2010.08.12 01:00 - Runaway Minds, Self and Suffering

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Calvino Rabeni and Qt Core.

Sleeping with problems:

Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm well overall maybe noticing the late hour ... and you?
Zen Arado: I'm fine ; didn't sleep well though
Zen Arado: if I have a problem I seem to keep thinking about it and it stops me sleeping
Zen Arado: should be able to let go of it but I can't seem to
Zen Arado: so I tend to just resign myself to the fact that the problem will churn away and just let it
Zen Arado: a bit like meditation I suppose
Zen Arado: Hi Arch
Zen Arado: what do you do if something is on your mind Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: thanks for asking :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Zen.........needed a place to fall asleep :)
Calvino Rabeni: I guess I like thinking about things
Zen Arado: feel sleepy myself :)
Archmage Atlantis: And hi to you too, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: but if not, I can meditate, and then usually fall asleep if I'm tired
Zen Arado: you can't switch your brain off - at least I can't
Calvino Rabeni: and I have a stash of fatigue to use as a resource
Zen Arado: my brain has a mind of its own :)
Calvino Rabeni: and kind of sink into it
Archmage Atlantis: And my brain has a mind of it's own.......why don't I get to call all the shots?
Zen Arado: my brain likes to keep mulling over things it should let go of
Archmage Atlantis: Dang, even half asleep, I still try to be humorous
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: that's valiant :)
Archmage Atlantis: No Shoulds
Archmage Atlantis: Life is a gift
Zen Arado: yes - but I want to sleep
Zen Arado: not go through the next day half asleep
Archmage Atlantis: Then I will bore you to sleep *g*.........it is a specialty of mine :)
Zen Arado: suppose there is a need for more acceptance
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Let go of analysis
Archmage Atlantis: Feel the story
Zen Arado: I know...but I can't...

Arch's Frog and Princess story :

Archmage Atlantis: once upon a time there was a prince.......
Archmage Atlantis: he sought a beautiful maiden
Zen Arado: don't we all :)
Archmage Atlantis: He had to become a frog to get her attention
Archmage Atlantis: Because she was afraid of frogs
Zen Arado: Hi Qt :)
Qt Core: Hi all
Archmage Atlantis: Hola, QT
Zen Arado: Arch is telling us a story
Archmage Atlantis: Hey, my fingers hit the Q
Archmage Atlantis: Good omen
Archmage Atlantis: No, I only told the beginning of the story
Zen Arado: about a prince becoming a frog
Archmage Atlantis: To get the attention of the princess
Zen Arado: so...did it work?
Archmage Atlantis: No
Qt Core: got the attention of some local predator ?
Zen Arado: what eats frogs?
Archmage Atlantis: She said she wanted a frog, then picked a snake........you know how that goes
Zen Arado: French people?
Archmage Atlantis: No one eats the frog
Calvino Rabeni: I saw a crate of them in chinatown once
Calvino Rabeni: in the market
Qt Core: italians too (mainly fried legs)
Archmage Atlantis: He becomes himself again in this story
Zen Arado: I seem to remember she had to kiss the frog?
Archmage Atlantis: Oh, I do like frog legs
Archmage Atlantis: They gig them in the swamps
Zen Arado: gig them?
Archmage Atlantis: Not very vegan
Archmage Atlantis: gig = a way of sticking with a sharp object
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: it was a wicked wizard turned the prince into a frog in the movie
Archmage Atlantis: That is interesting to me tho........I went to the grocery store yesterday
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, the wicked witch........
Zen Arado: and the maids kiss set him free
Archmage Atlantis: You know, she has her own book and broadway play nor
Archmage Atlantis: *now
Zen Arado: set in N.Orleans
Archmage Atlantis: Turns out the good witch was a bitch
Zen Arado: http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/filmb...disney-company
Archmage Atlantis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_(musical)
Zen Arado: amazing how we are still captivated by fairytales
Archmage Atlantis: We live as human in our stories
Archmage Atlantis: I think that may be what defines us
Archmage Atlantis: My cat, birds and fish live in this day.........but humans can imagine anyday, anywhere

Living in the Now illustration:

Zen Arado: I saw this represented lately by two lines - one horizontal, one vertical
Zen Arado: where they meet is the Now
Zen Arado: but we run backwards and forwards along the horizontal into the future and back to the past
Zen Arado: instead of going more deeply into the Now...the vertical
Zen Arado: thought it was a nice illustration
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, and that is who we are now
Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, got a cat on my leg, brb
Zen Arado: it was in this book which I am reading atm
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/Stepping-Out-S...1603135&sr=1-1
Zen Arado: it's very good I think
Archmage Atlantis: Sometimes I love the links.......sometimes I wish the person would speak
Archmage Atlantis: And, sometimes, I try to speak through links

Anatta, self and suffering:

Zen Arado: I have always thought the teaching of 'anatta' - that we have no permanently abiding self, very important
Zen Arado: probably because I came to Buddhism from philosophy throught that teaching
Zen Arado: what do the rest of you think?
Archmage Atlantis: I think I see you more clearly, Zen
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
Archmage Atlantis: QT and Cal will answer, or not, in their own time
Qt Core: that while i dislike the english way to always capitalize I i'm quite attached to my self, maybe to much, but hey, i'm not a buddist ;-)
Qt Core: always forgot the h in buddhist
Archmage Atlantis: Neither an I, QT
Zen Arado: neither am I
Archmage Atlantis: Still there are good ideas there
Zen Arado: I don't like the label anyway
Zen Arado: though I practice Buddhist techniques
Qt Core: yes, Arch, there are
Qt Core: (i wasn't labelling you Zen)
Zen Arado: I know Qt
Zen Arado: I think it was Christian missionaries first came up with the label 'Buddhist'
Archmage Atlantis: Still......a good thing to say
Zen Arado: I think it is clinging to this idea of self that causes us so much suffering though
Calvino Rabeni: I think selves are a marvelous invention for reality to be self-aware
Archmage Atlantis: The peoples who label.......not always Christian,,, mostly N world
Zen Arado: "I believe the teachings when they point to ego, to self-cherishing, to always being on the lookout for recognition, approval, comfort, and pleasure, as being so many hammers that fatally pound in the barbed nails of suffering." I just read that this morning
Archmage Atlantis: Very Sufi
Zen Arado: self awareness is a start to seeing through its emptiness though I think Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that's as far as it goes
Archmage Atlantis: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Dropping the droppable ideas of "self" but not the true self
Zen Arado: why is taking me so long to learn put this into practice though?
Archmage Atlantis: Here comes the sun......song on Pandoraa
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know - do buddhists really put so much attention on suffering, or is that just a beginning stage?
Zen Arado: I see the suffering it causes too
Archmage Atlantis: Because, Zen, you keep measuring it
Zen Arado: I would say the main teaching of Buddhism is relieving suffering
Calvino Rabeni: If buddhism defines life as suffering, that's not necessarily liberating, if it's a biased label for experiene
Zen Arado: not all life as suffering
Calvino Rabeni: If that is really true, then Buddhism would seem to be stuck on a low level of consciousness
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure that's the case however
Zen Arado: but suffering is present because of ignorance
Archmage Atlantis: And I would say Sidhartha understood there would be suffering.....and saw a way through it.....
Calvino Rabeni: or ignorance can lead to unnecessary suffering, sure
Calvino Rabeni: maybe it's worth thinking about sorting out the stupid suffering from the unavoidable suffering, or making some distinctions
Zen Arado: is there anything more important than the elimination of suffering?
Calvino Rabeni: living
Archmage Atlantis: to me, yes, Zen
Calvino Rabeni: elimination of suffering seems like a low priority
Zen Arado: depends how much you sufffer maybe
Calvino Rabeni: if people are dominated by suffering, it is more important, yes
Archmage Atlantis: But when one suffers, there is nothing more important
Calvino Rabeni: if they don't suffer much, they have attention for other things
Calvino Rabeni: if they're less ignorant, they probably suffer a lot less
Zen Arado: for goodness and caring for others
Archmage Atlantis: Not a good word, ignorant
Zen Arado: yes - we cause most of ur own suffering
Calvino Rabeni: suppose their experience is 90% suffering - it would be a priority
Calvino Rabeni: what if it's the other way around - 10%?
Calvino Rabeni: Then not so important
Archmage Atlantis: What if it cannot be quantified by mathematics?
Calvino Rabeni: And I'd caution people not to feel so responsible for their suffering - not to blame it all on "self"
Zen Arado: not sure of it is valid to categorise suffering in percentages :)
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, zen, it's throroughly mixed and unquantifiable, since it is a qualitiative thing - I was just making a point about its salience relative to other aspects of experience
Zen Arado: I find my own suffering is mostly self caused by how I react to things
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that's just a "hopeful story" of some kind
Zen Arado: going to crash I think
Qt Core: time to go, bye all
Calvino Rabeni: To feel in control ?
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Calvino Rabeni: I feel it's sometimes true, sometimes not
Calvino Rabeni: Bye QT
Calvino Rabeni: it's a bit overly psychological and overly individualistic
Calvino Rabeni: to claim responsibility for all one's suffering
Archmage Atlantis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB67H...s&feature=fvst
Zen Arado: we can't do much about external things anyway Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Where does it start?
Zen Arado: we can only control our own reactions
Calvino Rabeni: And the idea of disconnecting the inside from the outside, if that is being suggested, seems questionable
Zen Arado: we can't change the world
Calvino Rabeni: nor can we change our internal reactions much
Calvino Rabeni: except perhaps through practice
Archmage Atlantis: Disagree Zen. in part
Zen Arado: if we see our self-centred ignorance - it can be dropped sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes, true
Calvino Rabeni: Doesn't it need to be replaced with something?
Calvino Rabeni: world-centered knowledge?
Archmage Atlantis: I hear the question Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hi did you crash, Zen?
Zen Arado: yep - it always happens in this session for some reason
Zen Arado: I can see it coming too - get all sorts of strange lights and shapes before it
Archmage Atlantis: Dang, Zen......we solved all existence while you were gone
Zen Arado: oh - I missed it then :(
Zen Arado: I always do :)
Archmage Atlantis: Me too
Zen Arado: it's all appearances I hear lately :)
Zen Arado: not existence

Ways of dealing with suffering:

Calvino Rabeni: There's also the dynamic that - what one puts attention on, grows
Calvino Rabeni: that would seem to include suffering
Archmage Atlantis: Getting old does have some value,,,, just not in appearance
Zen Arado: good point Cal
Calvino Rabeni: because giving it attention amounts to "practicing" it
Calvino Rabeni: I think that would lead to getting better at it
Zen Arado: we can't epress things either
Calvino Rabeni: as a matter of unintended training
Zen Arado: repress*
Zen Arado: I am trying to remain 'open' to something in my life atm but it causes me suffering
Calvino Rabeni: I suspect, the "mind" doesn't need to be constantly controlled
Calvino Rabeni: and that to do so might lead to some forms of suffering
Zen Arado: it;s more a kind of openness and allowing though?
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: if that were not true, then there wouldn't be so much emphasis on relaxation, dropping, non-doing
Archmage Atlantis: Then protect yourself Zen......do not hurt others,,,,still protect yourself
Calvino Rabeni: as suggestions for a kind of meditation
Zen Arado: it goes on and on and on I find
Zen Arado: you might be right Cal
Zen Arado: no need to be a masochist either
Zen Arado: anyway I better go
Zen Arado: thanks for insights
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for hosting, Zen - good to talk to you :)
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I go also
Zen Arado: you too Cal, Arch :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
Zen Arado: bye