card messed up
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its so much more secure , feel secure not to be "lost"
Bolonath Crystal: getting lost is a very tempting experience, too :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but from "lost" there might also find something
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: new
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes and
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in a way
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it demands a bit courage to be lost
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for a while in lifetime
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: messed up
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then there is no much controlling
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or analysing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Bolonath Crystal agrees
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby only seeing what happens next
Bolonath Crystal: i had those times ...
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have also been pack messed up
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nothing serious
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but still
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can say so

"... and lead us into temptation"

Calvino Rabeni: Temptation is a fact of human existence and can't be banished through rules and restrictions, however well intended and well defined
Bolonath Crystal: i wouldn't want to banish it
Bolonath Crystal: temptation is always a good indicator for attachment
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: be right back
Bolonath Crystal: pain also, but i'd prefer temptation *g*
Calvino Rabeni: What I meant is, the kind of spiritual guidelines like - beware, sidhis are distracting or , beware, dancing is a tempation away from god's way
Bertram Jacobus: also fascination (!)
Bolonath Crystal nods to both
Bertram Jacobus: may siddhis be more distracting then dancing ?
Calvino Rabeni: I agree Bolo, the temptation is a measure or indicator and maybe an inescapable training lesson
Bolonath Crystal: right
Calvino Rabeni: @bet, its relative to Who
Calvino Rabeni: Bert I meant
Bolonath Crystal: bert, siddhis give you power over samsara. with these powers samsara becomes more tempting and the effords of reaching nirvana will get less. that's the dangerous thing with siddis. you easily get entangled with them
Bertram Jacobus: okay - i thought : depends. so can agree with you both. can distract but must not
Calvino Rabeni: A lot depends on your goal, Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: they can be as helpful as they can be distractive
Calvino Rabeni: it is dangerous only if it subverts your goal
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: namaste
Bertram Jacobus: lol - adancing yaku (!) - never saw that - hi ! :-))
Bolonath Crystal: yes, exactly, cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, a friend brought me to an dancing place
--BELL--
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t wanted to just stand around and destroy their impression
Calvino Rabeni: And so often the goal isn't specified
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not a fan of roackabillie
Yakuzza Lethecus: also i don´t dislike it
Calvino Rabeni: Yaku is immune to the tempation of rockabilly
Bertram Jacobus giggles
Bolonath Crystal: great. no karma :)
Bolonath Crystal: sorry, 2 min afk
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Yaku ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: namaste cosmic
Bertram Jacobus: here too : brb
Bolonath Crystal: back
Bolonath Crystal: namaste liza :)
Liza Deischer: hi everyone :)

Being, Time and hanging around in the Schwarzwald

Calvino Rabeni: Yaku, what is the source of the Heidegger quote "The Nothing itself nothings" ?
Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Liza :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi liza :-9
Liza Deischer: Bert, to me, you are a sweet little cloud :)
Bertram Jacobus: aarghs ! ;o) - the ugly nine again ! ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: hehe
Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty liza - seems to be to all, including me ... :-)
Liza Deischer: oops
Bolonath Crystal: today bert shows us his real nature ;))
Calvino Rabeni: Bert is a sweet something - not a cloud
Liza Deischer: hehe :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Liza
Bertram Jacobus: it simply happens ... :-))
Liza Deischer: hi Cosmic
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Just gave some food for little sweet one in here ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hellos from Simo also to all ;)
Bertram Jacobus: happend while trying to help others in clicking the sl interview which occured while logging in "how to help best ?" ... ;-)
Bolonath Crystal hellos back
Bolonath Crystal: Hey!
Bertram Jacobus waves to simo ...
Liza Deischer: well, nowthey have a problem to solve
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry, i wasn´t really here as expected i got a coffee and cerials now
Yakuzza Lethecus: its being and time
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i NEVER read the book
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i also only knew the quote
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe - I tried it in college - it added up to "huh?"
Bolonath Crystal: *g*
Calvino Rabeni: Since then I have not *dared* to return :)
Calvino Rabeni: Sadly, because my friend was a huge fan
Calvino Rabeni: an thought the secrets of seeing reality might be found there
Bertram Jacobus: different people, different interests ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still stuck with the abstract´s of the books
Bertram Jacobus: must not be a problem (?)
Calvino Rabeni: But it was a pretty big *maybe*
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what book are you talking about?
Yakuzza Lethecus: even when derrida or other philosophers are mentioned
Yakuzza Lethecus: Being in Time
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, okey
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s an old heidegger book out of the twenties
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: go to google to see it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: goes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ment to say
Bertram Jacobus: i, for example, prefer buddha ... ;-)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I went to the library today - found the book "You Don't Have To Be Buddhist To Know Nothing"
Bolonath Crystal: does someone know the german title?
Yakuzza Lethecus: Sein und Zeit
Bolonath Crystal: thx :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: So we even have the original text :P
Calvino Rabeni: ... and that quote was in it.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, there is a translation into finnish
Bertram Jacobus: i bought recently the book "what makes you not a buddhist" - very nice (!) ... :-)
Calvino Rabeni: It made a very big deal out of Nothing.
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: gigles to Cal ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not sure if i would suggest anyone to read that without aspirin
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: Or scotch whiskey
Calvino Rabeni: I good dose of common sense
Liza Deischer: oh no, then you need to read it twice, seeing everything double
Calvino Rabeni: I thought you'd get twice as much out of it on one reading ....
Liza Deischer: that certainly is a way to look at it
Calvino Rabeni: But. To really understand it - it might help to find out exactly what Heidegger was doing (or smoking) when he wrote it - and then recreate those conditions
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I will go to buy from nearby shop some materials to pitza. letting my-self be here with You guys, be right back ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: At least Heidegger loved to hang out with the villagers in the Schwarzwald.
Yakuzza Lethecus: So, he prefered a more purisic life when i remember correctly
Bolonath Crystal: oh
Yakuzza Lethecus: His cabin is also an often mention anecdote
Bolonath Crystal: i can see the schwarzwald from here
Bolonath Crystal: good opportunity the recreate conditions :)
Calvino Rabeni: Was there a historical Hansel and Gretel? And where was that infamous cabin located?
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bolonath Crystal: as far as i know they are not historical, but i didn't go very far inta that matter yet
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder if heidegger essay´s like building,dwelling,thinking even hit the contemplative subject of play as being
Bolonath Crystal: those cabins you can find in every village in the meantime
Bolonath Crystal: they are called "aldi"
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, also I was curious about the tradition of the witch house in biergarten places
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not familiar with the website but i googled a link to that essay i mentionen:
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://evans-experientialism.freeweb...eidegger7a.htm
Liza Deischer: it looks interesting Being and Time
Liza Deischer: but probably very conceptual
Liza Deischer: Bert, I meant to ask you before, but what is so ugly about the 9
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: bert can you press ctrl alt r
Liza Deischer: I think he is not with us :)
Liza Deischer: is that rebaking your textures?
Bertram Jacobus: that she very often occures when a ) should be there and so comes a :-9 instead of a :-) , for example ( or a ;-9 instead of ;-) ... and so on) ... ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that rebakes them in emerald
Yakuzza Lethecus: he´s a cloud to me
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice outfit
Liza Deischer: ah, hi Bert
Yakuzza Lethecus: i love ur clock
Bertram Jacobus: ctrl+alt+r doesn´t change anything, sry plz
Yakuzza Lethecus: ur not a cloud to me anymore
Liza Deischer: ah okay
Bertram Jacobus: hy liza ? i said hi as you came in (?) ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: it doesn´t change anything for you :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i see you now!
Bolonath Crystal: me 2
Liza Deischer: I know, just saying hi to the visible Bert
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - lucky you ? ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: the cloud was better *g*
Bertram Jacobus: i see now liza, okay ... sry ... ty ... :o)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ur shoe´s don´t fit to ur outfit
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bolonath Crystal: i have to go back to work
Bolonath Crystal: thx for the conversation :) om shanti
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Liza Deischer: bye Bolo :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bolo
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, Bolo is going, okey, just in time to say Bye
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders about Cosmic's pizza ...
Bertram Jacobus: for the log : bye bolonath ! ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: pizza ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, today is a pizza day ;)
Liza Deischer: hmmmmm
Calvino Rabeni: In finland, I think people can just use the sauna to cook the pizza
Calvino Rabeni: No oven needed
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was wondering if take kids to pizeria, but decided to prepare it at home ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh loool Cal
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - thanks for the talk ! :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: are you making everything urself then ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not all
Calvino Rabeni: Looking sharp, Bert :)
Liza Deischer: I'm afraid that makes the pizza, eh, not crusty enough :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or actually both of us are making food
Calvino Rabeni: take care, be well :)
Liza Deischer: byeBert :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye Bert
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3
Bertram Jacobus: ty all again :-)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: veru much doing by our-self
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: food
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you buy the dough or you make the dough on ur own ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, making by my-self the dough
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for pitza and as well on pies
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: self made is more tasty
Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, cosic you just reached the final step of meditation
Yakuzza Lethecus: why did you stand up :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, I noticed, yes ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, feeling now to be grounded ;)))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Liza Deischer: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i am logging out for a while
Yakuzza Lethecus: bfn
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nice to see You Yaku
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have fun
Liza Deischer: bye Yaku :)
Liza Deischer: we're closing in on you Cal :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) Cal have good to be
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in the middle ;) gigles ;)))
Calvino Rabeni: Can't we move these pillows a little closer together ? :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sounds good
Calvino Rabeni: *g*
Liza Deischer: no I'm afraid not
Calvino Rabeni: It would take a bribe to Storm
Liza Deischer: we are not the owner
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bribe?
Liza Deischer: ah, wait a minute
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, to give money to get a favor = "bribe"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, okey
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: corruption might have some "bribe" ;)
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: is this close enough :))
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni
Calvino Rabeni: 's pixels heat up a little
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;))
Calvino Rabeni: Feels different
Calvino Rabeni: cozy :)
Liza Deischer: there are more animations in it Cosmic
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this is good
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Liza Deischer: okay
Liza Deischer: well Cal, two blonds
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Are You Liza blond in rl too?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm a blonde too
Calvino Rabeni: (not really, but in SL you can be anything)
Liza Deischer: no went from white, to blonde to brown
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) I am more brunette in rl
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: changing colour here is refreshing
Liza Deischer: ah, the other day I had pruple hair
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: rl hair gets damaged easily if taking colours or curlies there
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Liza Deischer: yes :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Do You Liza have blue or brown eyes?
Liza Deischer: grey-blue, with some green
Liza Deischer: but then you have to look really close
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Liza Deischer: further away they seem to be brown
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have dark green
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mixed with brown
Liza Deischer: ah beautifu
Liza Deischer: l
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mom have light green
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and dad have chocolate brown
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Liza Deischer: I like green in eyes
Calvino Rabeni: Now wouldn't that be interesting - to see a closeup of the eye, of people who have avatars here ...
Liza Deischer: so you got a mix :)
Calvino Rabeni: You could see the green in my irises
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Liza Deischer: all green
Calvino Rabeni: Just a little, for accents
Liza Deischer: Fox has a picture on google e-mail where she shows her eye
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Eyes are amazing
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Liza Deischer: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but perhaps first I do look at persons hands
Calvino Rabeni: Especially "live"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when seeing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then eyes
Liza Deischer: hands are important to me too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and in men I take arms to be very fashinating
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if having t-shirt
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Liza Deischer: :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not needed to be muscular
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but hmm, shape of arms
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more like with art
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hands and arms
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and eyes
Liza Deischer: as the hands don't need to be beautiful
Liza Deischer: to me it is more the use, the posture, the abilities it shows
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Liza Deischer: the gestures
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what do You look at Cal, when seeing persons?
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe good circulation or energy flow in hands
Calvino Rabeni: and eyes
Calvino Rabeni: This is getting physical :)) hmmm - I am not one of the people who claims to see auras, but I think I saw one recently
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too, not always
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but sometimes can see
Calvino Rabeni: Or only, that a certain man appeared to me to have a brightness about him that was unusual, a kind of white
Calvino Rabeni: and I was going to ask - what have you been doing?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Calvino Rabeni: But, I didn't know if he thinks it superstitious
Calvino Rabeni: I didn't ask
Liza Deischer: :)
Liza Deischer: never saw an aura
Calvino Rabeni: But a little later he told me, he had a new practice with "chakras"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just a sec, need to clean up simo
Liza Deischer: I try to 'feel' people
Calvino Rabeni: that he had been doing a lot lately
Liza Deischer: that seems to give me the most information
Liza Deischer: ah :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Whatever, it seemed to make him feel and look better
Liza Deischer: or I don't try, it just happens
Liza Deischer: right
Liza Deischer: brb
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
Calvino Rabeni: so am I
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
Yakuzza Lethecus: what does that mean btw ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Yaku ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what?
Yakuzza Lethecus: <3<3y3
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hearts
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on their side
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am persuing my bad habit to eat in front of the pc :)
Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;) hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby its not a bad habit? or??
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes I do that also
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but not under the eye of kids ;))
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, i think my keyboard is of that opinion :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it wont work if all are eating around the house
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there would be huge mess
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Yakuzza Lethecus: but the key´s are very clean when you clip them out and put them into the dishwasher
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t forget to keep a picture of the keylayout somewhere
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes, but there would be food all around ;) lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: kaylayout?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: key
Liza Deischer: otherwise you don't know where to put the keys
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean i type 10 fingers still i can´t tell you where which key belongs to when i clipped them out :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes liza :)
Liza Deischer: neither can I, also using 10 fingers
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too
Liza Deischer: though I guess 1 to 0 will be okay :)
Liza Deischer: I can figure that one out :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: fingers knows where are those key`s
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but if starting to write with one or two fingers, then I have to search them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and look at keys
Liza Deischer: right
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: memory is amazing thing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I need to go now
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to make food
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Liza Deischer: okay
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: see You soon Dear Friends
Liza Deischer: going too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and hugs to all
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye for now
Liza Deischer: bye Cosmic :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Calvino Rabeni: <3333 Cosmic :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i tp to another place
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care
Liza Deischer: oay
Liza Deischer: ok
Liza Deischer: see you Uaku :))

Healthy suffering

Calvino Rabeni: What do you call a human being who is really healthy emotionally and in many other ways
Calvino Rabeni: ?
Liza Deischer: a human being
Liza Deischer: I think being human means you can grow to really become one
Liza Deischer: leaving behind the dependence on the material world
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: which can make us acts like animals, but worse, because there often is anger of hatred involved
Calvino Rabeni: We don't have a good vocabulary for healthy positive qualities and states
Liza Deischer: no
Liza Deischer: I sended you an IM
Liza Deischer: sent
Calvino Rabeni: There's a big gap in the maps of human nature
Calvino Rabeni: a lot of focus on suffering and pathology
Calvino Rabeni: which probably does deserve a lot of attention
Liza Deischer: well, depends
Calvino Rabeni: and then a "leap" to some kind of spirituality
Liza Deischer: there are maps
Liza Deischer: but not in christianity
Calvino Rabeni: but in between - the upper registers of healthy happy humans - not much map for that
Liza Deischer: there are like the kabbala
Liza Deischer: I think Blavatsky described it as well
Calvino Rabeni: Right, some maps have been made - but then it starts to seem like a ladder to climb
Liza Deischer: not necessarily
Calvino Rabeni: maybe not, but it tempts people
Liza Deischer: the kabala shows different 'roads'
Liza Deischer: yes, any map will
Liza Deischer: any map can be read the right and the wrong way
Calvino Rabeni: But there is a new growth industry of professional helpers for that zone of humanity
Calvino Rabeni: life coaches and facilitators, for instance
Liza Deischer: yes, I know
Liza Deischer: wanted to get in time to go with the flow
Liza Deischer: or actually being ahead of it
Calvino Rabeni: they disavow being responsible for solving problems at least, the ones that psychotherapists specialize in
Calvino Rabeni: they say - if you have (list of issues) then look for a qualified professional
Calvino Rabeni: And it's hard I think, for them to promote their services
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: but it depends
Calvino Rabeni: everyone can understand alleviating suffering; many get into "problem solving" mentality
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: but fewer speak clearly about the full human life
Liza Deischer: but I think there is a market growing for other approaches
Calvino Rabeni: Yes it appears to be a growth industry
Calvino Rabeni: but the models need to be different
Liza Deischer: you need to understand the basic working of the human, instinctive mind
Liza Deischer: actually the animal instinctive mind and the way it penetrates the emotional and rational patterns
Liza Deischer: as a start
Liza Deischer: without it your clueless
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, as a start .... then what ...
Calvino Rabeni: Earlier in the session, was a discussion of whether studies like "siddhis" were a "danger" on a spiritual path
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: can be
Liza Deischer: without the right context
Liza Deischer: to buddhist, things siddhis do, are a by-product
Calvino Rabeni: That seems likely, but just as likely, a blanket pronouncement is lacking context also
Liza Deischer: so you need to look for it
Liza Deischer: every person as its 'context' consciously or not
Liza Deischer: some contexts you can work with as a professional, some not
Calvino Rabeni: The warning seems to suggest - that if one were simply happy and free of suffering, they wouldn't have enough suffering to drive them to some even more ultimate state
Calvino Rabeni: As if the suffereing were necessary
Calvino Rabeni: and you don't want too many well-adjusted humans around
Liza Deischer: well they could be right
Calvino Rabeni: Or could be wrong ...
Liza Deischer: my Tibetan teacher has no clues about guilt
Liza Deischer: so can't see how that is penetrating the western mind
Liza Deischer: I have been asking myself the question if I really want to become a boddhisatva
Calvino Rabeni: What are the considerations of that - is it a decision?
Liza Deischer: maybe not really understanding anymore what life is about for a lot of human people
Calvino Rabeni: That doesn't sound like an effective boddhisatva
Liza Deischer: well, Im not considerig it anymore
Liza Deischer: I guess I made a choice
Calvino Rabeni: the effective one lives in the village, isn't that the story?
Liza Deischer: effective for 'healthy' human beings
Liza Deischer: not effective for the ones which suffering is bigger then they can bear
Calvino Rabeni: Healthy means more than just not ill or damaged
Liza Deischer: in this case I put it between quotes, because I mean here what is considered to be healty
Liza Deischer: not needing a therapist
Liza Deischer: or psychiatrists or whatever
Liza Deischer: people that can 'function'
Calvino Rabeni: well that definition of healthy is a relative one dependent on averages
Calvino Rabeni: "function" is relative also
Liza Deischer: but aren't necessarily healthy in spirit
Calvino Rabeni: right
Liza Deischer: I'm talking averages
Calvino Rabeni: that's common, but earlier, I think the idea was, there are all kinds of levels of "health" or functioning
Calvino Rabeni: where do you draw the line?
Liza Deischer: I guess you don't
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I don't see a reasonable way to draw it somewhere
Liza Deischer: there is always development, even for a Buddha
Calvino Rabeni: Is that part of the philosophy? That's interesting
Liza Deischer: I don't know actually :)
Liza Deischer: but for instance enlightenment is taken to be a state
Liza Deischer: buddhists describe eight of them
Calvino Rabeni: Well in any case, there are variations
Liza Deischer: so, is enlightenment the end of the road?
Calvino Rabeni: degrees or whatever
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: not for mahayana buddhists
Liza Deischer: enlightenment is just the first step
Calvino Rabeni: terminology
Liza Deischer: wisdom comes next
Calvino Rabeni: but what's the principle?
Liza Deischer: it is in the goa
Liza Deischer: goal
Liza Deischer: buddha's stay until every scentient being is enlightened
Liza Deischer: that means there is always a development on a material level
Liza Deischer: being placed in different times, places
Liza Deischer: materialized
Liza Deischer: as reincarnations
Liza Deischer: it is never 'done'
Calvino Rabeni: so what is the story?
Liza Deischer: which story?
Calvino Rabeni: does it evolve? If so, does it improve? or does it repeat and cycle, or is there no scale of change at all?
Liza Deischer: I really don't know
Liza Deischer: I'm not at the stage to know
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Liza Deischer: but I don't take it for granted that enlightenment is 'it'
Liza Deischer: I guess I just need to find out :)
Calvino Rabeni: which version of enlightenment do you mean, or, just the general idea of it?
Liza Deischer: the general idea of it
Calvino Rabeni: OK
Liza Deischer: because I also have no clue about enlightenment either
Liza Deischer: clues
Calvino Rabeni: Really ?
Liza Deischer: do you know what it is?
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps, there are clues everywhere - only the big picture is not in focus
Liza Deischer: buddhism is about a path
Liza Deischer: yes you find pieces, true
Liza Deischer: a path to a certain goal, but that goal isn't enlightenment
Liza Deischer: not in itself
Calvino Rabeni: Why assume, that a fact, seen now, and not in its eventual context, will not be important, and actually the same, in a more developed context?
Calvino Rabeni: OKOK
Calvino Rabeni: so god does not exist, in the buddhist perspective?
Liza Deischer: no
Calvino Rabeni: why not ?
Liza Deischer: good question
Liza Deischer: to me it would mean that a part of 'me' is outside me
Liza Deischer: it doesn't make sense
Calvino Rabeni: It seems, many people in the buddhist world, like to worship many dieties, and also to worship the idea of buddha, in spite of some requests from that historical figure not to do so
Liza Deischer: I know
Liza Deischer: but worshipping can be different things
Liza Deischer: there is a strong devotional part
Liza Deischer: but not without asking questions
Liza Deischer: the devotional part is more like you acknowledge the quality of a 'teacher'
Liza Deischer: whether it is your own teacher or a diety
Liza Deischer: but it is not knowledge outside yourself
Liza Deischer: devotion can make it 'alive'
Liza Deischer: can give you clues about the qualities
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: seeing and examining it in yourself
Liza Deischer: when you place it outside yourself, buddhist or not, it isn't buddhism
Liza Deischer: as far as I understand :)
Liza Deischer: it is like placing it outside to have a better look at it
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Liza Deischer: brb, nature calling
Liza Deischer: the material world :)
Liza Deischer: making you do things, if you like it or not
Liza Deischer: it makes you drink, eat, pee, poo, sleep
Calvino Rabeni: Might as well get to like it
Calvino Rabeni: There's no where else to go
Liza Deischer smiles
Liza Deischer: what I just mean is that matter does matter
Liza Deischer: but that is another discussion :)
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
Calvino Rabeni: And here's another one that is on my mind
Calvino Rabeni: .... (considering whether to say -- just joking)
Liza Deischer: ?
Calvino Rabeni: Well I'm considering how to frame the question
Liza Deischer: ok
Calvino Rabeni: Well, how about, stupidly (as a start) - yeah, that's it !
Liza Deischer: meaning?
Calvino Rabeni: So, all this emphasis on "awareness" - in the west at least, it's kind of locked away within indivuduals due to our metaphysics
Calvino Rabeni: So this - how do we ensure that awareness based studies, don't simply reinforce an imbalanced tendency toward individualism
Liza Deischer: sadly yes
Calvino Rabeni: and thus have an unhealthy ethical effect?
Liza Deischer: I guess in buddhism the sangha is a great tool for that
Liza Deischer: the people around you, the community
Calvino Rabeni: And secondly, how to justify or defend such studies, towards the value system of people who see the importance of relationships, cooperation, and community
Calvino Rabeni: Right, the sangha is critical for that in buddhism
Calvino Rabeni: but what about in non-buddhism?
Liza Deischer: I don't know
Calvino Rabeni: There needs to be something for people who want to know the truths about their experience
Liza Deischer: my initial idea with the shift is to create a community
Calvino Rabeni: and aren't interested in picking up an eastern philosophy
Calvino Rabeni: I understand that, Liza, about the Shift
Liza Deischer: a place where people who can't find answers can go to, ask questions
Calvino Rabeni: the question is, how important is buddhism to that project?
Liza Deischer: but you know, I guess that is one of the reasons i think that a method is important
Calvino Rabeni: I ask, because, it is a microcosm of the question I asked earlier about western culture as a whole
Liza Deischer: well in sl, very, in rl also, but the goal will be different
Calvino Rabeni: Not because I think the shift should be this or that way :)
Liza Deischer: if I ever come to that
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: but in sl I can't do what I want to do in rl
Liza Deischer: so I'm more focussing on meditation
Liza Deischer: discussions
Liza Deischer: focussed on what we consider 'healthy' people
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: well for one thing, there are ethical boundaries involved
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: but in a way trying to provide some sort of method and community
Calvino Rabeni: Healthy (or beyond) people are presumed to be responsible for their own decisions
Calvino Rabeni: there is not the presumption of responsibility that occurs with a therapist
Liza Deischer: yes, still need to monitor it
Liza Deischer: no
Liza Deischer: then it gets more complicated
Calvino Rabeni: yes that's true
Liza Deischer: andmy method is based on buddhism, but taking out the real buddhist elements
Liza Deischer: I'm trying to use the elements that are useful for everyone
Liza Deischer: that is why I want to participate on the psychological level mostly
Liza Deischer: but I don't have another answer I'm afraid, and I agree with you that there is a risk
Liza Deischer: people meditation on their own
Calvino Rabeni: life involves risk
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: *meditating
Calvino Rabeni: Well that sounds scary :)
Calvino Rabeni: So what can we do now not to scare people off?
Liza Deischer: the only thing I can come up with is offering a community
Liza Deischer: and offering basic rules
Calvino Rabeni: I agree that is important
Calvino Rabeni: community that is
Liza Deischer: and basic rules in what 'dropping' really means
Calvino Rabeni: But I would not want to promote the idea that - if you don't follow certain basic rules - it will be dangerous in some way
Calvino Rabeni: People are pretty well self-regulating in my view
Calvino Rabeni: Things go wrong mainly if they push themselvs too much, or allow themselves to be pushed
Liza Deischer: well, there are different ways to do it
Calvino Rabeni: beyond their knowledge of self-regulation
Liza Deischer: as you say you can lead the horses to the water
Liza Deischer: you can't make them drink
Calvino Rabeni: so it's safe for the horse
Liza Deischer: but I'm not so sure about self-regulation
Calvino Rabeni: if they are thirsty they will drink
Liza Deischer: right
Calvino Rabeni: if not, at least, they are not going to drown
Calvino Rabeni: and so the "danger" is they will stay the same
Liza Deischer: or worse
Calvino Rabeni: but that's already, the zone of maximum safety according to their current understanding
Liza Deischer: having refined their ego in ways of delusions
Liza Deischer: deluding themselves
Calvino Rabeni: protective gear, that is
Liza Deischer: that is true
Liza Deischer: so, I'm not in favour of saying, this is the only way
Liza Deischer: and I do except people in meditation of which I'm not sure what they are doing
Liza Deischer: but I can only tell what I know, making suggestions
Liza Deischer: and I wouldn't like to do it in any different way
Liza Deischer: if they really pick it up, I don't know
Liza Deischer: but that is not for me to say or to tell
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: and you know, you need to give people time, new concepts take up about 2 or 3 years before you start to understand some of it
Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, what does it imply about communicating those concepts in the first place?
Liza Deischer: and in the end people do what they think is best for them and that is the only right way
Liza Deischer: wll, I just hope people stick around or find other places where they can grow
Liza Deischer: maybe after a few years, starting to rethink things
Liza Deischer: and I guess that it is important to give numerous perspectives on the 'concept' or method or whatever it is
Calvino Rabeni: true
Liza Deischer: what stiks with one, doesn't stick with another
Liza Deischer: and finally you just...... let it go
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, awareness, or method first - it isn't really an either/or choice
Liza Deischer: no, I don't think so
Calvino Rabeni: but I've had teachers who emphasized one over the other
Calvino Rabeni: or said in another way, they foregrounded it
Liza Deischer: well, some need one more then the other
Liza Deischer: or want to pick up one and don't want to get involved in the other
Calvino Rabeni: those preferences get in the way of effective learning
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: playasbeing is minimalist with respect to method - which is a strength and a weakness
Liza Deischer: after a nice rain, the sun is shining here again
Liza Deischer: yes
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: It is the strengths that count most in these matters
Liza Deischer: maybe :)
Calvino Rabeni: maybe :)
Calvino Rabeni: That seems like a good place to stop
Calvino Rabeni: for me that is, given the late hour
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the chat Liza :)
Liza Deischer: yes, that is probably why I let the sun come in :)
Liza Deischer: thank you too :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now, take care