2010.08.29 13:00 - meditation, moral and ethics

The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

Bertram Jacobus: hi wester
Bertram Jacobus: hey sartre
Sartre Placebo: hey guys
Wester Kiranov: hi bert, hello sartre
Sartre Placebo: hey everyone
Bertram Jacobus: sartre, i see you only as a little cloud ... ;-)
Sartre Placebo: a cloud as usually
Sartre Placebo: hi aph
Bertram Jacobus: autsch ;-)
Wester Kiranov: hi aphrodite
Bertram Jacobus: hi aph ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all
Sartre Placebo: hehe, ur learning japanese aph ?
Sartre Placebo: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: did you read the log from yesterday?
Wester Kiranov: who's going to claim this session? I understand Maxine can't be here
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm still a newbie
Bertram Jacobus: somebody will claim it i guess ;-)
Sartre Placebo: i can´t since sartre isn´t in the group
Aphrodite Macbain: Both of you have experience, no?
Aphrodite Macbain: Where is Sartre?
Wester Kiranov: I still haven't figured out how to get the time codes off the spare log
Wester Kiranov: in beta
Sartre Placebo: sartre is here, yaku is on thothica
Wester Kiranov: and the normal e-mailed log is a bit iffy at the moment
Aphrodite Macbain: can't see you SArtre, you're jsut a grey blob

(i claimed the log)

Wester Kiranov: ty bert
Bertram Jacobus: yw wester
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: and all ;-)
Wester Kiranov: hi liza
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Liza
Sartre Placebo: hey liza
Bertram Jacobus: hi liza :-)
Liza Deischer: hi Wester, Bert, Aphro and little cloud Sartre
Bertram Jacobus: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite.... is that a hoola hoop? hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you like the pot of yellow flowers I brought?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wester!
Aphrodite Macbain: it's a school of yellow fishes!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, very nice yes
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Liza
Eliza Madrigal: ah.. now I see more clearly
Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Sartre
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Liza and Eliza
Wester Kiranov: ah, those are your flowers
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I put them here a few hous ago. They're still here
Liza Deischer: Storm hasn't been around for a long time
Eliza Madrigal: Storm has been really busy, yes
Eliza Madrigal: I've been working on making a tab especially for new guardians...
Aphrodite Macbain: in RL?
Aphrodite Macbain: what would the tab do?
Eliza Madrigal: keeping it very basic. Maybe that will help
Eliza Madrigal: :) Just give simplified instructions I hope
Eliza Madrigal: no extras
Aphrodite Macbain: Like a note card?
Eliza Madrigal: then extras can be found once someone is very comfortable
Wester Kiranov: your fish type along with you. they must be very intelligent :)
Eliza Madrigal: something like that :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It got a bit confusing this morning when everyone was contributing.
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Wester
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: it will be a useful page after someone knows what to do and wants to refresh
Aphrodite Macbain: Actually the snow snowed along with me but I put a stop to that
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe not before that :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Aphrodite
Eliza Madrigal: (this morning's session I mean, hopefully not the one I'm making now)
Wester Kiranov: hi steve
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi steve
Liza Deischer: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello all
Aphrodite Macbain: Steve do you play the digeridoo?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, been looking at better ones recently, mine is bamboo
Aphrodite Macbain: Love the sound it makes. A little spooky
stevenaia Michinaga: nice you can buy them direct from Austrailia
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it;s medtative in a techno kinda way
Liza Deischer: and I think the breathing has a meditative effect on your body?
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to drive my family a bit crazy, so I must be doing something right
Aphrodite Macbain: certainly a calming effect
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Liza Deischer: hehe
Wester Kiranov: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Are there dd groups that play together or it is a solo kind of thing?
stevenaia Michinaga: I have not played with a group like a drum circle, but never felt good enought to even look
Aphrodite Macbain: I had friend who played the fench hunting horn and whenever he travelled he would look up groups to play with
Aphrodite Macbain: frnch
Aphrodite Macbain: French!
stevenaia Michinaga: my typing style is contacgious
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Steve
Aphrodite Macbain: my keyboard is on strike
Aphrodite Macbain: pun intended
Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine that playing a musical instrument would be a form of meditation
Liza Deischer: it can be yes
Aphrodite Macbain: that timeless flow
stevenaia Michinaga: I belive that just about anything you can focus on can be meditative
Liza Deischer: depends I guess what you think meditation is
Liza Deischer: right
Aphrodite Macbain: yes - I find doing Tai Chi more walking a form of meditation
Aphrodite Macbain: or walking
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Liza Deischer: but making music is a pretty easy way to get the right focus, not having that makes playing difficult
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. it would be best if you could play well, without engaging the thinking part of the rain
Wester Kiranov: I guess whether something is mediative doesn't depend so much on what you do as on how you do it
Aphrodite Macbain: brain
Liza Deischer: yes Wester
Aphrodite Macbain: like washing dishes can be meditative
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, definitely
Aphrodite Macbain: my mother used to call that "day dreaming"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
Wester Kiranov: I'm still working on that one :)
Bertram Jacobus: hi pila
Wester Kiranov: dishes
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Wester Kiranov: hi pila
Sartre Placebo: hi pila
Liza Deischer: hi Pila
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Pila, nice to met you
Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: meet
Liza Deischer: hi Zen
Wester Kiranov: hi zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: we're talking about meditating and its many forms
Pila Mulligan: nice
Zen Arado: good
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: forgive me for zonking out here and there, am working on something but attentive here also
stevenaia Michinaga: I often felt much of what I do at work is a meditation on creativity
Aphrodite Macbain: I love it when people first appear wrapped in the primal grey mud of birthing and then slowly get washed by P@B clean clear spirit
Liza Deischer: I guess daydreaming is a different kind of trade :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: similar to how I feel PaB is a very creative meditation
--BELL--
Zen Arado: I saw a little video on creativity by John Cleese the other day
Aphrodite Macbain: I will take this time to disappear back into te primordial grey of the universe
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Bertram Jacobus: hi qt
Qt Core: hi all
Pila Mulligan: bye Aphrodite, hi Qt
stevenaia Michinaga: hello QT
Wester Kiranov: bye aphrodite, hi qt
Bertram Jacobus: bye aph
Liza Deischer: bye Aphro
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Zen Arado: Bye Aphro, Hi Qt
stevenaia Michinaga: FYI: I added another photo to this morning's log with all the balloons, near the end
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for posting it Eliza
stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29_08:00_-_Guardian_Session:_Tips_for_New_Hosts%3F&action=submit&text=Chat%20Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29%2008:00%20-%20Guardian%20Session:%20Tips%20for%20New%20Hosts?&pageId=4664§ionId=
stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29_08%3a00_-_Guardian_Session%3a_Tips_for_New_Hosts%3f
stevenaia Michinaga: that may be better
Eliza Madrigal: thanks so much for doing that Steve :)
Eliza Madrigal: I took a picture of that, I thought, but couldn't find it
Eliza Madrigal: I've been working on a really simple few pages for new guardians but I'm not sure if I've got all the technicalities right yet...
Liza Deischer: ah QT found symmetry again :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/New_Guardian_Tutorials/How_To:_Posting_a_Chat_Log
Qt Core: and freedom from the fishes too ;-) Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: this is all the extras removed, basically
Wester Kiranov: symmetry if you ignore our botanical friend
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Qt Core: are we so stressed we need chamomille ?
Eliza Madrigal: I sure am...
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Wester Kiranov: maybe the plant is stressed
Eliza Madrigal: needs to day dream
Liza Deischer: :)
Qt Core: stressed chamomille ... what they drink... human blood ? it would be fair ;-)
Wester Kiranov: *grin*
Liza Deischer: :)
Wester Kiranov: no, it just came here to hear the soothing sound of our lovely voices
Wester Kiranov: and now it's not in voice! hope it understands chat too
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if everything/anything can be done with meditative intent
Eliza Madrigal: it will have to come back for the friday voice session...
Zen Arado: does that 'Tag' function still work Eliza? I haven't been using it
Liza Deischer: you can imagine any sound you want, coming with our voices :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sure Zen
Pila Mulligan believes everything/anything can be done with meditative intent
Eliza Madrigal: I have to go.... sorry... ack
Wester Kiranov: maybe it's hard to murder meditatiovely, for instance
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eliza
Zen Arado: ok bye Eliza
Wester Kiranov: bye eliza
Liza Deischer: bye Eliza (for the record)
Qt Core: i think samurais do their killing in an almost meditative state
Zen Arado: I think you would be fully in the moment of a murder though
Liza Deischer: yes, everything can be used in a bad way
Qt Core: the dark side of the Force...
Qt Core: but then they weren'r doing evil things they were soldiers for their country
Wester Kiranov: I suppose being meditative is not enough, in itself
stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunate side of the coin
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Druth
Liza Deischer: hi Druth
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Pila Mulligan: yep, ethics are needed also
Wester Kiranov: hi druth
Bertram Jacobus: sry - i was quite distracted - am not at home - showed sl to friends and will leave now - may all beings be happy plz ! *wave* ...
Pila Mulligan: hi Druth
Pila Mulligan: bye Bertram
Qt Core: bye bert
Wester Kiranov: bye bert
Zen Arado: bye Bert
druth Vlodovic: cya bert
Liza Deischer: to me that is a difficult question QT
Liza Deischer: bye Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: tyty :-) bye
Qt Core: yes, never an easy one, but even in a non clear way there is/should be a difference bwtween bad and evil
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: there is a clear difference depending which side of the coin you are standing on
Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure
Wester Kiranov: but ethics don't just materialize either. You get them from somewhere
stevenaia Michinaga: its always the other side
Liza Deischer: so it seems
Pila Mulligan: we can usually distinguish between things we like and things we don't like
Qt Core: yes, the pov is quite important here
Pila Mulligan: the trick is to likt ethical things :)
Qt Core: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I must depart, thanks and see you soon
Wester Kiranov: but even ethics isn't that clear-cut
Qt Core: bye steve
druth Vlodovic: bye steve
Zen Arado: bye Steve
Wester Kiranov: bye steve
Liza Deischer: bye Steve (again for the record)
Zen Arado: ethics is a big subject
Liza Deischer: I agree
druth Vlodovic: I like to break it down to as simple a cancept as possible, and then see if I can extrapolate my ethics
Wester Kiranov: very big
Liza Deischer: sounds like a usefull tool Druth
Wester Kiranov: and how do you decide if you can extrapolate?
Pila Mulligan: bye steve
Liza Deischer: or usefull approach, I should say
Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
Zen Arado: it has its dangers
druth Vlodovic: logic exercises, keeping in mind that logic chains can go anywhere if you don't control them
Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
Qt Core: hi sophia
druth Vlodovic: hey sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves to everyone
Wester Kiranov: I think logic can be very dangerous in ethics
Zen Arado: Hi Sharon :)
Liza Deischer: hi Sophia
Pila Mulligan: ethics seems to me to be a personal thing, as opposed to morality and laws that are more institutional things
Zen Arado: there is a problem of 'Foundationalism'
Wester Kiranov: and anyway, no logic system is complete, and all the ethically interesting cases are in that part :)
Liza Deischer: and sometimes you need to make a choice between two bad things
Zen Arado: thinking you have found a good starting point , but it may be dubious
Liza Deischer: there is not always a good choice
Wester Kiranov: good point zen
Zen Arado: ther are no foundational assumptions that are valid really
Zen Arado: because of impermanence
druth Vlodovic: but with a simple starting point you can go back and compare your decision to it
Wester Kiranov: It's not always that simple
Zen Arado: ok but if your starting point is shaky the whole structure you build on is too
Wester Kiranov: even when it's just the choice between two alternatives, the devil's in the details
Zen Arado: Like Descartes 'I think therefore I am'
Wester Kiranov: and then he deducts God within a page
Zen Arado: yep
Liza Deischer: right, there is nog clear right and wrong
druth Vlodovic: I'd have to know God really really well before I'd consider putting him in as a moral starting point
Qt Core: life and history would be boring if it was a clear cut
Zen Arado: maybe Qt :)
Zen Arado: if it was too logical
Wester Kiranov: well, then you won't have to worry about boredom :)
Zen Arado: thinks of Mr Spock for some reason
Wester Kiranov: :)
druth Vlodovic: "May you live in interesting times." isn't considered a blessing :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Wester Kiranov: I'm going to call it a day now. bye
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Wester :)
Zen Arado: bye Wester
Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
druth Vlodovic: cya west
Liza Deischer: bye Wester
Qt Core: bye Wester
Zen Arado: so..how should we decide what is ethical or not?
Liza Deischer: somehow I don't like the word ethical
Liza Deischer: it sounds almost objective, but isn't at all
Zen Arado: right or wrong action?
Zen Arado: yes agree Liza
Pila Mulligan: well, if you suppose we have free will, we can probably decide however we wish
Zen Arado: it makes you think of a 'system' of rules
druth Vlodovic: I'd prefer it if it was objective
Pila Mulligan: pure ethics need not be rule based
Liza Deischer: yes
Zen Arado: usually a formulated list though?
Pila Mulligan: remember situational ethics?
Qt Core: but then each one has his own set of values, imposed and/or choosen
Zen Arado: but is that ethics?
Pila Mulligan: sure
Pila Mulligan: ethics is just a guide for conduct
Liza Deischer: ah context, yest that is important
--BELL--
Zen Arado: ideally we shouldn't need any rules or guidelines for how to behave
Liza Deischer: what can be wrong one time, can be the right thing to do another time
Zen Arado: agree Liza
Zen Arado: but laws are derived from moral values
Qt Core: it depends on the other options you have on each situation
druth Vlodovic: we always have guidelines on how to behave, just we usually forgot where we got them
Zen Arado: I think they are agreed upon guidelines by members of a society
Liza Deischer: yes, but those internalized guidelines
Zen Arado: we inculcate them into our children
Liza Deischer: even harder to get to know them
Pila Mulligan: morals and laws are social constructs Zen, kind of a design by committee thing
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Pila Mulligan: they can change easily too
Zen Arado: yes I agree
Liza Deischer: and to see how they work, in a good or not so good way
Pila Mulligan: and are not really useful in many cases
Zen Arado: oh yes - society ideas change
druth Vlodovic: lol, I was just at the Ottawa "gay pride parade" today
Zen Arado: thinks back to morals of the 60's - so different to now
Zen Arado: exactly
Zen Arado: you could get put in prison for gayness then
Liza Deischer: to decide if she should do something or not, a friend of mine is not asking herself if it will be good or bad, but if it will be wholesome
druth Vlodovic: how is wholesome defined?
Zen Arado: ah - a good Buddhist perspective Liza?
Liza Deischer: that it will contribute to a good structure
Liza Deischer: it doesn't always means to be nice
Qt Core: still a choice between good or bad, just another parameter for measuring goodness
Zen Arado: yes - we each might have a different take on 'wholesomeness'
Liza Deischer: sure, but one you ask yourself questions about
Liza Deischer: not acting out of habit or acting out of rules
Liza Deischer: sure Zen
Liza Deischer: and maybe those rules fit the person
Liza Deischer: because the person also is part of a context
Liza Deischer: or I mean those looks on wholesomeness
Zen Arado: moral values are designed to prevent us from harming others and ourselves aren't they?
Liza Deischer: not always
Zen Arado: basically
druth Vlodovic: or to help the people in charge stay in charge
Liza Deischer: it can also mean that somebody or a group wants to maintain their power
druth Vlodovic: or to improve the luck of the community by manipulating the gods
Zen Arado: hmmm...maybe...can you give me an example?
Liza Deischer: well you gave one
Pila Mulligan: we may be looking at 'actual' moral values versus imposed group moral values
Liza Deischer: being gay is still an issue
Liza Deischer: bring in so called christin values to the discussion
Liza Deischer: might sound very moral
druth Vlodovic: god didn't like it so it's immoral, if we annoy god he is mean to us
Liza Deischer: right, but who is telling me what god means?
Zen Arado: but are there 'actual' moral values Pil?
Zen Arado: that is the question
Pila Mulligan: maybe, maybe not -- I cannot say :)
Pila Mulligan: many people believe there are, however, and that counts
Zen Arado: if you believe they are dictated by God there are
Pila Mulligan: :)
Liza Deischer: I'm not a big believer of moral standards if they have no bases
Zen Arado: but even those are not detailed enough
Pila Mulligan: living in the moment kind of contradicts following a predetermined rule
Liza Deischer: To me morality is a human thing, more then a God-thing
Zen Arado: but if they are only guidelines they are flexible to the situation
Liza Deischer: right Pila
Liza Deischer: and true Zen
Pila Mulligan: yes, guidelines can help
Zen Arado: as Liza said earlier there are times it would be moral to kill or lie etc
Pila Mulligan: love is a good guidline
Liza Deischer: hmmm okay, yes, like the ten commandments
Zen Arado: yes Pila very true
Zen Arado: and compassion
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: truth
druth Vlodovic: I'd argue with the idea of basing a moral code on love, too unstable, hard to analyze
Liza Deischer: thinking of it now, guidelines is actually a very nice word
Pila Mulligan: maybe the person doing so would need to have an idea of what love means
Zen Arado: most of these concepts are when you think about them:)
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: (need a new keyboard :))
Pila Mulligan is hoping the Hawaii team can win the Little League World Series Championship Game, even thuogh they are behind the Japan team now 2-1
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Liza Deischer: huh? :)
Pila Mulligan: little league baseball
Pila Mulligan: kids
Liza Deischer: maybe analyzing isn't what we should be doing
Zen Arado: agree Liza
Liza Deischer: or not in a way to distilate objective rules
Pila Mulligan: wu wei can be a form of ethical guidance
Liza Deischer: right
Zen Arado: when we meditate we can develop a steady mind that can 'see' the best thing to do instinctively
Zen Arado: I think anyway
Liza Deischer: I think so too
Pila Mulligan: I agree Zen
Pila Mulligan: it can be a help
Liza Deischer: because you open up yourself and say: I wanna learn
Zen Arado: our clinging greedy minds can blind us
Liza Deischer: I wanna see what I am doing and see its effects
Liza Deischer: right
Zen Arado: yes openning is so important
Liza Deischer: or what other people are doing
Zen Arado: and realizing others are us
Liza Deischer: yes, with an open mind
Zen Arado: not separated from us
Liza Deischer: well I don't feel that yet, but I guess you start questioning yourself about how you want to be treated
Zen Arado: cos you have to distance before you can do something bad to others?
Liza Deischer: but also learn that other people may need something different
Zen Arado: like in wartime
Zen Arado: yes - but tring to be open to that
Liza Deischer: yes, I think so
Liza Deischer: and somtimes that is the best choice to make
Liza Deischer: getting really close to yourself, make asking such question very hard
Zen Arado: usually simpler too
Zen Arado: 'what a tangled web we weave......
Pila Mulligan: being honest with yourself is a prerequisite to ethics
Zen Arado: yes vey true
Liza Deischer: you know there is this story of two American hopics in the war on Irak, that got a Irakeen soldier that was badly wounded and couldn't move, out of the fireline
Zen Arado: listens
Liza Deischer: at one moment they kill, another moment they rescue's an animies life puting there one lives on the line
Zen Arado: war is so strange when you think about it
Liza Deischer: my teacher made a bit of a joke saying that he only would have put some Om mani padme hums in :)
Liza Deischer: yes killing and heroism are so close to each other then
Liza Deischer: he meant that he was touched by what they did
Zen Arado: in modern warfare the 'enemy' is getting less clearly defined
druth Vlodovic: not really, just you have more chances for heroism when people are killing each other
Zen Arado: and people realize the futility of it
Liza Deischer: soon we sit behind a desk in the West steering airplanes without pilots
Qt Core: do they, Zen ?
Zen Arado: good point Druth
Liza Deischer: that is true Druth, war make things more obvious
Zen Arado: well - some anyway
Zen Arado: but think back to WW1 for example - the entire population was very much behind the war
Liza Deischer: and the war started because of a misunderstanding
SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly _/!\_)
Zen Arado: they sent pacifists a white feather for cowardice
Zen Arado: bye Sharon
Liza Deischer: says quietly bye :)
Qt Core: bye sophia
Pila Mulligan: bye Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :))
Zen Arado: 'when will it ever end?'
Liza Deischer: but that was still a war where people fight each other, man to man
Zen Arado: yes and millions died
Zen Arado: such suffering
Liza Deischer: yes, a really bad war
Liza Deischer: and what do you do when there is somebody standing in front of you with a rival and a stilleto
druth Vlodovic: meh, people like war because it simplifies things, us vs them etc
Liza Deischer: that is for the ones that stay at home
Zen Arado: yes - but not so easy to simplify wars now
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: to Bush it was
Zen Arado: he tried anyway
Liza Deischer: but he wans't fighting
Zen Arado: you have to force a false construction on the population
druth Vlodovic: give a guy a gun and he can shoot his problems, that's why I think we need clearly defined base moral codes
Zen Arado: but people not so easily fooled nowadays
Liza Deischer: hmmm, not so sure
Liza Deischer: but need to go
Zen Arado: yes I have to go too
Liza Deischer: thanks for the discussion :)
druth Vlodovic: bye zen
Qt Core: same here, bedtime approaching ;-)
Liza Deischer: see you :)
Zen Arado: can solve world moral problems some other time :)
Liza Deischer: heheh
Zen Arado: bye
Qt Core: ;-) then we'll move on hunger
Pila Mulligan: hmm, seems the session has ended Druth
Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)
druth Vlodovic: cya :)