2010.08.05 01:00 - Travelling, SL/RL Personas, Group Dynamics

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni, Qt Core, Stevenia Michinaga and Yakuzza Lethecus

Vacations and  travelling:

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
Zen Arado: you're just a white cloud this morning :)
Zen Arado: ah see you now
Yakuzza Lethecus: good
Zen Arado: how are you?
Yakuzza Lethecus: a few ppl claimed that i wasn´t rezzing to them
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am pretty fine :)
Zen Arado: not working this week?
Yakuzza Lethecus: on the edge of too much coffee
Yakuzza Lethecus: no 2nd week of vacation
Yakuzza Lethecus: our company closed over a local festival and for a week longer
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s the case every year
Zen Arado: I see
Zen Arado: and you didn't go away anywhere?
Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, no
Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought about that, but i was only to cologne the first weekend
Yakuzza Lethecus: and that i could have done without vacation
Zen Arado: it seems everyone goes away these days
Yakuzza Lethecus: claims the guy who lived in australia for years :)
Zen Arado: that was a long time ago though :)
Zen Arado: I went there when I was 18
Zen Arado: came back in '69
Yakuzza Lethecus: spirit of 69 :)
Zen Arado: so over 30 years ago
Zen Arado: 40 years ago even
Zen Arado: I used to work with lots of Germans in Australia
Zen Arado: especially in chemical plants
Yakuzza Lethecus: chemical plants ?
Zen Arado: places that manufacture chemicals
Zen Arado: it was unhealthy job
Zen Arado: you had to load bags of chemicals into large reactors and breathe lots of dust and fumes
Zen Arado: many Germans emigrated to Australia in those days
Yakuzza Lethecus: by that time it was even a real choice
Yakuzza Lethecus: you couldn´t communicate with ur home that well
Yakuzza Lethecus: today it nearly doesn´t matter where you live
Zen Arado: that's true
Yakuzza Lethecus: as we see with ur usual globetrotter pempa :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: pema
Zen Arado: we used to write air mail letters
Zen Arado: and not very often
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: travel was so expensive too
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, i still don´t consider it as cheap :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i don´t do it because i couldn´t efford to do it habitually
Zen Arado: it's very cheap nowadays relatively
Zen Arado: I found a good quote in a book I am reading " The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes" Proust
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that is a nice qote
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s a good quote for a contact of mine in skype :)
Qt Core: Hi all
Zen Arado: when you go to live in a new country everything seems so exciting and fresh
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt
Zen Arado: but after a while it is the same as the last place
Zen Arado: when I went to Australia I thought it would be great to have sunshine all the time
Zen Arado: but you get to hate the hot sun beating down on you in the summer :)
Zen Arado: though I would like some sunshine here in Ireland atm :)
Zen Arado: I used to teach people from overseas in my job and sometimes I would show them around where I live
Zen Arado: they thought the Norman castle I live near was so wonderful
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, you shared the link a couple of times :)
Zen Arado: and yet I think it is ugly
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe
Zen Arado: because I see it every day
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s hisoric
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s the normans :)
Zen Arado: so we need to see the 'ordinary' with fresh eyes
Qt Core: overexposition to art and history, most italians suffer from that (or it is just ignorance ?)
Zen Arado: but you have so much interesting art and history Qt
Zen Arado: I would love to go to Rome and see it
Zen Arado: and Florence
Qt Core: some years ago there was a little movment asking for the destruction of the Coliseum, to make something useful with the area... !
Zen Arado: oh no !
Qt Core: i think it weas only a provocation but you get the idea

Preservation of historic buildings:

Yakuzza Lethecus: hihi, i think italy really is in a struggle with the perservation of all the historic elements
Zen Arado: the leaning tower of Pisa ?
Qt Core: but yet they weren't completly wrong, if we keep everything older then say 150 years we could do nothing
Qt Core: last time i heard about it it was ok, the leaning even receded a little
Zen Arado: yes - in a way it is clinging to the past I suppose
Zen Arado: they had to do engineering work on it I think
Qt Core: about the Coliseum i've read that some work are startiing to restore it and move all the service (tickets, shops, toilets) outside of it
Qt Core: yes, quite big work on the tower and surrounding land for most of the '90 if i remember it well
Zen Arado: they need it to bring tourists
Zen Arado: I have 2 little watercolour sketches of it
Zen Arado: a friend brought me when she was on holiday
Zen Arado: she loves Italy
Qt Core: (and i never been in Rome if not for some flight coincidence)
Zen Arado: was thinking of going to live there
Qt Core: she or you ?
Zen Arado: it's a long way from Milan?
Zen Arado: she was

Travel distances and accomodation problems:

Qt Core: around 450 km
Zen Arado: I've never been there
Zen Arado: do you like to travel for holidays Qt?
Qt Core: no
Qt Core: only for eclipses ;-)
Zen Arado: was just saying to Yaku it seems everone has to travel great distances for holidays these days
Qt Core: has ? want!
Yakuzza Lethecus: When i think of the fact that i would even like to visit some friends i make here sometimes, i fear the habit would screw my ressources
Zen Arado: it seems compulsory thing :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s great to have SL to preserve the connections
Yakuzza Lethecus: and the whole groups are availibe
Qt Core: i was just speaking with a friend about the mountain place he go on holidays
Zen Arado: yes?
Qt Core: it is at something more than 100 km from here, but nowadays people go there only for weekends or long weekends
Qt Core: not anymore for months long periods
Qt Core: so many house are on sale or waiting for be rented
Zen Arado: where I live people go to Turkey, Spain , Greece - my care worker is going to Mauritius next week
Qt Core: hi cal
Zen Arado: people say you have to have a change
Zen Arado: Hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Zen Arado: I find accomodation difficult because I am disabled
Zen Arado: puts me off travel
Calvino Rabeni: Greetings :)
Zen Arado: always problems with showers and toilets
Zen Arado: though I went to London last year
Zen Arado: met a woman I met in SL:)
Qt Core: i'm almost lucky not to like to travel, as at the moment my family situation almost forbid me to travel (with the family, alone is easier)
Zen Arado: yes -it's a lot more hassle with kids
Zen Arado: they have to be entertained
Zen Arado: :)
Qt Core: sadly not kid, old mother and disabled sister
Zen Arado: ah ok
Zen Arado: if you are disabled you really need someone to help you
Zen Arado: they make it very difficult to be independent
Qt Core: the main problem is that i can't push two wheelchair at the same time ;-)
Zen Arado: that would be difficult
Zen Arado: should be easier to hire electric wheelchairs
Zen Arado: I can be almost completely independent at home
Zen Arado: but if I travel it is very different

The difference between meeting people in RL and SL:

Zen Arado: have any of you met someone in RL that you met in SL?
Zen Arado: apart from pab retreats?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no
Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t
Qt Core: yes,, someone in JApan, last summer
Yakuzza Lethecus: oh
Yakuzza Lethecus: i did
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i don´t know if it pab counts
Yakuzza Lethecus: because cologne 2 weeks ago :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i was on lia´s and her bf´s birthday
Yakuzza Lethecus: but they were all on the retreat as well
Yakuzza Lethecus: so beside pab i have no rl connections
Zen Arado: I would like to meet more of you in RL
Calvino Rabeni: I met two guardians at Princeton
Calvino Rabeni: plus Pema of course
Zen Arado: and do you feel closer to people you have met in RL?
Calvino Rabeni: There are a couple of PaB people who are also RL friends
Calvino Rabeni: but the RL came first
Zen Arado: I have only 1 RL friend who comes into SL - and he doesn't come very often
Calvino Rabeni: I would say - i "bond" better with embodied people than with SL avatars
Zen Arado: there is a deeper communication perhaps?
Calvino Rabeni: Presence
Calvino Rabeni: maybe cellular communication
Zen Arado: and if you have met someone even once in RL it would be better maybe
Zen Arado: you would have a better picture of them
Calvino Rabeni: (not phones of course, I mean somatic cells) :)
Qt Core: i think it would depend on how much i know the sl person before meeting, a little=weird
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, once is enough to establish a sense of it
Zen Arado: wonder what it is about physical presence that is important
Qt Core: non verbal communication
Qt Core: something i'm quite bad at ;-)
Zen Arado: and we are physical animals that like to touch each other
Calvino Rabeni: Actually not so, Qt
Calvino Rabeni: You're good at it - everyone is good at it
Calvino Rabeni: According to recent studies
Calvino Rabeni: maybe excepting some types of people
Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe we simply have to perfectionize the human computer interfaces to create a nondistiguisable interaction with these devices on a physical level as well
Calvino Rabeni: that can't be done
Calvino Rabeni: other than recreating an actual human :)
Calvino Rabeni: like a perfect doubue
Yakuzza Lethecus: paradise tped me this morning on board of a pirateship captured by a kraken :)
Calvino Rabeni: *double
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder how that impression would be in a strom with a seastrom and salty water :)
Zen Arado: is it possible that SL presence is purer somehow - that physical presence gives inaccurate misleading information?
Calvino Rabeni: No :)
Calvino Rabeni: (said calvino abruptly :)
Qt Core: sl gives less communication channel to focus on (that;s why i like text chat)
Zen Arado: I read somewhere that candidate in job interviews are far more likely to be successful if they are tall for instance
Calvino Rabeni: Well what is the effect then, of restricting the bandwidth to what the conscious mind can handle - known to be a miniscule portion of the flux of experience?
Zen Arado: and I kbow that if you are in a wheelchair people often form a more negative impression of you - at least initially
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but in the longer run ...
Zen Arado: maybe it is only initial impressions then
Calvino Rabeni: I think, SL can be a gateway to real contact
Qt Core: probably i find it easier to manage, cal
Calvino Rabeni: yes, that is what i meant .... but questioning if everything needs to be managed?
Calvino Rabeni: I will claim that as a personal temptation
Calvino Rabeni: but one I feel useful to disavow much of the time
Zen Arado: did any of you find a lot of difference between your impressins of someone in SL when you met them in RL?
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, a different universe
Calvino Rabeni: not comparable
Calvino Rabeni: in my experience
Zen Arado: so you forget the person in SL and concentrate on RL persona?
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, I didn't expect Pema to have a big head of dreadlocks
Calvino Rabeni: Yes zen
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: having seen Pema on video I think he wouldn't be much different if met him in RL
Zen Arado: so you can ease the transition if you speak on Skype for instance?
Calvino Rabeni: Here in SL he's mute, for one thing :)
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, Yaku is known by the quality of his voice
Calvino Rabeni: and knows, with those he has chatted with on skype or in SL voice chat
Zen Arado: perhaps we can do visual on Skype too Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t do webcam unfortunatly :(
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have only 768kbit down 128kbit upload
Calvino Rabeni: my computers are too old for that
Yakuzza Lethecus: the soundquality decreases as soon as i activate the webcam
Calvino Rabeni: I found that also
Yakuzza Lethecus: i like the geography here, but it really decreases the potential RL activites and even the global communication :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: what a sentence :)
Qt Core: very professional ;-)
Zen Arado: well - in time of course
Calvino Rabeni: decreases - because it takes up time?
Zen Arado: would be nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: my name in skype is Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean we can try, still it´s not working well in combination with the webcam
Yakuzza Lethecus: decrease because in a rural area there isn´t much you can do

A little philosophy:

Yakuzza Lethecus: i have 1 philosophy course 30 minutes from here
Yakuzza Lethecus: no good public transportation system
Yakuzza Lethecus: the course happens once a week and only for 10 times per semester
Qt Core: wb zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not surrounded by ppl whom are speaking english
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t have any academics i could simply listen too like in sl
Zen Arado: sorry - crashed - don't know why it does that in my morning session - it doesn't do it other times :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: and even if there were there i still needed to take more care of my RL appearance
Zen Arado: I did my philosophy courses through the Open University
Zen Arado: so I didn't hve to go to too many lectures
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i also consider to study maybe in part time at the fernuni hagen
Yakuzza Lethecus: still i am exploring the ways i change and i learn to communicate with SL
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s facinating since we are so borderless
Zen Arado: what kind of philosophy are you studying Yaku?
Yakuzza Lethecus: we see ourselves in others and learn from then
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t study
Yakuzza Lethecus: the course varies in the subjects
Zen Arado: you don't have to write anything?
Yakuzza Lethecus: we had evil,free will
Qt Core: hi steve
Zen Arado: Hi Steve
Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i don´t write and i have a rough time to bring anything with structure to paper
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: early rising for me
stevenaia Michinaga: oopps, sorry Zen
Zen Arado: writing is important though
Zen Arado: np Steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I seem to do that alot
Zen Arado: there is a classic text on freedom and liberalism called 'On Liberty' by JS Mill
Zen Arado: a Victorian philosopher
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, even his farther
Yakuzza Lethecus: james mill was already a popular philosopher
Zen Arado: he wrote about feminism too - he was very forward thinking for his era
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think john steward is one of the most cited ones
Zen Arado: I don't agree with utilitarianism much though
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, it´s better to be a human being dissatisfied then a pig satisfied :)
Zen Arado: yep
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care qt
Qt Core: time to go for me
Qt Core: bye all!
Zen Arado: bye Qt
stevenaia Michinaga: see you Qt
Zen Arado: I better go too
Zen Arado: lots to do on Thursdays
Zen Arado: thanks for coming and interesting discussion
Zen Arado: b ye all
stevenaia Michinaga: night Zen
stevenaia Michinaga: on one hand, sorry I missed it, on the other glad I did not wake at 4:00 am
Yakuzza Lethecus: so what are you up to this morning steve ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: are you on vacation ?
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it was the coffee at 9:30 last night that finally kicked in
Calvino Rabeni: :))
stevenaia Michinaga: I had dinner w/ my spouse's friend in manhatten last night
stevenaia Michinaga: so we drove in
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice
Calvino Rabeni: That reminds me of a story of an animal whose tail was so long, that it would bite self on tail at night,and the next morning, it would function as an alarm clock to wake up again
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, ate outside, it was lovelt
stevenaia Michinaga: lovely
Calvino Rabeni: It's pretty late here, I should be going
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Steve / Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: sleep well cal
Calvino Rabeni: TY
stevenaia Michinaga: night Cal, nice to drop in on a session at another time than usual
Calvino Rabeni: yes !
Calvino Rabeni: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: the session is already going on for a long time :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, love that sometimes
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry I missed the highlights
Yakuzza Lethecus: if we met ppl from SL apart from pab/retreats for example
Yakuzza Lethecus: perservation of historic cultural elements

Meeting people from SL:

stevenaia Michinaga: yes, there are many I have met in princeton who, if closer, I would ejoy seeing more of
stevenaia Michinaga: my circle of aquaintenenced in SL is very limited beyond PaB
Yakuzza Lethecus: I often wonder what is really better or not if there is even a better, here you can meet ppl as a group and i love when others do the talking :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: I liked the fact at the reatreat that i could also listen often but the appearances were great and i was very impressed by eos.
Yakuzza Lethecus: Not that i dislike the others, still eos and pema are a different league :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, have learned much here from listening, and you can listen very comfrtably in this group (no pressure to particiate)
stevenaia Michinaga: interesting you should say that, I found them to be, one one hand, "in a different league" as you say, yet as approachable as a close friend
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s often just sad when no serious subject comes up, partly i fear of silence not only because ,,i want to hear something facinating" but also because we have some ppl around here whom seem not to come back when they get the feeling that it becomes a waste of time
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least that is my impression, there were a few ppl i kind of looked up to whom aren´t showing anymore because their schedule´s are full and they need to priorize
Yakuzza Lethecus: and when there are simply silent sessions or like my own friday sillysession i fear em to be gone after a while
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, the approachability of the ppl here is what facinates me in pab and also some other places in sl
Yakuzza Lethecus: you meet ppl whom are apart from ur social background and of course geographical

Group dynamics - what should happen in SL or PAB groups?

Yakuzza Lethecus: so when i go to the virtual goethe institut in secondlife i like the fact that the ppl do that all out of their own interest
stevenaia Michinaga: seems that sillyness is one aspect of PaB that is also comforting, I remember some of the early sessions with pema and others outside the original tea house that were guite silly
stevenaia Michinaga: quite
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it´s just one element i mean sessions can be silly and constructive :)
stevenaia Michinaga: group silly ness only works in a group that is open to is, goes to the openness of the group to go with the floow of the mood
stevenaia Michinaga: and with conversation and less formal interations, there seems to be a group dynamic that moves with the mood of the moment
Yakuzza Lethecus: right now i am still at a stage were i am not sure how i can be really constructive even in my own voice session i hope that other ppl bring the interesting subjects into the circle
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i have a rough time to loose expectations and simply just being
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m sure there are tiem when I jsut sit quietly intil a "hook" catched me
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s what i always hope for
stevenaia Michinaga: orther time there are conversation that just pass me by
Yakuzza Lethecus: and tacidly i create a grasp for it and feel bad when it didn´t happen and expect the ,,not happening" and loose my being
Yakuzza Lethecus: a kind of negative rotation
stevenaia Michinaga: learning to jsut accept that is important as well
Yakuzza Lethecus: i prefer let go instead of accept
Yakuzza Lethecus: the words are quiet similar to me
Yakuzza Lethecus: but accept means it´s on my mind
Yakuzza Lethecus: while let go means it´s out of concious
Yakuzza Lethecus: or nearly
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, let go of expectation , yet still return to wait for the "mood"
stevenaia Michinaga: I wuldn;t come back if there were no expectations, yet I am not dissappointed when "nothing" of interest happens
stevenaia Michinaga: I cannot explain that
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i try to be here habitually
stevenaia Michinaga: an hout here or an hour somewhere else, it is usually more satifying here
stevenaia Michinaga: *hour
stevenaia Michinaga: breakfast time for me
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Yak
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care