2009.12.01 19:00 - You Dreaming, Being Dreaming

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Foxtree
Foxtree Gorbunov: hi
Foxtree Gorbunov: how is going Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: Pretty well...
Foxtree Gorbunov: good
Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being before?
Foxtree Gorbunov: no...
Foxtree Gorbunov: first time
Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
Foxtree Gorbunov: cool
Eos Amaterasu: we meet here to contemplate & discuss & approach the nature of reality.
Foxtree Gorbunov: so I was told
Eos Amaterasu: The chat conversation here is logged (recorded): is that all right?
Eos Amaterasu: It appears on a wiki, http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Foxtree Gorbunov: I have no worrys
Eos Amaterasu: Here every 15 minutes we take a 90 second break
Eos Amaterasu: & just observe
Foxtree Gorbunov: I can observe some what well
Eos Amaterasu: There's such a break coming up on the hour, so we can try that
Eden Haiku: HI Eos! Hello Foxtree.
Foxtree Gorbunov: I am a joker how ever
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eden!
Foxtree Gorbunov: Hi Eden
Eos Amaterasu: Foxtree is about to try his first 90 secs :-)

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: maybe the joke is that there was no ending bell :-)
Eos Amaterasu: heh heh
Foxtree Gorbunov: so did we start?
Eos Amaterasu: How was that, fox?
Foxtree Gorbunov: good
Eden Haiku: Yes, I was starting to wonder...
Foxtree Gorbunov: now we talk?
Eos Amaterasu: The bells at the beginning of a session are different....
Foxtree Gorbunov: oh
Eden Haiku: This 90 seconds seemed like 3 or 4 minutes?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, we can talk.... what happened during the 90 secs?
Foxtree Gorbunov: nothing....I clear my mind
Eos Amaterasu: I had all kinds of energies of preoccupation
Eos Amaterasu: but as I noticed those and relaxed
Eos Amaterasu: more of the world became visible and audible
Eden Haiku: My day came back to me by waves.
Foxtree Gorbunov: but what could you do about it
Foxtree Gorbunov: what can be done with it?
Foxtree Gorbunov: the past is past
Eden Haiku: It was like my mine clearing itself I guess..
Eden Haiku: *mind
Eos Amaterasu: nice pun
Foxtree Gorbunov: cool
Foxtree Gorbunov: can you clean up the past?
Eden Haiku: The deep mine of my mind...
Eos Amaterasu: you can't clean up the past
Eos Amaterasu: even the present is too late
Foxtree Gorbunov: why not?
Eos Amaterasu: when things come up they've already come up
Foxtree Gorbunov: if it is all in the minds eye?
Eos Amaterasu: it's only at that point you can do something about it, most notably by not doing
Eos Amaterasu: by not furthering the compulsivie repetition
Foxtree Gorbunov: then past and future are only in the maind
Eos Amaterasu: what is the mind's eye?
Eden Haiku: It felt like some rewinding, very mechanical. Fast images: a hand holding an handle in the subway, faces, excellent meal I had in a new restaurant...
Eos Amaterasu: or, whose is the mind's eye?
Foxtree Gorbunov: I have a lost fiend
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eden Haiku: Bye!
Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes my "camera" seems to get attached to another avatar
Eos Amaterasu: like my consciousness gets hijacked by another body :-)
Eden Haiku: How so?
Eos Amaterasu: When foxtree left the pavilion my viewpoint "followed" him out....
Eden Haiku: Look a lion!!!
Eos Amaterasu: It's a 3D lion!
Eos Amaterasu: Welcome, 3D
Threedee Shepherd: Good evening fellow PaBers
Eden Haiku: Hello Threedee!
Eos Amaterasu: 3D is a long-time PaBer....
Eos Amaterasu: we are not speciest here
Threedee Shepherd: glad to hear it
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
Eden Haiku: Speciest... LOL
Eden Haiku: Roaring!!
Threedee Shepherd: hi calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello all.
Eden Haiku: HI Calvino.
Eos Amaterasu: How does a lion experience the 90 secs?
Threedee Shepherd: I am unsure the outfit being worn has very much to do with it.
Eos Amaterasu: Would someone like to suggest an approach to the upcoming 90 secs?
Calvino Rabeni: Eden, have you got setup inside your virtual house?
Eden Haiku: Maybe boundaries.
Eden Haiku: That could be a good subject for the 90 secs yes?
Calvino Rabeni: How about, "where am I?"
Calvino Rabeni: Sure
Threedee Shepherd: Although, by now my persona is deeply entangled with this lion avatar , so it probably does matter in ways I do not realize explicitly
Eos Amaterasu: HI Paradise
Eden Haiku: Hi Paradise.
Paradise Tennant: good evening :) everyone
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Paradise

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Any observations / field reports / roars / whimpers?
Threedee Shepherd: calmness
Eden Haiku: Nervousness
Paradise Tennant: blinking
Paradise Tennant: :)
Eos Amaterasu: CAn you say more about calmness, 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: I am in a latter stage of life, comfortable retirement. It is calm in a way that the pressures of daily life did not previously allow
Eos Amaterasu: Ah.... I envy you :-)
Eos Amaterasu: a lion surveying the plains, but no particular need to leap?
Threedee Shepherd: So would I have. I wonder why I could not discover this way of being 35 years ago ;D
Eden Haiku: I enjoyed Eos remark about us not being speciest here. I saw Twilight 2 today, and the whole theater was laughing at some silliness in the script. There is a lot of talk about being «speciest» or not, with vampires and werewolfs...
Threedee Shepherd: exactly
Eos Amaterasu: So how would one approach, in pre-retirement, even 30 years before retirement, that kind of state of mind?
Eden Haiku: Here, we meet regularly with elephants, bunnies , foxes and the like. We are really not speciest. I enjoy the neologism...
Eos Amaterasu: We are also not "life-ist".... do both SL and RL and DL
Eden Haiku: DL?
Eos Amaterasu: Dream Life
Eden Haiku: Nice ;-)
Eos Amaterasu: (where we also have avatars :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Any reports from DL?
Threedee Shepherd: I wonder if it is possible. Earlier I had ambition for career, family, security. I am not sure I would have achieved without ambition, and I think now that ambition blocks the calmness. ?Though perhaps not.
Eden Haiku: My friend had a dream about this little house here in the village, it is a pub I think? He saw it on my screen and had a dream about it!
Eos Amaterasu: !
Calvino Rabeni: Nice crossover.
Paradise Tennant: hmm interesting when the virtual and real life world merge in dreams
Paradise Tennant: kind of makes you realize it is all dreams :)
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in waking.
Eos Amaterasu: About a month ago I had my first merged SL / RL dream
Eden Haiku: Oh!
Eden Haiku: Tell is about it Eos.
Eos Amaterasu: SL characters as well as RL characters (RL is a funny term to use)
Eos Amaterasu: The dream involved two avatars I know in SL, one of whom I also know in RL
Eos Amaterasu: seemed no big deal at the time :-)
Eos Amaterasu: I am waiting for reports of people doing PaB in their dreams, lucidly or not.
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eden Haiku: ;-) How interesting!
Eos Amaterasu wonders if you can do PaB non-lucidly (wonders if you can do PaB lucidly)
Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure how different a dream is from PaB
Eos Amaterasu: Let's investigate that :-)

--BELL--

Threedee Shepherd: In a dream I watch what "floats by" my awareness without apparently controlling it. Sounds alot like an ideal PaB experience
Paradise Tennant: hmm sometimes in a dream ..there is the sense you can relax and control it .. it is your dream .. I guess the influence of lucidity ?
Eos Amaterasu: So was this 90 secs PaB like a dream?
Eos Amaterasu: Is what I am experiencing right now like a dream?
Eden Haiku: It reminded me my first sessions here.
Threedee Shepherd: dreams involve "impossible" conjunctions in a way awake awareness does not.


Eden recounts meeting her late mother here in SL

Eden Haiku: I'm still grieving my mother who died a year and a half ago. The fisrt times I came here, about a month ago, I had the feeling she was sitting amongst us. Like in a dream.
Threedee Shepherd nods
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, interesting crossover of realms
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Maitreya
Eden Haiku: I read the chat logs of the day she died. In one of them, a particpant narrates a dream in which he was The Reaper !
maitreya Core: hello
Eden Haiku: Hello Maitreya.
Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to PaB before, Maitreya?
maitreya Core: hello nice to meet you
maitreya Core: no
Eos Amaterasu: We discuss and explore the nature of reality, through brief attention suspensions
Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
maitreya Core: hope im not disturbing you
Eos Amaterasu: Chats here are logged (recorded), and put up on our wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Eos Amaterasu: Is that all right with you?
maitreya Core: do i have a choice ?
Eden Haiku: No, not at all. You are very welcome!
Eden Haiku: *about disturbing...
Eos Amaterasu: Well, the logging takes place automatically
maitreya Core: ok
Eos Amaterasu: I'm the "guardian" of this session, and can edit the log afterwards
maitreya Core: im happy
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eden Haiku: You have a very inspiring name!
maitreya Core: why does it inspire you ?
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Threedee Shepherd: To come back to our toppic area, how do you think the way this session is happening would be different if it were like a dream?
Eden Haiku: Well, it reminds me the promise of the Kalachakra of 2006 in Amavarathi, India. We were told that we were sure to meet the next Buddha in a future life. I did'nt expect it to be so soon ;-)
maitreya Core: yes
Eden Haiku: It would be more irrational I guess, though it can be sometimes, quite irrational too...
Eos Amaterasu: Usually in dreams there's pretty total immersion in the reality of the dream, so to speak.... not much distance, observation
Eos Amaterasu: There's more such awareness in lucid dreaming
Eos Amaterasu: Here we drop into the 90 secs every 15 minutes
Eos Amaterasu: But those 90 secs are themselves within the 15 mins which is itself within a greater 9 / 90 / 9 trillion secs
Eos Amaterasu: that's the dreamlike quality, in a way

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: alas I have a very early morning so I will wish you all a good night and thank you for as always interesting discussion :)
Eos Amaterasu: Bye paradise
Eden Haiku: Good nite Paradise!
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Calvino Rabeni: Could it be, Eos, that we are not really "lucid" in th waking state?
Eden Haiku: The lion is taking a bath!
Eos Amaterasu: must be hot....
Threedee Shepherd: you are just dreaming that
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: outrageous, illogical things are happening - I must be dreaming!
Eden Haiku: Ah ah!
Eos Amaterasu: Most of the time I suspect we are not terribly lucid in the waking state
Eos Amaterasu: or in the dreaming state
Eden Haiku: Dreambird dragon!
Eos Amaterasu: beautiful
Eden Haiku: You have beautiful avatars Threedee!
Threedee Shepherd: grendel's children shop
Eden Haiku: Vanished into thin air!
Eden Haiku: Wow!
Eos Amaterasu: 3D is putting on quite a show!
Eden Haiku: I'm amazed!



Threedee Shepherd: did anything happen while I was away?
Eos Amaterasu: you'll never believe us!
Threedee Shepherd: hehehe
Eden Haiku: Hello Lion! No, nothing special why do you ask ;-)
Threedee Shepherd: just daydreaming I guess
Eos Amaterasu: there were several sudden presences of appearance :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I was daydreaming too - seafood, think. :)
Eos Amaterasu: appreciated them greatly
maitreya Core: thank you
Threedee Shepherd: bye
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao maitreya
Eos Amaterasu: see you in the future :-)
maitreya Core: who's leavimg ?
maitreya Core: lol im only kidding
maitreya Core: goodbye
Eden Haiku: Bye!
Eos Amaterasu: So Eden, this circle could somehow encompass the presence of your mother?!?
Eden Haiku: Encompass..maybe not. But she seemed like an avatar to me, as I dreamed about her wearing a sari (which was really strange).
Eden Haiku: And I felt she was sitting with us, in the first days here,
Eden Haiku: Pema Pera: So in PaB, our attitude is to play, and specifically to play as if "all is Being" already, before we even try in any way to see that -- and our activity is to stop, to drop activities, frequently, in a gentle way, to ease into this powerful Nothing

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: this powerful Nothing
Eden Haiku: I read that on the chat log about the Prehistory of PaB. I find that quote very interesting.


Calvino inquires into lucid dreaming...

Calvino Rabeni: Eos, you do lucid dreaming?
Eos Amaterasu: I have done lucid dreaming
Eos Amaterasu: (is this a dream ? :-)
Eos Amaterasu: (reality testing...)
Eden Haiku: Are you lucid ;-)
Threedee Shepherd: I have enjoyed the hour together, friends, and need to go. goodnight ^.^
Eden Haiku: Goodnite 3D, nice to meet you!
Eos Amaterasu: Goodnight Threedee.... thanks for manifesting your true selves :-)
Threedee Shepherd chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: See you again, 3d
Calvino Rabeni: I am questioning it, considering your last question
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Calvino Rabeni: What I'm thinking, is that the state of "lucidity" in a lucid dream is not the same lucidity of waking consciousness. Therefore we could be "awake" and not have it.
Eos Amaterasu: a lot of our so-called waking life is spent filtting in and out of dream states, fixations, getting caught up in things
Eos Amaterasu: there can be various degrees of lucidity in the dream state
Eos Amaterasu: likewise in the waking state
Eos Amaterasu: and in either state there seems to be a background "dreamer", or lucidity, which is not "my" lucidity
Calvino Rabeni: right, so in that sense, if the dreamer is not awake during the waking state, one is not lucid
Calvino Rabeni: Usually, waking from a dream, it is "over".
Calvino Rabeni: Meaning a loss of connection with the dreamer
Eos Amaterasu: Yes. But you can wake "in" the dream
Eos Amaterasu: and be aware that you are dreaming while still allowing the dream world/interactions to continue
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, but perhaps the lucidity can overlap both states of consciousness
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Eos Amaterasu: some people can go from waking to dreaming while not losing awareness (that's OBE style of lucid dreaming)
Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Eden Haiku: Sorry, I have to go. See you!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eden,
Eos Amaterasu: Robert Waggoner has explored this quite subtly
Eos Amaterasu: http://www.amazon.com/Lucid-Dreaming.../dp/193049114X
Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, thanks
Eos Amaterasu: By far the deepest book I've read on LD
Eos Amaterasu: In LD you can learn to control your dream..... somewhat


You dreaming, Being dreaming...

Eos Amaterasu: Very unexpected things can still happen: you as the lucid one are still not entirely "the dreamer"


You being, Being being...

Eos Amaterasu: just like the ground awareness in PaB is not entirely "your own"
Calvino Rabeni: I think, if I were to want to explore that realm, I would do it from the awake side of things
Eos Amaterasu: SL is fascinating in providing yet another playground for this kind of exploration

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: But I appreciate that people specialize in investigating the phenomena of LD


Imagery, dream, story as ways of knowing...

Calvino Rabeni: Someone told me Maxine does waking dreaming. Have you had conversations about that?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I'm surprised at how many people can easily slip into dream states, pretty directly from the waking state.
Eos Amaterasu: or imagistic states
Calvino Rabeni: If it is in the chat logs, I'll look it up
Eos Amaterasu: there's a kind of visual, story-telling level of language that is available to us
Eos Amaterasu: I realized this during the August real life retreat in California
Calvino Rabeni: The stories are an important mode.
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe it was just the particular people there, but I realized that the kind of verbal explanatory exploratory narrative I'm used to is not the only way


Seeing sentience in objects...

Calvino Rabeni: Part of that level also, I think, is the ability to see sentience in "objects".
Eos Amaterasu: PaB, the 90 secs, can be approached, and expressed, in many ways
Calvino Rabeni: Like, relaxing the S / O distinction.
Eos Amaterasu: let things speak
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this is what I meant, good.
Calvino Rabeni: Have to be generous with them and listen

The dreamtime happening right now...

Eos Amaterasu: that may be part of what "the dreamtime" is about, that level of the s /o distinctions forming/reforming where reality is still pliable
Calvino Rabeni: seems that way, yes
Eos Amaterasu: the dreamtime is happening all the time, right now
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes we can access it more
Calvino Rabeni: as in PAB, when being looks back
Calvino Rabeni: I agree
Eos Amaterasu: things are their own poetry :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Rationalists may fear a return to the animistic, demon-haunted world of our ancestors.


Exeunt omnes

Calvino Rabeni: that is a nice way to put it
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, Calvino, great discussion
Eos Amaterasu: Have to go to bed, speaking of dreaming :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Talk to you later, EOS, sleep well.
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Eos Amaterasu: I'm still waiting for the first report of PaB in a dream :-)