2010.08.06 13:00 - philosophy and politics

The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, welcome back
MarkMonet Thor: TY
MarkMonet Thor: Still too early, it seems.
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s realy quiet today
Yakuzza Lethecus: no you aren´t but there was an event at 6am slt
Yakuzza Lethecus: then the guardianstession at 7am
Yakuzza Lethecus: and there is and was an RL reatreat in nova scotia
MarkMonet Thor: I see
Yakuzza Lethecus: so a few regular participants aren´t even possible to come, and since so much happens on fridays and it´s still summertime it´s a bit more silent
Yakuzza Lethecus: so what´s ur main philosophical interest
Yakuzza Lethecus: but let me first ask you if you read that everything here is logged ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: if you don´t want ur name to appear i can delete ur name out of the logfiles
MarkMonet Thor: I come from a background in analytic philsophy, and the phisophy of science. If anything, I iam a logical positivist.
Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, so ur propably part of the categorie i simply like to listen too :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i basicly like to find ppl whom are discussing topics i am interested in SL, but for the learning i use itunesU, books and other sources
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am verymuch interested in phenomenologie but also philosophy of science
Yakuzza Lethecus: still my rl background doesn´t provide anyone who even knows names such as popper,kuhn,feyerabend,lakatosh
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you even do philosophy more professionally ?
MarkMonet Thor: I once was going to major in it, but picked political science--international relations instead. But in my writing and research, I still do a lot of philosophy.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
MarkMonet Thor: I combine mathematics and social science, and that requires a lot of understanding of math, thus the analytic side
Pila Mulligan: hi Mark
MarkMonet Thor: Hello Pika
MarkMonet Thor: Pila, sorry.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: just stopping by for a moment before attending to some RL matters
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am kinda sad that i never developed a better understanding for mathematics, i think i really suffer from that since there is so much stochastic´s involved in the social sciences
MarkMonet Thor: Nice to meet you then.
Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s ur main interest in the field right now ?
Pila Mulligan: nice top meet you also, Mark -- and I am quite lacking in math skills also Yak
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: to meet*
MarkMonet Thor: In philsophy? Hard to say since I work across the field. Best to say analytic philosophy.
MarkMonet Thor: Nature of truth--empirical, analytic, math, ethics, art.
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, but you can´t share a specific project as an example for that ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean it´s fine
MarkMonet Thor: I am getting two sets of IMs. A little confusing, and so may miss the chat. If I do, try again.
Pila Mulligan: well, democide is an interesting new term for me
Pila Mulligan: as an example of a project, Mark
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s because of the logging around here
MarkMonet Thor: Ahh, you and many othrs
MarkMonet Thor: others*
Yakuzza Lethecus: you didn´t wrote me that you agree with the logging
Yakuzza Lethecus: or if i need to delete ur name
Pila Mulligan: did you see Mark's profiule yet Yak?
MarkMonet Thor: So far no problem
Pila Mulligan: " a park in remembrance of all those murdered by governments in genocide, democide, or mass murder in the last century, 262,000,000 of them in total."
Pila Mulligan: and wiki has an article on the subject too
MarkMonet Thor: Smiles. That isfamiliar. Please visit
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
Pila Mulligan: wiki: "Democide can also include deaths arising from "intentionally or knowingly reckless and depraved disregard for life"; this brings into account many deaths arising through various neglects and abuses, such as forced mass starvation."
Pila Mulligan: or the War on Drugs in the US
MarkMonet Thor: Yes.
Pila Mulligan: the militarization of society in the name of crime prevention
Pila Mulligan: not an encouraging phase of civilization
MarkMonet Thor: If it leads to deaths.
Pila Mulligan: the intentionally or knowingly reckless part has
Pila Mulligan: swat raids etc
MarkMonet Thor: All that bears investigation, wether deaths are due to intentional or unenintentional deaths. As with murder in law.
Pila Mulligan: yes, they should be investigated -- and investigated objectively by parties unrelated to the perpetrators
Pila Mulligan: not by their uspervisors
MarkMonet Thor: Yes. As in a court of law, by the INternational Criminal Court.
Pila Mulligan: my opinion is that about 10% of the people involved are seriusly psycho
Pila Mulligan: they make trouble,m the others cover it up
Pila Mulligan: ready fire aim people
MarkMonet Thor: As with genocide
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: and then the long term entrenches it
Pila Mulligan: as with indigenous people
Pila Mulligan: in the US and elsewhere
Pila Mulligan: Leonard Peltier for example
Pila Mulligan: more than 30 years in prison for a crime he did not commit
MarkMonet Thor: Tell me more, please
Pila Mulligan: because the was an Indian leader in the 60's he was prosecuted as a scapegoat for the murder of 2 FBI agents on an Indian reservation
Pila Mulligan: murder may be a harsh term, they were kille din a gunfight they helkped start
MarkMonet Thor: Yes, I know that case
--BELL--
MarkMonet Thor: I have not done research on it, just read about it.
Pila Mulligan: but because he is an Indian he is at a serious disdvantage
MarkMonet Thor: So you believe he was innocent?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: evidence was falsified
MarkMonet Thor: By the FBI?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: faked evidence ?
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier
Pila Mulligan: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: not falsified ?
Pila Mulligan: both
Pila Mulligan: fals testimony (perjury)
Pila Mulligan: and faked hard evidence
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, we just had phil of science before that term was differently on my mind :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: nvm, proceed :)
Pila Mulligan: "Testimony from three witnesses placed Peltier, Robideau and Butler near the crime scene. Those three witnesses later recanted, alleging that the FBI, while extracting their testimony, had tied them to chairs, denied them their right to talk to their attorney, and otherwise coerced and threatened them"
Pila Mulligan: "The jury, unlike the juries in similar prosecutions against AIM leaders at the time, were not allowed to hear about other cases, in which the FBI had been rebuked for tampering with evidence and witnesses"
Pila Mulligan: these are from wiki
Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome adoro
adoro Rhapsody: hi
Pila Mulligan: "after an FOIA request, the FBI ballistics expert’s records were examined. His report stated that he had performed a ballistics test of the firing pin and concluded that the cartridge case from the scene of the crime did not come from the rifle tied to Peltier. That evidence was withheld from the jury during the tria"
Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
Pila Mulligan: "Parole Commission has since stated that it "recognizes that the prosecution has conceded the lack of any direct evidence that [Peltier] personally participated in the executions of the two FBI agents.""
Pila Mulligan: the European Parliament is among the international bodies that consider him a political prisoner
MarkMonet Thor: A good philosophical problem. Who to believe when evidence comes from two sides? Those who supported the one side are ideologically ssupportive of the Indian movement.
Pila Mulligan: not exclusively ... there have also been independent reviews
MarkMonet Thor: And the FBI is not always credible, and has lied in some cases.
Pila Mulligan: an appellate judge hearing the case later said he felt the evidence was insufficient
Pila Mulligan: but the panel of judges he was on upheld the convidstion anyway
MarkMonet Thor: So, I ask as a general problem, how to determine the truth here.
Pila Mulligan: it may be impossible
Pila Mulligan: leave it to their karma is the only hope in some cases
adoro Rhapsody: it may be not nececary
adoro Rhapsody: sure
adoro Rhapsody: its their world
adoro Rhapsody: not ours
MarkMonet Thor: Hello odoro
adoro Rhapsody: hello
Pila Mulligan: however, there are also nelightened people -- eg Gandhi, MArtin Luthe rKing -- whos elives try to bring some turth to their world
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Pila Mulligan: so their are efforts made, but they are not common
MarkMonet Thor: We can talk about this abstracty, and then have a beer.
Pila Mulligan: es
Pila Mulligan: yes
adoro Rhapsody: or a water
Yakuzza Lethecus: I have a beer :)
Pila Mulligan: or tea
Pila Mulligan: :)
MarkMonet Thor: But a man's life is at stake, and that makes it profoundly important.
Yakuzza Lethecus: Veltins :P
Pila Mulligan: and we can talk about it abstractly in the hope that eventually the 100th monkey will ear it
Pila Mulligan: yes, it is important
Pila Mulligan: hear*
Pila Mulligan: vhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect
Pila Mulligan: The hundredth monkey effect is a supposed phenomenon in which a learned behavior spreads instantaneously from one group of monkeys to all related monkeys once a critical number is reached.
MarkMonet Thor: Then, still, as philosophers, what can we say about the truth.
Pila Mulligan: so maybe there is a criticla mass of people that need to hear about Peltier
Pila Mulligan: and then he will get justice
adoro Rhapsody: truth is subjective
Pila Mulligan: late, but maybe not, he is quite old now
Pila Mulligan: but is reality subjective too?
adoro Rhapsody: of course
Pila Mulligan: perhaps
MarkMonet Thor: If subjective, should we put it to a vote?
adoro Rhapsody: all people have ther own truth
Pila Mulligan: we share the sun and moon though
Pila Mulligan: no matter how we perceive htem
adoro Rhapsody: thts right
adoro Rhapsody: but here is evening and there is morning
Pila Mulligan: yep, and os subjectivity is localized to some degree
Pila Mulligan: but form a distance certain realities seem consistent
MarkMonet Thor: If everyone has a subjective truth, and voting only then determines by numbers what subjectivity wins, There can be no truth
MarkMonet Thor: Yes?
Pila Mulligan: truth is distinguishable from reality in this onctext
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: thats the problem of wikipedia
Pila Mulligan: we can adjust rhetoric to prove truth -- nothing makes the moon have trees
Pila Mulligan: yet :)
MarkMonet Thor: Who is the "we" that will do the adjustment
Pila Mulligan: all of us
MarkMonet Thor: ?
Pila Mulligan: we all do it all the time
Pila Mulligan: we mangle words to express our truth
adoro Rhapsody: all 100 monkeys ?
Pila Mulligan: all 10,000 monkeys
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: every philosophy has some form of reality at its foundation -- even nihlism
Pila Mulligan: i*
Pila Mulligan: and since philosophy is mind play, it is safe to assume there is in fact some form of reality
MarkMonet Thor: And that which out minds create.
Pila Mulligan: yes, elaboration
Pila Mulligan: decoration too
Pila Mulligan: :)
MarkMonet Thor: I am looking at the thing in the middle of the pond. I see a hawk.
MarkMonet Thor: So you see it?
Pila Mulligan: nope
MarkMonet Thor: You are missing it. It is a hawk
Pila Mulligan: cool
MarkMonet Thor: For osure
Pila Mulligan: I hope it is happy
MarkMonet Thor: Sure*
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: any mice?
MarkMonet Thor: Come on now. Be reasonble. there is a hawk
Pila Mulligan: well, I was considering it may need somhting to eat
MarkMonet Thor: Yes, it will fly soon. Now just looking around.
MarkMonet Thor: Yes?
Pila Mulligan: ever sat in on a trial and listened to the testimony from witnesses to, say, a car accident, for exmple
Pila Mulligan: it is like the story of the blind people and the elphant
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_m...nd_an_elephant
MarkMonet Thor: Yes. Got your point, but we are not winesses. We have the hawk before us.
Pila Mulligan: you have the hawk before you, Mark
Pila Mulligan: I do not see it
MarkMonet Thor: I sure do.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i see a kraken comming out of the middle of the water
MarkMonet Thor: You are not looking very carefully. It is there. Look
Yakuzza Lethecus: it has a strange color, still could be a kraken
MarkMonet Thor: I have to go. My pleasure to meet you Cypris and hope there will be more people next time. Sheers
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s a group
Yakuzza Lethecus: but a really good one :)
MarkMonet Thor: Cheers*
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, there are usually more
Yakuzza Lethecus: to get an impression i suggest to come for theme sessions
MarkMonet Thor: Enjoy and have fun now.
Yakuzza Lethecus: the open sessions are often just a chitchat
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it can also happen that something great happens in them too
MarkMonet Thor: I don't mind chit chat. That really is what we had today, and I enjoyed it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: still have you been to thothica/philosoophy island/thephilosophyclass/roadside philosophers/plato´s academy ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb pila
MarkMonet Thor: Now will take the hawm and go. Bye
Pila Mulligan: sorry, I crashed
Pila Mulligan: thanks Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: our friend just took his hawk
Pila Mulligan: I saw :)
Pila Mulligan: sorry to have missed the ending
Yakuzza Lethecus: not much going on tonight
Pila Mulligan: yes, quiet
Yakuzza Lethecus: propably because the NS retreat just ended
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: maybe
Pila Mulligan: Stutgart next :)
Pila Mulligan: sp?
Yakuzza Lethecus: sp ?
Pila Mulligan: spelling ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: nova scotia
Pila Mulligan: not sure how to spell the name of the city
Pila Mulligan: he one in October
Yakuzza Lethecus: close to halifac
Yakuzza Lethecus: stuttgart
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes that was kinda korrect
Pila Mulligan: ah, I was close then
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually it´s closer to heidelberg :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i will go there
Pila Mulligan: frm everything I've heard meeting SL freinds n RL is quite easy -- familiar
Pila Mulligan: already familiar that is :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, malta was really great
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i am going to log out, take care pila
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Yak -- bye