2010.08.11 01:00 - Many ways to freedom from identification

The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

Bolonath Crystal: namaste pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi Bolonath!
Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
Pema Pera: fine! Just adjusting to the new time zone, after returning to Japan again yesterday
Pema Pera: which means that I can come to the 1 am sessions once more :)
Bolonath Crystal: :)
Bolonath Crystal: i love jet lag *g*
Pema Pera: oh, I do too, really!
Pema Pera: it's an interesting experiments in states of consciousness
Pema Pera: a bit akin to dreaming
Bolonath Crystal: lol, yes
Bolonath Crystal: i never looked at it that way
Pema Pera: it depends also a great deal on how tight your schedule is
Pema Pera: if you have a business meeting right away the next day, it may not be so much fun . . .
Bolonath Crystal: right
Pema Pera: even so, perhaps your intuition in making decisions would work differently, for better or worse?
Bolonath Crystal: maybe better. too much thinking isn't good for intuition
Pema Pera: :-)
Bolonath Crystal: when i came to thailand i didn't really sleep the first three nights
Pema Pera: only siestas during the day?
Bolonath Crystal: not even this...
Pema Pera: wow, that must have been hard!
Bolonath Crystal: i was walking around, sitting in nighttrains...
Pema Pera: sat, chit, but not much ananda?
Bolonath Crystal: then, on the fourth day, i arrved in my guesthouse very early in the morning, wked up everybody and went to sleep :D
Bolonath Crystal: oh, it was quite a lot ananda :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: I'm still feeling ananda/joy from last week's retreat in Nova Scotia :)
Bolonath Crystal: :)
Bolonath Crystal: harmonizing energies can lift up each other quite a bit :)
Pema Pera: one of the nice surprises was to see how much overlap there was between the PaB approach/community and that of the forester and his apprentices
Pema Pera: on many counts, such as an emphasis on offering and gratitude, on being aimless to some extent rather than goal driven, on letting oneself by seen, etc.
Bolonath Crystal: very "yogic" :)
Pema Pera: indeed!
Bolonath Crystal: when i started to explore religions, i had in my mind that truth should be best found in the overlap of all religions
Bolonath Crystal: gratitude, aimlessness and so on are some of these overlaps
Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
Pema Pera: all forms of openness, in one way or another
--BELL--
Pema Pera: (I like "openness" better than "emptiness" as a term)
Bolonath Crystal: ah yes, emptiness is an awful translation of shunyata
Bolonath Crystal: it reminds of "nothing"
Qt Core: Hi all
Pema Pera: (if the pond gets misty, that indicates the 90 sec pause)
Pema Pera: (also mentioned in green letters in the "local chat" window)
Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
Bolonath Crystal: oops, sorry. my awareness is not the best today
Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: while talking with the forester, we concluded that extremes meet, also in this case: the forester's sustainable ecology focusing on the myriad details of the concrete biology of the forest, and PaB talking about Being and how to express what IS in daily life . . . .
Pema Pera: and in both cases letting oneself be seen emerged as a key approach
Pema Pera: for him when walking amidst the animals and plants of the forest, for us the "Being seeing" part of PaB
Pema Pera: releasing the constriction of the self/ego
Bolonath Crystal: it is amazing how opposite paths meet in the end if followed consequently
Pema Pera: yes, that last part is key!
Bolonath Crystal: yes
Bolonath Crystal: i call it self-identification
Bolonath Crystal: many people see ego as as enemy. but it is good to have one, only one shouldn't identify with it
Pema Pera: ah yes, I fully agree
Bolonath Crystal: "have" one
Bolonath Crystal: nor "be" one
Bolonath Crystal: not*
Pema Pera: "freedom from identification" is very important, not getting rid of or denying/ignoring identification
Pema Pera: wearing it casually
Bolonath Crystal: yes, denying is in my eyes the completely wrong approach
Pema Pera: yet avoiding is central to most forms of spiritual pursuits
Pema Pera: in the sense of renunciation
Pema Pera: and while not wrong, it is not the most efficient approach
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
Bolonath Crystal: namaste steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: greetings
Pema Pera: You're either up very late or very early -- or you're not home!
Qt Core: hi steve
Bolonath Crystal: well, avoiding and denying are two different things
stevenaia Michinaga: up early, too early
Pema Pera: wow, long day ahead?
stevenaia Michinaga: I take naps, night be the heat here
Pema Pera: ah yes, makes sense!
stevenaia Michinaga: you back in Japan
Pema Pera: yup, since yesterday
stevenaia Michinaga: is there a topic?
Bolonath Crystal: we talked about letting go of ego
Bolonath Crystal: and different ways to that
Pema Pera: (I just IMed the last several sentences to Steve)
Bolonath Crystal: thx
Pema Pera: renunciation is an interesting move -- can be very inspiring, can also be too restrictive
stevenaia Michinaga: thx Pema
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: inside and outside are not seperated. so we can go inner or outer paths. if one takes the inner path renunciation of outer things is helpful
Pema Pera: and there are many layers/ways: one can renounce a particular kind of action, like drinking alcohol, say; or one can try to renounce craving for it, or habitual drinking, or something along those lines
Pema Pera: like identification, renunciation can be worn in different ways
Bolonath Crystal: those ways have all one in common: they are about renouncing certain states of conciousness
Bolonath Crystal: drinking, craving for wordly desires, whatever "sins" there are, all makes it more difficult to let go of ego
Pema Pera: perhaps . . . it may depend on one's path
Bolonath Crystal: different cultures have different tendencies, so they need different religions to reach the same goal
Pema Pera: the craving, yes, that is not helpful, but the actions themselves can be done in non-craving ways, in principle at least
Bolonath Crystal nods
Bolonath Crystal: that may be the point where an institutionalized religion is not longer this important to that person
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: one area of renunciation I'm exploring recently is letting go of a belief/habit of linear time, past-present-future time . . . .
Pema Pera: to see what can take its place once you drop all that
Bolonath Crystal: that's a tricky thing, time
Pema Pera: sure is!
Bolonath Crystal: the past is made of present thoughts that are projected backwards in time
Pema Pera: yes, and the present of true presence is very unlike the tiny present that we consider to be sandwiched between gigantic past and future
Bolonath Crystal: to me it is more like presence is emanating future and past
Bolonath Crystal: everything exists only in presence. even the past and the future
Pema Pera: and "existence" is a tricky term here -- since we habitually consider existence to be created . . .
Bolonath Crystal: existence = samsara (in this case)
Bolonath Crystal: projections
Pema Pera: a presence-centered view may deal better with "appearing" or "arising" than "creating" given that the latter implies temporal continuity if not solidity
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: i have a big problem with time. i find it very hard to let go of the thought that cause always happens before effect
Pema Pera: btw, we've been exploring these themes quite deeply during the Friday 6 am sessions, for a number of weeks now; see http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions
Pema Pera: and yes, causality is hard to renounce :-)
Pema Pera: or even to know in what direction to look
Pema Pera: quite an exercise in openness, or letting go, or letting oneself be seen . . .
Bolonath Crystal: i like riddles :)
Pema Pera: this may be a riddle where solving is impossible :-)
Bolonath Crystal: hehe, even better
Bolonath Crystal: riddles help us to question our understandings
Bolonath Crystal: if it is solved, it won't work anymore
Pema Pera: :>)
Pema Pera: will have to leave, dinner coming up soon
Pema Pera: thanks for a great discussion, Bolo!
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema, enjoy
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, pema. have a good day
Pema Pera: and good seeing you all, hope you get some rest later, Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Pema Pera: bye Qt!
Qt Core: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting conversation, been reading and trying to relate to it, ego rennciation of time, samsera
stevenaia Michinaga: and linear time
stevenaia Michinaga: as a riddle
Bolonath Crystal: time is something we use to take as given without thinking too much about it
Bolonath Crystal: but it is a mystery
stevenaia Michinaga: a lovely weaving of threads
stevenaia Michinaga: it's one things to "see time" as this construct of past present and Futre , giving them weight as pema put it, then then to "drop that"
stevenaia Michinaga: Hello beka
stevenaia Michinaga: Becka
Bolonath Crystal: hello becka :)
Becka Finesmith: Hello everyone
Becka Finesmith: Sory - still downloading
Qt Core: hi becka
stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose some of the best questions re the ones where you have no clue what the answer is
Becka Finesmith: Hi QT.
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal agrees :)
Becka Finesmith: Can I ask, I received an email about he dream circle this morning but it was dated the 1st August. I'd like to si in on one. Could oyou tell me when the next oe is?
Becka Finesmith: please excuse my typing. My machine seems tobe running slowly
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I saw that, I know thre is a section in the Wiki where there may be more information
stevenaia Michinaga: let me look
Becka Finesmith: I did look but there are n dates I don't thik
stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Dream_Circle
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps IM'g Gaya
Qt Core: it is today, 7am
Becka Finesmith: OK. I'll do that.
Qt Core: just got a notice
Becka Finesmith: Oh. OK. Great.
Bolonath Crystal: sorry, my friends, rl is calling
Becka Finesmith: Mine said August 1st
stevenaia Michinaga: it is the 11th, perhaps a slip of the keyboard
Qt Core: bye Bolonath
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, have a nice day
Becka Finesmith: Bye Bolonath
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bol
Qt Core: 1st meeting, second (and last) on the 25th
Qt Core: last for august
Becka Finesmith: I think I have to leave to. Just wante to check Dream circle times
Becka Finesmith: Thanks Qt for the info.
Qt Core: yw
stevenaia Michinaga: I haven't attended any of those sesson
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Becka
Becka Finesmith: They sound interesting
Becka Finesmith: Bye everyone...
stevenaia Michinaga: I beleve there is another dream session on Tuesdaqys at 1:00
stevenaia Michinaga: PM
Qt Core: don't know, the GAya's notice mentioned only today and the 25th, both at 7am
Qt Core: time to go
Qt Core: Bye steve
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, time for beakfast
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Qt
Qt Core: (making lunch for me)
Qt Core: Ciao!