2010.08.15 07:00 - Calling Being for Help

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

The session started out as a conversation between Gen and myself, soon joined by Yak and adoro and then by Agatha. We picked up more and more avatars until it was time for the guardian session. A group stayed on past the hour for anothe rhalf hour or so.

Adams Rubble: Oh my!!!!
Adams Rubble: Hello Genesis :)))
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adams!
Adams Rubble: Nice to see you :)
genesis Zhangsun: Nice to see you too!
Adams Rubble: How are things?
genesis Zhangsun: Good, very busy as usual but I am on vacation for a couple of weeks in California
Adams Rubble: :)
genesis Zhangsun: how are you doing?
Adams Rubble: I hope you have acclimated to your new location and job
Adams Rubble: I am well, thank you :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Agatha and Yak :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Agatha and Yaku

I started the conversation off with a recent experience of mine

Adams Rubble: I have a new exploraation suggested by the author of the "Clouds of Knowing"
Adams Rubble: It began with his talking about prayer (a sensitive subject in PaB-hehe)
Adams Rubble: he talked about being in a burning building
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Yaku, gen
Adams Rubble: I am just beginning talking about an inspiration from the medieval English "Clouds of Unknowing"
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Agatha Macbeth: Not familiar with it I'm afraid
Adams Rubble: If you were in a burning building you would not give a long speech on how the fire started, how dangerous it was and how you wish you were somewhere else or that the fire would just stop
Adams Rubble: you would yell :help" or "fire", the latter usually getting good results
Adams Rubble: the author suggested the same if we approach God or Being
Agatha Macbeth: :p
Adams Rubble: that a one syllable word would do much better
Agatha Macbeth: I would probably yel 'SHIT!'
Adams Rubble: he suggested just "God" or "Love"
Agatha Macbeth: yell
Adams Rubble: :) Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Adams Rubble: not sure that would get results :)
Adams Rubble: anyway I tried the latter
Adams Rubble: especially at times when I feel troubled or agitaed
Adams Rubble: I am finding a great peacefulness when I do that
Adams Rubble: can almost feel the waters calm
Agatha Macbeth: Well that's good to hear :)

Are prayer and mantra related?

Adams Rubble: I wonder if it might be similar to a mantra in a way
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Agatha Macbeth: I guess many things can function on that level
Adams Rubble: It changes the view of the whole world
Adams Rubble: well, that's how I am (hehe)
Adams Rubble: How are you Agatha?
Agatha Macbeth: We each go at these things from a diffent perspective I think
Agatha Macbeth: I'm fine thanks :)
Adams Rubble: We all need to find what works for us
Agatha Macbeth: True yes
Agatha Macbeth: What many people forget is that works for them doesn't necessarily work for others
Agatha Macbeth: Everyone is different
Adams Rubble: different and the same :)
Adams Rubble: It is a great mystery
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed:)

Gen has a simlar experience with a mantra

genesis Zhangsun: I could make the connection between the one word technique and mantra
genesis Zhangsun: similar to saying the one word, mantra for me at least, brings into focus more authentically on what is happening
genesis Zhangsun: I can feel my energy which is usually spread thinly over a million different thoughts and perceptions return to me
genesis Zhangsun: return to a center
Adams Rubble: :)
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: For myself it is intersting to think of it as a way of calling for help, and maybe more importantly that help comes so quickly..harnassing the power of Being
Adams Rubble: Hello adoro :)
adoro Rhapsody: hi all
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ado
genesis Zhangsun: hi adoro
Agatha Macbeth: Afternoon Adoro :)
Agatha Macbeth: It's certainly an ineresting idea Adams
genesis Zhangsun: Adams when you call for help, do you feel it is to sense of Being outside of you or inside of you? I realize there really is no distinction but perhaps interesting to note which one
adoro Rhapsody: hi there
Adams Rubble: Interesting question Gen :)
Adams Rubble: I think I directed it outside; I did not think about it
Adams Rubble: maybe that will become clearer
genesis Zhangsun: mantra is often used I believe with the intention of invoking a deity
Agatha Macbeth: Was that just me, or the whole sim that crashed?
Adams Rubble: Most traditions have room for the belief that the deity is within us too; that we are the deity
Adams Rubble: wb Agatha. just you
Agatha Macbeth: Damn
Adams Rubble: Hello Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Sunday again...
genesis Zhangsun: hi bruce
adoro Rhapsody: hi bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Brucie
Adams Rubble: Often the browser tells one the im has crashed
Adams Rubble: Hello Dash :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone.
Agatha Macbeth waves to Dash
Adams Rubble: welcome Dash. Have you been here before?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes he has Adams :)
Adams Rubble: I see a friend of yakuzza
Dash Earthboy: yes
Adams Rubble: Nice to meet you Dash
Dash Earthboy: you too Adams
Adams Rubble: I will try to make a notecard to bring you up to date
Dash Earthboy: 'sup?
genesis Zhangsun: in a way perhaps the mantra is that recognition that there is no distinction between the inner and outer, subject and object, that we may be the experiencer of an "experience" which seems outside of us but when invoking a deity or being we reminded that there is no separation between us and the experience, hence no one to suffer the experience
genesis Zhangsun: *are reminded
genesis Zhangsun: and hence nothing to do, no "fixing needed"
Adams Rubble thinking
Agatha Macbeth hears the wheels turning....:)
Adams Rubble giggles
Dash Earthboy: smells the rubber burning
Agatha Macbeth: Whoa

Rocket Science..I mean it as an idiom or metaphor for complicated but it turns out to change the direcction of the discussion

Adams Rubble: not rocket science, or is it?
genesis Zhangsun: brb
Agatha Macbeth: Rocket science is all about mass ratios :p
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: back
Adams Rubble: It is all much less complicated than our little brains usually try to make it :)
Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps more to do with feeling than thinking?
Dash Earthboy: i like the way rocket science was described in the movie "October Sky"
Agatha Macbeth: ??
Bruce Mowbray: say more, please, Dash.
Agatha Macbeth: I need to ask Gaya about that one ;-)
Dash Earthboy: mostly numbers and physics
Dash Earthboy: i don't see any discussion of deities being a matter of numbers except in how people assign the numbers to special meanings
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, numerology?
Dash Earthboy: like the numbers 12 in Jewish religion
Agatha Macbeth: Or 666 [grin]
Dash Earthboy: numerology is a nice practice
adoro Rhapsody: or 69
Dash Earthboy: yes
Adams Rubble: Of course I was using rocket science as an idiom for complicated
Agatha Macbeth: Pythagoras was really into it
Dash Earthboy: yes Pythagoras really was
genesis Zhangsun: so Adams you are moving towards simplicity?
Dash Earthboy: i lean more to Socrates
Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
Adams Rubble: I always have been rather simple (giggles)
Agatha Macbeth: Aw
genesis Zhangsun: hehe I would beg to difer ;)
adoro Rhapsody: simple minded is root of all eveil
adoro Rhapsody: evil
Adams Rubble: don't let aappearances fool you. hehe
adoro Rhapsody: we r all appearences here
Agatha Macbeth: I always think of simplicity as the essence of perfection
adoro Rhapsody: my grandmother did so too
Agatha Macbeth smiles
genesis Zhangsun: grandmothers are usually right
Adams Rubble sings "Tis a gift to be simple, Tis a gift to be free...
adoro Rhapsody: it was the essence of the real
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Dash Earthboy: :)
adoro Rhapsody: sure i respect grandmothers
adoro Rhapsody: my wife is one
Agatha Macbeth: I miss mine

genesis Zhangsun: mine is crazy which makes her totally incoherent 98% of the time and 2% absolute genius
Adams Rubble: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds about the right ratio Gen :)
adoro Rhapsody: still crazy after all those years
Adams Rubble: :)
adoro Rhapsody: thats the new reality
genesis Zhangsun: :)
adoro Rhapsody: we have to cope with that
adoro Rhapsody: and we can
adoro Rhapsody: when we share our experiences
adoro Rhapsody: all of us have parents
adoro Rhapsody: some of us have kids
adoro Rhapsody: amen
Adams Rubble: Children tend to forget their parents are just as changeable as they are
Adams Rubble: it can be a shock
adoro Rhapsody: sure
genesis Zhangsun: yes until they have kids themselves
adoro Rhapsody: they are humans too
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: lately the biggest shock for me is how much I have become my parents
adoro Rhapsody: me too
Adams Rubble: :)
Dash Earthboy: imitation is the sinceerest form of flattery
adoro Rhapsody: the lates thing i wanted was to be like my father
Agatha Macbeth: I often seem to be cecoming my mother ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: becoming
Adams Rubble: Hello Blissful
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bliss
genesis Zhangsun: hi Blissful
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bliss
Bruce Mowbray: Same here, adoro -- and I think I've done an excellent job of NOT being like him.
adoro Rhapsody: but now i am more like him than i ever would think
Dash Earthboy: hi blissful
Blissful Badger: Hello
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Blissful.
genesis Zhangsun: yes except adoro you can see it when he could not!
adoro Rhapsody: but we are both of our father and mother
Adams Rubble: Welcome Blissful. Have you been here before?
genesis Zhangsun: this is the thing that is most frustrating, is seeing what you are doing!
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: the mirror effect
Blissful Badger: are you talking about your parents?
adoro Rhapsody: or inner reflexion
Blissful Badger: yes adams. thanks for asking
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Bliss
genesis Zhangsun: for example last night I was complaining to my husband about my parents behavior and after listening he said, sounds like you and laughed!
genesis Zhangsun: I had to laugh too because I could see his point
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray: In this week's Time Magic exercise, we allow ourselves to "be seen" -- (come out of hiding, as it were) and let ourselves be seen by things outside us.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Blissful Badger: what was the result Bruce?
adoro Rhapsody: comimg out of the box
Bruce Mowbray: One thing that might surprise us (as genesis has just pointed out) is that we are seen differently than we see ourselves.
Agatha Macbeth: true
Adams Rubble: yes
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Bruce Mowbray: There's a real SHIFT - for me, anyway.
Blissful Badger: I don't know whether that is good or bad
Bruce Mowbray: I can feel it instantly.
Blissful Badger: feel what exactly?
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think it is either 'good' or 'bad' -- It's just a shift in the way we are conscious of ourselves.
Bruce Mowbray: I can feel the "shift" instantly.
Adams Rubble: People can take one aspect of us though and that is what they see. May not be all of us
Agatha Macbeth: Is that 'shift' int he way Liza uses the term?
Dash Earthboy: when i have recorded people, i've noticed they instantly see themselves differently than they had if not recorded before
Bruce Mowbray: working with the experiment: Let yourself be seen by a tree -- Let yourself be seen by the ear, sky, stars....
Adams Rubble: so we are like our parents in some ways, and in others we have drawn a distinction
Bruce Mowbray: Come out of hiding... There is definitely a big shift, there.
adoro Rhapsody: the hawthorn effect
Bruce Mowbray: meant to type: by the earth.
Agatha Macbeth: What's the Hawthorn effect Ade?
Blissful Badger: We become self consious- like a child that becomes aware that it is being watched.
Blissful Badger: The child behaves differently
adoro Rhapsody: attention gives more quality
Blissful Badger: Tp please others
Dash Earthboy: or aggravate them
Blissful Badger: To please
Bruce Mowbray: The Hawthorn effect, as I understand it, is that organisms behave differently when the realize they are being observed..
Blissful Badger: yes perhaps. depends if you're a girl or boy!
Agatha Macbeth: Ah I see, ty
genesis Zhangsun: yes ty
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe so Bliss :)
Bruce Mowbray: Like, go outside at night and watch lightning bugs with a flashlight (a torch) -- and their behavior will change.
Blissful Badger: that's what I was describing
Adams Rubble: Bruce's exercise seems to be more a way of looking
Agatha Macbeth: We don't have them here unforunately
Blissful Badger: how will the behaviour of lightening change Bruce?
adoro Rhapsody: workers that have been watched made more production
Adams Rubble: looking at ourselves from a different perspective
Dash Earthboy: actually the flashlight is a confusing signal to the lightning bugs
Blissful Badger: I think we become more like performers
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Dash Earthboy: not just an obersvation
Blissful Badger: oh - lightening BUGS I thought you said lightening
Dash Earthboy: fireflies
Blissful Badger: do you think bugs are self consious?
adoro Rhapsody: because they react on light its there nature
Bruce Mowbray: For me, anyway, the experiment (Time Magic group) this week is showing me a whole different think -- self-consciousness disappears.
Blissful Badger: yes
Bruce Mowbray: thing.
Dash Earthboy: self-consciousness has so far only been attributed to human beings
adoro Rhapsody: oh thats not a good thing
Blissful Badger: Fore me it would be reverse. I would become more self consious if I felt I was eing observed
adoro Rhapsody: maybe the same for self-confidence ?
Bruce Mowbray: Last week's TIME magazine wrote about primates that immediate begin to groom themselves when a mirror is present to them.
adoro Rhapsody: angel watching over u may frien
adoro Rhapsody: friend
Blissful Badger: Self confidence means you're not always looking overyour shoulder
Agatha Macbeth: i think i need to shuffle on down to the Village Hall
Adams Rubble: see you there Agatha
adoro Rhapsody: on sunday ?
genesis Zhangsun: oh right! thanks everyone for a great conversation
Agatha Macbeth: Bye to everyone not attending the Guardian Meeting
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Blissful Badger: Yes it should be an interesting discussion today
Dash Earthboy: bye aggie
Bruce Mowbray: It's not really about thinking about YOURSELF being watched -- It is BECOMING the thing that watches (outside your self) Like becoming the tree that watches.
Bruce Mowbray: by aggers.
Bruce Mowbray: bye.
genesis Zhangsun: one thing that struck me about the Hawthorne effect is how similar it is to the "engima" of quantum physics
Bruce Mowbray: It is a form of contemplation.
adoro Rhapsody: when u become an inspector ?
--BELL--
Blissful Badger: Bye all
genesis Zhangsun: bye!
adoro Rhapsody: bye
adoro Rhapsody: bliss
Dash Earthboy: bye blisss
adoro Rhapsody: thnx
Adams Rubble: Thank you all for a nice discussion :)
Dash Earthboy: hi aph
Adams Rubble: bye for now
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Bliss.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
Dash Earthboy: bye adams
Bruce Mowbray: bye adams.
Bruce Mowbray: oops, I don't see Aph. Are we hallucinating Aph, Dash?
Dash Earthboy: no she was here
Dash Earthboy: behind you
Bruce Mowbray: ok -- Thanks for the reality check, there.
Dash Earthboy: maybe she went to the Guardian deal
Bruce Mowbray: Letting ourselves "see" from a viewpoint outside of ourselves is also a reality check, of corts.
adoro Rhapsody: of course
Bruce Mowbray: OMG -- There's a Guardian Meeting -- I forgot!
Dash Earthboy: hi eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza.
adoro Rhapsody: bye
adoro Rhapsody: guardians
Dash Earthboy: leaving adoro?
adoro Rhapsody: no
adoro Rhapsody: but the guardians do
Dash Earthboy: oh
adoro Rhapsody: i thought
Bruce Mowbray: Then I shall also stay. I missed the guardian meeting last week, also.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi guys, see you soon
adoro Rhapsody: hi
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Eliza.
Dash Earthboy: i don't understand what others find mysterious about change
Bruce Mowbray: In last night's session, there was some talk about seeing meteors -- and also some talk about "being seen by meteors."
adoro Rhapsody: change is nature
Bruce Mowbray: who finds "change" to be mysterious, Dash?
adoro Rhapsody: change is life
adoro Rhapsody: change is chance
Bruce Mowbray: chaotic change is what disturbs people. . .
adoro Rhapsody: sorry ofcourse
Dash Earthboy: so why would children find their parents' ability to change so unusual?
adoro Rhapsody: controled changes
Dash Earthboy: somebody said children feel that way earlier
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps, Dash, because what is really changing is not the parents -- but the children'sperception of their parents.
adoro Rhapsody: because they had another picture of their parents
adoro Rhapsody: when they were young
Dash Earthboy: and?
Bruce Mowbray: They had been "bigger than life" and "idols" throughou8t childhood - and then when the kids grew up and came to understand more, they realized that the parents were really human - just like everyone else.
Bruce Mowbray: so what changed was the children, not the parents.
adoro Rhapsody: when kids grow older they see parents as perfect
Dash Earthboy: yes, that's something I realized a long time ago
adoro Rhapsody: as less perfrect
Bruce Mowbray: It can be a severe problem, though.
Dash Earthboy: so I didn't understand why others would say the children are surprised to see their parents are as changeable as they are
Bruce Mowbray: for example, with child abuse --
adoro Rhapsody: ok dash and bruce
Bruce Mowbray: the child HAS to "love" and depend upon a parent who is not acting in the child's welfare.
Bruce Mowbray: so the child splits.
adoro Rhapsody: there we have in unbalance between love and power
Bruce Mowbray: yes, adoro.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am also sneaking over to the guardina session
Bruce Mowbray: but the child is not yet mature enough to understand what's going on.
Dash Earthboy: bye yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: bruce have you ever been there ?
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Bruce Mowbray: ok Yaku. Give hugs to the guardians for me.
adoro Rhapsody: yak
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I came to one session three weeks ago.
adoro Rhapsody: child misuse and elderly misuse or disabel misuse
adoro Rhapsody: are all unbalance between lust and power
adoro Rhapsody: and innocence
Bruce Mowbray: The abused child "knows" what is happening but cannot yet "acknowledge" the fact that he is being abused -- by grownups upon whom he depends for his survival.
adoro Rhapsody: patients cannot either
Bruce Mowbray: so his psyche splits -- to accommodate the opposites.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: agreed, adoro.
adoro Rhapsody: oh how terrible
Dash Earthboy: so what you're saying Bruce is that the statement "children are surprised to find" was not about the fact that everyone is changeable but rather that they become aware that people they didn't think could change are changing?
Bruce Mowbray: It is quite similar with abused patients.
adoro Rhapsody: misuse of trest
Dash Earthboy: and adoro you're saying that people we should be able to love and trust can hurt us?
adoro Rhapsody: trust
adoro Rhapsody: sure
adoro Rhapsody: dash
adoro Rhapsody: u hit the nail
Bruce Mowbray: well. . . yes, Dash, partly that -- but more the idea that the children themselves are changing - their ability to see what's happening is changing.
Dash Earthboy: yes, well i knew that about abuse adoro
Dash Earthboy: so the point bruce is somebody's abillity to understand that change effects everybody?
Bruce Mowbray: When adbuse it done to children, the wounds are very deep indeed.... and can last for life.
Dash Earthboy: abuse of parents often does last a lifetime
Bruce Mowbray: abuse doen BY parents upon their children, yes.
adoro Rhapsody: and abuse within personell ?
Dash Earthboy: but I just wanted to make sure I understood what the points were that we were discussing
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Dash Earthboy: change and abuse are two different subjects to me
Bruce Mowbray: what do mean, adoro "personell"?
adoro Rhapsody: chief - worker
Bruce Mowbray: I thought we were talking abou8t "change of perception" --
adoro Rhapsody: director =secretary
Bruce Mowbray: in this case, change of the children's perception of their parents.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: sorry for going out of scope
adoro Rhapsody: its my falling stone
Bruce Mowbray: adoro -- you mean abuse by an employer or a work supervisor?
adoro Rhapsody: yes
Bruce Mowbray: It could be very similar.
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Bruce Mowbray: because the worker is "trapped" in a position of vulnerability.
Bruce Mowbray: and the consequences of opposing that supervisor could be traumatic.
adoro Rhapsody: ok so its more than we think
adoro Rhapsody: in essence the same
adoro Rhapsody: age doenot matter
Bruce Mowbray: well, ANY situation in which a trapped, vulnerable person is abused by a person with great power. . .
adoro Rhapsody: even war
Bruce Mowbray: I think it can be the same at any age, but children seem to have longer-lasting wounds from it.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: yes, the emotional wounds of war -- the same: being trapped in a vulnerable situation with no control over the outcome.
Dash Earthboy: isn't "no control over the outcome" a matter of perception?
adoro Rhapsody: that could be dash !
Bruce Mowbray: One of the reasons that so many soldiers return home with PTSD is that they have felt helpless to affect their situation -- It is not just "shell-shock" -- It is being helpless.... and it might even have been their commanding officer who did the abuse on them -- not the "enemy"
adoro Rhapsody: when u feel self confident u dont wanna control everything
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I am sure that "no control" is a matter of perception.
Dash Earthboy: thanks
Dash Earthboy: i like to be able to understand what is being said
Bruce Mowbray: I think it's a matter of finding balance between rigidity on end and chaos on the other.
adoro Rhapsody: but kids didnt know the could not trust ther paants in this
Bruce Mowbray: it is sometimes difficult for children (and also for 'trapped' soldiers) to find that balance.
Dash Earthboy: ying yang stuff
adoro Rhapsody: TAO
Bruce Mowbray: well, ideally, the Tao shows us that everything seeks balance.
Bruce Mowbray: and changes toward achieving that balance.
Dash Earthboy: and that everything contains opposites
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: But one could argue, I think, that what happens in combat situations is an attempt to upset balance --
Bruce Mowbray: to force rigidity -- and to bring about chaos.
Dash Earthboy: not necessarily chaos
adoro Rhapsody: and that is unbalance
Bruce Mowbray: to create chaos for the enemy (like using roadsie bombs).
Dash Earthboy: many fights are about order and control
adoro Rhapsody: wise words dash
Bruce Mowbray: yes, but perhaps an example would be helpful here, Dash.
--BELL--
adoro Rhapsody: and nature teaches us they always follow each other up
Dash Earthboy: having studied military strategy, I don't see use of roadside bombs as a tool for creating chaos
Dash Earthboy: i think confusion should not be confused with chaos
Dash Earthboy: chaos is a state of being
adoro Rhapsody: said cofucius ?
Bruce Mowbray: You don't think that alcaida uses IED's to create chaos -- or uses bombs in public markets to create chaos - and and through the chaos, terror?
adoro Rhapsody: confucius ?
Dash Earthboy: confusion is a state of our reasoning ability
adoro Rhapsody: i have to go to eat
adoro Rhapsody: bye brothers
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then, "traumatic confusion"
Dash Earthboy: bye adoro
adoro Rhapsody: it was great
Bruce Mowbray: I should be going tothe guardians meeeting/
Bruce Mowbray: You guys be well and have a good day.