2009.12.25 01:00 - What Are You Interested In?

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, standing in for Wol Euler. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Bertram Jacobus: whaow - pema ! at THIS time ? :-))
Pema Pera: Hi Bertram!
Pema Pera: Oh, in Japan it is now 6 pm
Bertram Jacobus: so early in the mornig / late night ? :-)
Pema Pera: just before dinner :)
Pema Pera: I am taking over Wol's slot for today
Bertram Jacobus: ah - you´re in japan again ! why is that so often ? :-)
Pema Pera: I spend a few months in Japan every year
Pema Pera: I have various research projects that I am involved in, working with Japanese astronomers
Bertram Jacobus: ahh - since when is that already ?
Pema Pera: well, let's see, I got a little telescope when I was 12 years old . . . .
Pema Pera: then studies astronomy at the university
Pema Pera: in Holland
Pema Pera: then got a job in the U.S.
Pema Pera: oh, by the way
Pema Pera: I am in a coffeeshop here in Kyoto, Japan
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - nooo - i meant the japan research projects - or the yearly travels and stays there (?) ... :-)
Pema Pera: but I have not found an electric outlet
Bertram Jacobus: kyoto ! the town of the many monastaries ...
Pema Pera: so I have to change batteries
Pema Pera: I have to get out of SL
Pema Pera: and I will be back in a few minutes
Bertram Jacobus: okay -
Pema Pera: I can wait a couple minutes, but if I suddenly disappear, you know why, and you can expect me back soon again -- best to use up the first battery completely
Pema Pera: (sorry to bother you with those details :-)
Bertram Jacobus: i see. yes. and are you meanwhile a bit familiar with the japanese culture, language, religions ? ...
Bertram Jacobus: no : it´s nice to know the basics ("details") - ty :-)
Pema Pera: yes, I'm reasonably fluent in Japanese by now
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - how impressive ! so again my question : since when you travel to japan ?
Pema Pera: oh, since 25 years
Bertram Jacobus: whaow again ! that´s quite a long time !
Pema Pera: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: that reminds me to an old godmother i had. she was professor too and traveld in very early years to japan and brought back a very early love and interest for the i ging and other spirituals from there ...
Bertram Jacobus: that was very unusual in that times, especially for a woman (!) ...
Pema Pera: travel is becoming easier and easier these days -- nonstops flights from New York to Tokyo. It takes 14 hours, but at least you don't have to change planes anymore.
Bertram Jacobus: and with her legacy, she gave me, as a 15 year old boy, who i was at that time - her most important books (!) ...
Pema Pera: how nice!
Pema Pera: what kind of books?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. first : the i ging. then a book called - i only know in german : das vermächtnis der goldenen bllüte (you know it?) and third - a tao te king i guess ...
Bertram Jacobus: with notices in them she made ...
Pema Pera: I'm afraid I don't know the second book
Pema Pera: that's great, to get such a personalized gift!
Bertram Jacobus: should be possible to find in google. a very esoteric one , in agood sense (nowadays one has to add this) ... ;-)
Pema Pera: (no I have to change the batteries -- back in a couple minutes!)
Bertram Jacobus: ok
--BELL--

Pema Pera: back again!
Bertram Jacobus: then - welcome back (!) :-)
Bertram Jacobus: i just searched a bit the net about the book ... it´s about energies and how to handle them and may be even some more - how to find to the essential and such ...
Pema Pera: Taoist, perhaps?
Bertram Jacobus: in the text i just read, was written taoist and buddhist, but i´m not sure, whether that is correct
Bertram Jacobus: do you have opersonal links to some of the japanese monasteries ?
Bertram Jacobus: personal*
Pema Pera: not really
Pema Pera: I have visited a few
Bertram Jacobus: why not ? :-)
Pema Pera: I have been interested in zen mostly during the seventies and early eighties
Pema Pera: but after I started visiting Japan my main interest shifted more toward Tibetan Buddhism
Pema Pera: and I did go to a few Tibetan Buddhist retreats in Japan :)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. culture mix ! ... :-))
Pema Pera: yup
Bertram Jacobus: one world ... coming together ...
Bertram Jacobus: for me, the tantra practises, at the moment, appear a bit like white magic ... and i´m a bit sceptical about that ...
Pema Pera: in order to do anything with tantra, you'd better find a good teacher first
Pema Pera: I have never done specific tantra practices
Pema Pera: that is just one aspect of Tibetan Buddhism
Bertram Jacobus: but may be more, that i can´t do them so very well. prefer shine meditation and a way of practise which i like to understand in the words karma yoga. accumulating merit in tibetan understanding may be -
Bertram Jacobus: i was some years in tibetan communities, with teachers and such -
Pema Pera: Kagyu?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. traditional
Bertram Jacobus: not ole io mean ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: i*
Pema Pera: I am not very familiar with the various Western teachers
Pema Pera: and I'm certainly not interested in controversies . . . .
Bertram Jacobus: the 16th karmapa sent gendün rinpoche to france where he built as said a monastery, a retreat center and a shedra still to come. there mostly about 100 people are in three years and longer retreats (twelve years and lifetime) ....
Pema Pera: quite impressive!
Bertram Jacobus: it´s a very intense athmosphere there
Pema Pera: I had the good luck to meet the 16th Karmapa, a year before he died
Bertram Jacobus: how nice
--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: when you say you are not interested in controversies - what are you interested in ? ;-)
Pema Pera: exploring the nature of reality . . . .
Bertram Jacobus: oh yes, nice answer ... and what did you find refering to this already ?
Pema Pera: perhaps the simplest answer is to say that things are not they way they appear at first sight
Pema Pera: and it is exactly by looked at *how* everything appears that we can see that for ourselves
Pema Pera: we can then see how we are usually caught up in all kind of games of identifications
Pema Pera: but really each moment we have the freedom to step back from all those tangles and just watch
Pema Pera: just watch what appears -- as it appears
Pema Pera: there is no greater freedom to be gained than to be free from the automatic identifications that we are normally wrapped up in
Bertram Jacobus: and do you think, you will find more insights, "above that" ? ... ;-)
Pema Pera: well, insights come by themselves -- and they don't need an "I" to find them . . . .
Bertram Jacobus: okay - they may meet you ...
Pema Pera: drop the sense of self and the Universe unfolds itself in the most wonderful ways
Pema Pera: without a program, without a goal or aim
Pema Pera: each moment can then be seen as a present from the Universe
Bertram Jacobus: but what i meant was : do you think, there are unexplored principals which are helpful and which you did not meet yet ?
Pema Pera: oh, of course, I have met only a very very tiny fraction of what there is to see/meet/find, obviously
Pema Pera: but that's okay, I'm not trying to find more
Pema Pera: but I'm happy if they find me :)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. why "obviously" ? (!) :-)
Pema Pera: oh, the Universe is so vast, potential knowledge is so vast . . . .
Bertram Jacobus: ok ...
Pema Pera: it's pretty obvious that I've seen only the tiniest sliver
Pema Pera: besides, when I read about the insight of the greatest teachers of the past, I can get enough of a glimpse of what they found to see how little I am yet able to understand what they were up to . . . .
Bertram Jacobus: but ... stop me if you don´t like that please : what about the dark side of being : war, torture, controversies ? people in such relations often can´t see life as a present - how to deal with that ?
Pema Pera: that's a central question
Pema Pera: the question that the Buddha started with: suffering in life
Pema Pera: and the only answer can be found, ultimately, in seeing the emptiness and co-dependent arising of all phenomena
Bertram Jacobus: is it better to push that aside or to deal with it ? what do you think ?
Pema Pera: but that in itself is just a sentence, just words, what I just said -- it has to be seen/lived/realized
Pema Pera: deal with it is always best
Pema Pera: not suppress or deny, but openly watch it, and live with it
Pema Pera: yet also look through and beyond it

Bertram Jacobus: how then i may understand your sentence from before that you were not interested in controversies ?
Pema Pera: oh, if they cross my path, I deal with them, sure, but I am not attracted by them; I don't seek them
Bertram Jacobus: i´m considering the word interest ... is it active ? ...
Pema Pera: ?
Bertram Jacobus: being interested - is it an activity or a kind of state, so to say automatically (and in that way "passive")
Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! ... :-)
Pema Pera: hi Qt!
Qt Core: hi all
Pema Pera: I just meant that I have no special interest in controversies -- the way I would have an interest in a cup of tea and try to drink one :-)
Pema Pera: nothing deep!
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: yes. i understood that. but now i meant generally.
Bertram Jacobus: and the may be even more interesting question is linked to that for me : do we really have the power to act or don´t we (!?)
Bertram Jacobus: in other words : can or do we play or are we played ?
Pema Pera: that's not a question that worries me much, Bert, I like to appreciate what happens and deal with it as best I can
Pema Pera: such questions I'm happy to leave to philosophers
Pema Pera: ultimately there is no "me" or "self" so whether in our relative way of understanding this so-called self has power or not is to some extent not a very important question
Pema Pera: we act "as if" we have power, while we also can hold a vision (a hypothesis if you like) that there is no self and no power
Pema Pera: the point is to act naturally
Bertram Jacobus: i have the impression, it makes a big difference whether we have good or bad conditions in life ... hm -
Pema Pera: yes and no -- relatively speaking, yes, of course -- but more radically speaking, any moment can be a way to celebrate, to practice, to learn to deal with what is
Bertram Jacobus: may be there are good life religions and a bad life religions ? ... but i don´t want to bore too ... so , sry please ...
Pema Pera: the real challenge is to learn to drop judgments of good and bad, in the sense of no longer being caught into the duality of such judgments
Pema Pera: you can choose for yourself which kind of religion or practice appeals to you
Pema Pera: I would not want to put a lable "good" or "bad" on a whole tradition . . . .
Pema Pera: to point is to explore, using your own sense and your own experience
Pema Pera: and more and more you will learn to live more naturally, to see more and more accurately
Bertram Jacobus: but ! you by yourself seem to divide very sharp what to do and to choose and what not ! (?) - and the body already says us, what is good and what not. ok : condemning is not godd - that is what i see and think - but dividing, so to say in the relative field - ok ... isn´t it ?
Pema Pera: and all those questions will either dissolve or be answered
Pema Pera: sure, that's what I meant with living in accord with what is natural
Pema Pera: you will develop more and more of an intuition of what is appropriate in any situation
Pema Pera: but that is a judgment-on-the-spot, of what to do in each particular situation
Pema Pera: it is not a global judgment of a whole religion, say, in a more abstract way
Pema Pera: and there are two judgments on the spot:
Pema Pera: one is to make a judgment of what to do
Pema Pera: and another judgment would be whether to label something good or bad -- that second one is not necessary
Pema Pera: the label is too much
Pema Pera: the label tends to persist beyond the moment
Bertram Jacobus: ok. tyvm. i hope, i did not cause bad feelings - i often fear to be misunderstood in such directions ...
Qt Core: or at least not permanent (the second judging)
Pema Pera: nono, it's good to ask and give your opinions!
Pema Pera: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: and i enjoyed this hour very much. nice having had this time with you ! and interesting ...
Pema Pera: if somebody says something unpleasant, you don't have to judge that person to be "an unpleasant person"
Pema Pera: rather the only thing you have to say is "in this particular moment and situation the person said something unpleasant"
Bertram Jacobus: i know
Pema Pera: and it is good to be open for the possibility that the next moment can be very different
Pema Pera: Yes, I enjoyed the conversation too!
Bertram Jacobus: but i haven´t realized it permanently yet sadly
Qt Core: and i will pronbably end up being unpleasant to him ;-)

Pema Pera: and I'll have to go to dinner now
Pema Pera: welcome to the club, Bert :-)
Pema Pera: only fully realized Buddhas have realized it permanently :-)
Bertram Jacobus: then have a very nice dinner please ! :-)
Pema Pera: nice seeing you both here!
Bertram Jacobus: or how ever we call such persons ... ;-)
Pema Pera: bye for now
Qt Core: bye then pema
Bertram Jacobus: very fast, how often - people disappear ;-)
--BELL--
Qt Core: awoke less than half an hour ago... it was hard to follow ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. but your text lines "sounded" like very well involved ... ;-)
Qt Core: as i tend to be quite judgmental is a topic i feel "near"
Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. i see :-)
Bertram Jacobus: you have some days out off work now too ? :-)
Qt Core: 4 sparse between yesterday and 6/1
Qt Core: for my famili issues i spend all my days off during the year
Bertram Jacobus: 4 what please ? days ?
Qt Core: 4 days off yes
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay - nice ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: now i found "sparse" in the dictionary ... ;-)
Qt Core: ;-)
Qt Core: i used to get more days, but as usually at home i tire more than in the office it's an hard call... speaking about judgement ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm ... ;-) (thinking, considering, contemplating that) ...
Qt Core: do you need the hourglass or spinning circle windows wait animations ? ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: sorry ? did not get that ... my poor english - could you express that in another, additional way perhaps ? :-/
Qt Core: i was offering (not that i have those, i was just kidding) to gave you one of the "please wait work in progress" animation that vista/xp use
Bertram Jacobus: ahh - ty :o)
Bertram Jacobus: and : ty, no :o)
Bertram Jacobus: i thought about living alone (as me) versus living with a family and how different that is ...
--BELL--
Qt Core: it may be hard, especially during holidays or "down" periods
Qt Core: not that i know as i'm not living alone
Bertram Jacobus: it has the both sides, advantages and disadvantages. luckily i have many friends. that helps when necessairy -
Qt Core: that's nice, i almost haven't considered the friend factor as i'm not very social
Bertram Jacobus: different again ! ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: "but" / and - in germany there are so many singles ! is that in italy the same ?
Qt Core: noo, we are the mum's baby country, you stay at home until you go live with your girlfriend/boyfriend or marry him ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: interesting (!) both western europe developed and so called first world countries, but so different in that point (!) ... hmm ...
Qt Core: and even then "we" try to get a home as much as near to the parent house one can find (that would help in babysitting too)
Bertram Jacobus: whaow. and "ok" : in generally i guessed that form italy ... it´s known here too, "your" big families " , family life and such ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: from*
Qt Core: in the building i live there is me and two family ... they are both uncles, and a thirt uncles lives less than 100 m away ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-))
Qt Core: one of the cousins just come home yesterday from his honeymoon ... and he lives less than 300 meters from here now ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: nice ... :-)
Qt Core: but this being near, especially between relatives can get pretty ugly if relations go bad, as it is improbable you can leave and go living elsewere, as, for example i feel i can't sell my part of this building as it is in my family possession for many, many years
Qt Core: (we are speaking about centuries i think)
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i understand that - normally and mostly i live in a big town, quite free so to say. but when i was in a small village for a few years, i felt similar, in that direction ... in that way ... all very close and no chance to hide ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: so many human variations of living ! ...
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: but ... now i´m getting chat tired a bit ... would like to retire ... sry - would that be okay ? ... ;-)
Qt Core: yes, i have to cook now ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: fine. as always : nice havin met you. have a good time, until next time (at least) ! :-)
Qt Core: bye
Bertram Jacobus: bye qt :-)