2010.08.05 13:00 - Silence and Sleep

The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This session was attended by Calvino, Bruce, Morgano, Zon, Arabella, and Darren. The first 15 minutes of this session, we sat in impromptu silence, and the remainder we talked about Tonglen being good for insomnia and about sleep and dreams.

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Calvino :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bruce :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Sophia and Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sharon and Cal.

--BELL--

morgano Bravin: Hello everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Morgano :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bonjour, morgano.
SophiaSharon Larnia: have you been here before Morgano?
morgano Bravin: yes thanks
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
morgano Bravin: got the card etc
SophiaSharon Larnia: so you are aware we record our conversations and post them on the wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/?
morgano Bravin: yes thank you
SophiaSharon Larnia: we were presently sitting in silence :) No particular topic atm
morgano Bravin: sounds good to me
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zon
morgano Bravin: Hello Zon
Zon Quar: hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Bonjour, Zon.
morgano Bravin: are any of you buddhists?
morgano Bravin: or familiar with the practice?
Zon Quar: ive studied a bit
morgano Bravin: I was wondering about something
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm familiar of the practice, I'm not sure what to call myself :)
Zon Quar: but if iv understood right..there r many practises
morgano Bravin: for example,,if one comes across a person in some sad and sorry state
SophiaSharon Larnia: listens
morgano Bravin: in buddhism,,is one to treat them in a neutral way as their condition is a result of karma
morgano Bravin: or maybe samsara
Zon Quar: i think one should help if possible
Zon Quar: if not then feel compassionate
morgano Bravin: presumably one looks at them and thinks,,'oh well its their own doing'?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, to help, may be why the situation presents itself
SophiaSharon Larnia: it could be multi-threaded
Zon Quar: not to help when one can..can bring bad karma to one self
morgano Bravin: thank you
SophiaSharon Larnia: just musing :)
morgano Bravin: but that may be selfish?
Zon Quar: to be compassionate ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: to help just because you will accumulate? perhaps
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Ara
Bruce Mowbray: Bonjour, arabella.
Zon Quar: isnt it selfish not to hlep
morgano Bravin: no, to act compassionate in case it may bring oneself bad karma
arabella Ella: Hiya!
morgano Bravin: Hello Arabella
SophiaSharon Larnia: i see that as the same thing
SophiaSharon Larnia: flip side of one coin
Zon Quar: depends always on ur motive

--BELL--

morgano Bravin: I know I can now feel compassion without thinking about it beforehand
morgano Bravin: sorry
Bruce Mowbray: @ morgano, One of the Buddhist practices I find especially valuable is Tonglen.
SophiaSharon Larnia: (brb)
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.shambhala.org/teachings/view.php?id=98
morgano Bravin: thankyou Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yw.
SophiaSharon Larnia: back :)
Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen also works wonderfully well for insomniacs.
SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Calvino :)
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Cal.
arabella Ella: how could a practice work for insomniacs Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: I am a diagnosed (and medicated) insomniac...
Bruce Mowbray: and when I practice Tonglen. . . the next thing I know, it's morning!
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
morgano Bravin: what was your unmedicated sleep pattern like Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: true.
Bruce Mowbray: pattern?
Bruce Mowbray: no sleep!
arabella Ella: did you not sleep at all?
morgano Bravin: yes, i mean,,how much sleep did u get before medication or practice?
Bruce Mowbray: for two nights -- then I started to lose my mind the third night. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and a doctor had to intervene.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
morgano Bravin: I see
Bruce Mowbray: that was over 15 years ago.
arabella Ella: wow
morgano Bravin: I read somewhere that it is life threatening if one goes without sleep for a week or so
Bruce Mowbray: been medicated (1 mg Lorazapam) ever since.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, fortunately my doctor (also a personal friend) saw that and came to my home to help.
morgano Bravin: how would they know whether you are naturally over the predicament?
Bruce Mowbray: and stayed with me the entire night.
SophiaSharon Larnia: that is compassionate!
Bruce Mowbray: well, in my case, it was clear -- because I was able to sleep again.
morgano Bravin: yes, very
Bruce Mowbray: Actually, I had lost my confidence that I could sleep --
morgano Bravin: but you may not need medication now?
Bruce Mowbray: so it was a matter of regaining that confidence and "trust"
morgano Bravin: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we're hoping that I will soon be off all the med -- very soon.
morgano Bravin: did it follow a particular event in life?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, a traumatic event.
morgano Bravin: a trauma?
morgano Bravin: sorry,,i am slow
Bruce Mowbray: yes, but I'd rather not go into that, if you don't mind.
morgano Bravin: of course,,I understand
SophiaSharon Larnia: the world becomes something else without sleep
Bruce Mowbray: suffice it to say -- that when I do Tonglen, I send help to all others who might have experienced the same.
morgano Bravin: yes,,hallucinating and weird stuff
Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen can be as specific or as general as you wish it to be.
morgano Bravin: I will read the link later Bruce,,i have copied it to my desktop
Bruce Mowbray: (looks like I've put Zon to sleep) ha ha!
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'll listen closely later (places it in favorites) :)
Zon Quar: mm..so nice dreams
Bruce Mowbray: That link is by Pema Chodron -- but there are many others you can find through Google.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice dreams Zon?
Zon Quar: yes...
Bruce Mowbray: although I do not consider myself an "official" Buddhist, the practice of Tonglen is one of the most wonderful things I've learned through Buddhist teachings.
morgano Bravin: I have seen many during my perusals,,but the link will be interesting
SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go... bye for now all :)
morgano Bravin: bye ssl
SophiaSharon Larnia: have fun :)))
Zon Quar: bye s
morgano Bravin: and you

--BELL--

arabella Ella: now just imagine if in the future a machine is invented which could easily put us to sleep and which would wake us up nice and gently whenever we wished
arabella Ella: ooooops
morgano Bravin: shhhh
morgano Bravin: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bonjour, Darren.
Darren Islar: hi :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Darren!
morgano Bravin: Hello Darren
Darren Islar: hi all :)
Calvino Rabeni: @ara, a machine like that could make us all into nice people :)
Darren Islar: a sleeping machine ?
arabella Ella: yes a sleeping machine or pod which does things nicely and gently all properly controlled
Bruce Mowbray thinks he'd prefer a gentle stream...
Zon Quar: it has already been i nvented
arabella Ella: oh i need one Zon to help me wake up as I have opposite problem to Bruce!
Zon Quar: its called the mind..but we cant easily use it
morgano Bravin: giggles
arabella Ella reflects on what Zon said ...
Zon Quar: my mind is putting me to sleep now...waves
Darren Islar: bye Zon
morgano Bravin: bye Zon
arabella Ella: bye Zon
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Zon.
arabella Ella: well perhaps the machine i imagine for sleep could also have dream controls
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders about arbella's reflections on what Zon said
arabella Ella: ok here goes
arabella Ella: i guess the human mind could be controlled
arabella Ella: but what it always boils down to is conditioning and self control
arabella Ella: and if you are conditioned in one way and dont manage to control yourself well enough then that's it ... sleep in late etc
Calvino Rabeni: If such a machine had dream controls, would people drop a dvd into it and put in well maybe - the gamut of entertainment, including zombie dramas and boy-meets-girl ...
arabella Ella: so a machine could still help ... besides the human mind
Bruce Mowbray still prefers a gentle stream.
Darren Islar: or maybe the opposite and dropping it all
Darren Islar: :)
arabella Ella: would be nice if we could choose our dreams according to our personal tastes wouldn't it?
arabella Ella: and Bruce no gentle streams on this little island
morgano Bravin: well,,we can fantasize
Calvino Rabeni: but isn't that what already happens, Ara?
arabella Ella: so that is impossible
arabella Ella: yes Calvino that is what happens and a machine could help both those who cant sleep as well as those (like me) who would like to sleep less
Bruce Mowbray: @ arabella. . . That's why my avatar sleeps elsewhere (on another island, as it were).
Calvino Rabeni: who was it that chose my dreams, and according to whose tastes ? :)
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: you would choose your own dreams according to your own tastes
morgano Bravin: I fantasize so much that its more like a fantasy to see the real world,,as far as I can know what the real world is anyway
morgano Bravin: this is why I like play as being idea's
arabella Ella: :)
morgano Bravin: its grounding in a pleasant way
Bruce Mowbray: Excuse me just a moment. I'll be right back. . .
arabella Ella: dreaming according to this vision i proposed would then be similar to playing a DVD with oneself as protagonist
arabella Ella: however i guess that would remove all the proper functions which dreams have
Darren Islar: :)

--BELL--

morgano Bravin: I have read that Pema has suggested trying to look at life from the perspective of seeing it as a movie
arabella Ella: shhhhhhhhh
arabella Ella: :)
morgano Bravin: if understand correctly
morgano Bravin: oops
morgano Bravin: its after the hour now
Calvino Rabeni: What are some current ideas about the proper function of dreams?
arabella Ella: not too sure about current ideas but they help to .... argh ... trying to remember ... get rid of some unpleasant stuff perhaps like 'id' stuff?
Bruce Mowbray: Do you mean our OWN ideas, or those of psychologists, etc?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
morgano Bravin: I have to go dancing now,,bye everyone
Bruce Mowbray: both?
Bruce Mowbray: bye, morgano!
arabella Ella: bye morgano
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Darren Islar: bye morgana :)
arabella Ella: but i must say i hate nightmares even though they are not frequent
Bruce Mowbray: various "purposes". . .
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes to sort things out -- untangle them.
arabella Ella: sometimes to confuse us more
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes to bring into consciousness stuff that's been repressed.
Calvino Rabeni: repressed, or - not yet understood
arabella Ella: sometimes as a vent for pent up unrecognized emotions
Calvino Rabeni: new knowledge
arabella Ella: oh repressed was the word i needed
Bruce Mowbray: well -- both repressed and not understood.
Bruce Mowbray: like stuff that I was not even aware of yet.
Calvino Rabeni: Repressed is a freudian idea
Bruce Mowbray: How so with "repressed", ara?
Calvino Rabeni: which assumes the stuff was conscious to begin with
Calvino Rabeni: but dreams of a source of NEW knowledge, not ever before conscious ..
arabella Ella: i said 'unrecognized emotions' when i meant 'repressed' Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: which is different than repressed
Bruce Mowbray: yes - - -definitely, ara!
Calvino Rabeni: emergent knowledge
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
arabella Ella: i still sometimes wish i could choose the 'genre' of dream for a night
arabella Ella: like romantic, childhood, vacation, adventure, etc
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. Interesting idea, arabella, but that sounds a bit "heroic" to me. Like lucid dreaming.
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
Calvino Rabeni: I understand yes
arabella Ella: yes it is a bit like lucid dreaming
Darren Islar: I guess it depends how far back memories goes
Darren Islar: if memories pass the boundaries of our lives, it could well be we remember something 'old'
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: must be off now thanks for the chat bye everyone!
Calvino Rabeni: Some say it's possible to remember the future
Darren Islar: bye Ara :)
Bruce Mowbray: bye, arabella!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye ara, sweet dreams - just as you like them :)
arabella Ella: :)
Darren Islar: but maybe the future is old
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe the past is new :)
Bruce Mowbray: and the "now". . . .? neither old nor new?
Bruce Mowbray: can we dream of "Now"?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this is our dream of now
Calvino Rabeni: This now
Bruce Mowbray wonders: Is this a dream?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but it is "synced up" with the reality matrix in ways mostly beyond our control
Darren Islar wonders
Calvino Rabeni: The world put the DVD into our dream machine
Calvino Rabeni: and we are the results
Bruce Mowbray: "beyond our control". . . Is that why we are physically paralyzed during REM sleep?
Calvino Rabeni: That is a safety feature of the "machine"
Darren Islar: no, that is because we dream
Calvino Rabeni: so I don't bash into things physically while dreaming of running
Bruce Mowbray understands Cal but not Darren.
Darren Islar: if we weren't paralyzed, we would act out our dreams
Darren Islar: so it is a safety something
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Yes, that's in agreement with Cal.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: a valuable product of evolution, then.
Darren Islar: yes
Bruce Mowbray muses: Those who DID act our their dreams physically, probably ran off cliffs - - thereby ending that line of genes.
Darren Islar: but is this a dream
Bruce Mowbray: THIS? SL, you mean?
Darren Islar: or hurt others
Calvino Rabeni: Or they were found by predators but didn't see them coming
Darren Islar: this 'now' (if that exists)
Calvino Rabeni: The chapter on Imagination is good, in the book Beauty, by O'Donohue
Bruce Mowbray: That's an excellent question that I struggled with this week -- for the Time Sessions report.
Bruce Mowbray: I shall make a point of checking that out, Cal.
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know about this book, Darren?
Darren Islar: no
Bruce Mowbray: ok -- just sec and I'll find it for you. . .
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Invisib.../dp/0060957263
Bruce Mowbray: yup -- there it is!
Bruce Mowbray: (or am I just dreaming that?)
Darren Islar: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Dreaming the truth :)
Bruce Mowbray: My empty stomach has dreams of its own -- supper! and so I must be off.
Calvino Rabeni: Ah and for me, the big dream right now is named "Lunch" :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh dear. . . looks like too much Herb!
Guest: hi all
Darren Islar: bye Bruce
Darren Islar: to me it will be 'dreaming'
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Guest.
Calvino Rabeni: So I'll be off too, thanks for the chat :)
Guest: where you are from?
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
Bruce Mowbray: bye, everyone.
Darren Islar: bye