2009.12.13 13:00 - Observing the observer

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by her

This session seems to have a variety of threads, one of which was the different ways we can avoid observing and noting our direct experience.  As goc I try, perhaps relentlessly to have the group note experience during the 90 second pauses.  Wol, Stevenaia, try to offer mentoring as does Eliza when she joins.  The reader can discern how the group and individuals responded to their efforts.  

  For convenience I have deleted many intros and salutations but keep Steve and Wol's comments as they prepare to mentor this session. 

stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Wol Euler: hello steve
stevenaia Michinaga: will take notes for my evening session :)
Wol Euler: oh, I was hoping to take notes from you.#
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
stevenaia Michinaga: You will be asleep during my session
Wol Euler: you could take this one, if you like! I've already had a mentoring moment last week :)
Wol Euler: then I could see how you do it, and take notes (bats eyes convincingly)
Wol Euler: *eyelashes
stevenaia Michinaga: as did I on wednesday, not sure how helpful it was to the group, but was amazed at the turnout
stevenaia Michinaga: hello maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Steve and Wol
Wol Euler: hello maxine
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect you will make a better Mentor Maxine
Maxine Walden: no, doubt that, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: points fingers all around
Maxine Walden: ah, spreading the wealth, Steve?
Wol Euler: hello doug
Maxine Walden: hi, doug
--BELL--
doug Sosa: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: as time moves on am thinking this "Play" approach is applicable to many thing when you don't think you know
Maxine Walden: say more, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: when i doubt ... Play as you do
stevenaia Michinaga: *in
stevenaia Michinaga: Play as being, Play as Mentor, Play as facilitator... Play as....... fill in the blanks
Liza Deischer: hi everybody
doug Sosa: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: were you from that class last week or so?
stevenaia Michinaga: two weeks ago

Steve mentions an exercise on observation, but the theme of observing the observers enters the session

stevenaia Michinaga: a class from Northern Az University sat in on a session
Wol Euler: oh cool.
Wol Euler: hello calvino, zen
doug Sosa: missed it, class on...?
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
stevenaia Michinaga: SL groups
Liza Deischer: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
doug Sosa: ah.
stevenaia Michinaga: the observers become the subject
Calvino Rabeni: G'day mates.
Wol Euler: hello aubergine
Aubergine Mint: hi everyone
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/11/2009.11.29_19%3a00_-_Homework
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
Liza Deischer: im glad you choose an other way in ::)
Eliza Madrigal: apologies... here but a little scattered... brb
Wol Euler is feeling absolutely miserable (cold-ish) and may have to go to bed before the hour is up.
Aubergine Mint: sorry :(
Maxine Walden: Ah, Wol, so sorry to hear that. Of course do what you need to for well-being
Wol Euler: ty steve
stevenaia Michinaga: yes wol, sleep and tea and a bit of scotch work wonders
stevenaia Michinaga: (separate glasses or Storm will hurt me)
Wol Euler grins at that last noun and slides off to the kitchen
Maxine Walden: Yes, there may be lots of 'remedies' offered from each of us, Wol.

I begin my 'relentless' efforts to bring attention to PaB issues and Aubergine asks an important question about goals of PaB.  Different kinds of 'learning' come into the conversation

Maxine Walden: Wondering what PaB themes, concerns there may be to bring to our conversation...
stevenaia Michinaga: brb, needs to check cookies in the oven
Aubergine Mint: what is the goal of PaB
doug Sosa: bsb = bring some back!
Aubergine Mint: is there a learning curve
doug Sosa: learning curve is bad, makes learning look like an uphill job.
Zen Arado: more about being than learning?
Maxine Walden: good question, Aubergine. Anyone wish to share his/her thoughtsfor Aubergine?
Zen Arado: not self-improvement
Aubergine Mint: aren't we learning about being
Zen Arado: got me there :)
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: perhaps trying to explore ways to connect with being which may lie below our everyday notions
Liza Deischer: if I didnt want to learn I wasnt here
Wol Euler: well, yes, but only in the way that most of life is about learning :)
Zen Arado: not intellectual conceptual learning
Wol Euler: I'm not sure that "learning curve" is a relevant concept, because there is no beginning and no end to it

I suggest directly experiencing again, and the possible tension between intellectual and experiential learning seems in the air

Maxine Walden: One way to explore aspects of reality is to stop, as in these 90 second pauses, to stop and observe who/what we are...we might wish to try that at the next bell at 1:30pm SL
Liza Deischer: thsi is the place to put the learning parts together
Liza Deischer: to examine them
Liza Deischer: toss them around
Maxine Walden: learing through direct experience, perhaps
Zen Arado: might be some 'unlearning'
Wol Euler: we do lot of un-learning actually, largely through experience and observation
Wol Euler: snap :)
Liza Deischer: ture :)
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Liza Deischer: but is stil learning
Aubergine Mint: maybe learning curve in the sense of some aha moments
Wol Euler: oh yes, plenty of those :)
doug Sosa: i wonder about the word "stop" as in "stop and observe." If we stop, we can't observe what we stop. How about just shifting to a more open attitude toward what we ar doing, not "stopping" anything?
Maxine Walden: the open attitude is a very relevant issue, for me as well, doug
Zen Arado: we can't stop the mind anyway
Zen Arado: maybe step back a bit from it
doug Sosa: no, but people often interpret the 9 sec as "stopping in order to observe."
Liza Deischer: for me stop doesn't mean a real stop

Wol offers a way to consider the word 'stop' 

Wol Euler: I think the word "stop" is used here like a micro-koan, to change the way you think about what you are doing
Liza Deischer: it is stopping the mechanical proces
Zen Arado: maybe stopping an activity and looking inwards?
Wol Euler: to make you aware that you *are* actually "doing", not just processing in an inevitable and neutral way
Liza Deischer: the habbit so to speak
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Zen Arado: becoming more conscious
Wol Euler: that these are not given, but are optional and were chosen at one time
doug Sosa: Difficult questions. There is no "in", there is experience, which we can observe more closely.
Eliza Madrigal: what an interesting expression... micro-koan
Wol Euler: a one-word koan, like my favourite response-word "mu", meaning "there is no meaningful answer to the way that you phrased that question."
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: we spend a lot of time looking for answers
Aubergine Mint: have you found any
Zen Arado: tofit reality into neat little packages
Zen Arado: thought I did :)
Aubergine Mint: and
Zen Arado: better to say #I don't know'

Wol offers thoughts about the limits of our responsibility re how others respond to our thoughts...

Wol Euler: well, one really useful answer that I found, is that I am not responsible for what other people think about my words.
Wol Euler: I can try to speak as carefully as possible, to think out what I want to say and to tie up all the loose ends,
Wol Euler: but whether they understand me is not in my hands.
doug Sosa: "fire" in a crowded theater?
Maxine Walden: Each of us may have our own experience; some may experience reality as fitting into neat packages; others that reality is more vast, awesome and that we can only hope go glimpse it...but gratefully so
Wol Euler: yes, right, assume please that neither I nor the people listening to me are psychopaths.
doug Sosa: "te mind is an illusion" in a meditation circle?
Zen Arado: we might be :)
Liza Deischer: what is the answer your looking for aubergine?
Eliza Madrigal nods to Maxine... and two may describe the 'same' thing differently... one in systematic 1,2,3..another in mosaic
Liza Deischer: are you looking for a concrete answer?
Aubergine Mint: not looking for answers, just curious about everything
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: what is the point of studying koans?
Maxine Walden: Trying to pin something down, to get the RIGHT answer is likely to prove elusive; perhaps appreciating all the varieties, perspectives on reality may be closer to our explorations
--BELL--

Another suggestion about observing our experience during the pause, coming just after the bell

Maxine Walden: here comes a pause; let's see what we experience during it and perhaps share such afterwards?
arabella Ella: Hiya
Maxine Walden: hi, Ara, and Mick
Maxine Walden: anyone care to share his or her experience during the 90 sec pause just now?
Wol Euler shivered and did some high-quality coughing (sorry)
Liza Deischer: :)
Maxine Walden: so sorry, Wol...
Zen Arado: I was thinking the whole time sorry

Some thoughts emerge from the pause, initiated by Eliza

Eliza Madrigal considered, during the pause, that when we listen to people we are listening to layered contexts... so openness/empathy was along the lines of pondering...
arabella Ella: so sorry to hear that Wol ... wish u speedy recovery
Maxine Walden: interesting, Eliza, yes...
Zen Arado: nods sympathetically to Wol
Wol Euler: ty
Maxine Walden: silence as privacy perhaps or as openness...
Zen Arado: layered contexts - could you expand on that Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose I was synthesizing Wol's and Maxine's thoughts on how others hear us, how we hear.... how we are looking and what we are looking for...
Eliza Madrigal: how or if we are packaging things and whether we can drop or allow the packaging to unfold...
Zen Arado: you are phenomenologizing :)
Eliza Madrigal: just be open and see, directly
Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps :)
Calvino Rabeni: who you are is part of the contexts also
Eliza Madrigal: but more thinking about resonance.... which we've been talking about...
Eliza Madrigal: yes, nods to Calvino
Eliza Madrigal: what IS empathy and how amazing is it that when we begin to even question our own separateness/smallness there is a kind of hm... donno...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler whispers to Calvino, another paB word for your glossary is "unpacking"
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: if we can be more open we get more resonances from more people
Zen Arado: ?
Eliza Madrigal: What do you think Zen?

And we seem to be wending back to the intellectual considerations 

Zen Arado: I bought a book about phenom and an struggling with it :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, but I really wasn't considering phenom and haven't read a book... but it does relate :)
Mickorod Renard: I think,,like when U stand in the wind,,the resonance is more comfortable if you stand sideways
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about what we *can* experience directly...
Zen Arado: it is all so Zen as well I find
Eliza Madrigal: and empathy may be a phenomenon of experiecing another directly in a sense?
Zen Arado: my teacher ells me to directly experience life
Zen Arado: not intellectualize everything
Zen Arado: which I tend to do :)
Liza Deischer: I have a feeling that you use the word phenomenon in a certaing way?
Wol Euler: hello Eos

Maxine tries again, feeling the relentlessness of her task, which sparks some interest and discussion. Some clarification of the notion of phenomenology is offered.

Maxine Walden: So the possibility to directly experience the next pause may be an interesting exercise...
Zen Arado: Hi Eos
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Liza Deischer: it that is so, can somebody fill me in
Zen Arado: I don't know how to answer that Liza
Eliza Madrigal: Liza, I'm not sure... though I attend the phenom workshop and think about the ideas, my practice has been more about excercizes here like apapb... which today just seemed about empathy...hm :)
Zen Arado: just getting into a big subject of phenomenology
Zen Arado: just spelling it is hard enough :)
Liza Deischer: :)
arabella Ella: it is a huge topic and there are many different approaches to it too
Eliza Madrigal nods
arabella Ella: and different interpretations
Maxine Walden: just to mention anothe pause is coming up...how about our direct experience of it?
Eliza Madrigal nods :)
--BELL--
arabella Ella: but i think in a nutshell it means attempting to perceive just what hits your attention with no interpretation ... as a stream of consciousness
Liza Deischer: ty ara, it clearefies things
Zen Arado: an enlightened person does that I think
Zen Arado: Ara?
arabella Ella: mind you that is a bit simplistic ... but it is a basic idea i hope of phenemo
Calvino Rabeni: more than that - your interpretation is an experience to have in the present also
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, Husserl et al did not claim to be enlighteneted :-)
Zen Arado: direct experience in the present moment
Wol Euler: heh, a valid point Eos.
arabella Ella: i dont think you need to be enlightened Zen to experience phenomenological experience
Aubergine Mint: so there's hope for me
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Wol Euler: of course :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
arabella Ella: it is more like trying to find ways of seeing / perceiving ... and trying to get a more 'scientific'grasp on what or how we can obtain knowledge

It is interesting as I read back on this aspect, that I may have been more wooden in my 'task' and missing the moving reference to 'hope for me' which Liza may have experienced in struggling to understand aspects of phenomenology

Maxine Walden: And what about our direct experience during the last pause?
Wol Euler reaches across and gives your hand a squeeze
Zen Arado: it sounds so similar to what zen teahers describe
Zen Arado: 'knowledge' Ara?
Eos Amaterasu: like the song says, "a bunch of bugs, and watching them too"
Zen Arado: just waht is?
Calvino Rabeni: Perceiving already comes with an intention
Eliza Madrigal hesitates to share pause thoughts because then she has to decide if she's doing phenomenology and if so what that is ...heheh
arabella Ella: knowledge as in epistemology Zen
Zen Arado: yes - we are not passive receptacles
Eos Amaterasu: do share pause thoughts/loss of them
Eliza Madrigal: just being cheeky, don't mind me :)
Eos Amaterasu: the stream of consciousness is gappy, has holes
Zen Arado: just how it struck me Eliza
Wol Euler: did anyone stop thinking? you might tell us about that too.
Zen Arado: I am probably wrong

After Eliza and Eos and Wol offer encouragement about pause thoughts I wonder why it is so difficult to focus on our experiences and the notion of exposure and 'ego' come into view

Maxine Walden: We may be experiencing how much easier it is to talk about things, concepts, questions...than our experiences...wonder why?
Calvino Rabeni: depends on what you mean by thinking, wol
Eliza Madrigal: Noo zen... humor might not translate online... you were astute...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: because that is what we usually do Maxine
Maxine Walden: one element I think is the fear of exposure, when we are uncertain about our experience...what others might say/think, etc
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: ego in other words
Eos Amaterasu: thoughts come and go, strut and go off stage, beyond my stopping them; I have more humor about just letting that happen
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Does anybody remember the japanese /zen word for "self-conscious"
Zen Arado: sorry no
Eos Amaterasu: wu
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Corvi :)
Calvino Rabeni: I mean the one where the self is not transparent
Liza Deischer: corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Zen Arado: but that expression has a different meaning in everyday use
Calvino Rabeni: and gets in the way of seeing other
Zen Arado: Hi Corvi
Eos Amaterasu: I think in general that is fixation
Eos Amaterasu: one self and on other
Eos Amaterasu: one self and on other
Eos Amaterasu: on self and on other
Eos Amaterasu: skip.... skip.... skip....

I have to go but the conversation continues 

Maxine Walden: Have to go, friends, have another meeting...see you all again soon, I hope
Zen Arado: isn't the idea to see through thee illusion of this 'self' we keep constructing?
arabella Ella: bye Maxine
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye Maxine!!!

And then the notion of 'self'

arabella Ella: well Zen ... what is the self?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we construct and deconstruct the self all the time, zen... continually....
Calvino Rabeni: nods to eliza
Eos Amaterasu: "you lose yourself your reappear"
Zen Arado: an illusion we construct from our habits and reactions etc in the past
Calvino Rabeni: more like a "user interface"
Zen Arado: we think it is solid is the problem
Eos Amaterasu: it happens all over us
Eliza Madrigal: like illusion of self might fit illusionary context?
Zen Arado: good metaphor
Zen Arado: Cal
Calvino Rabeni: if you have skills of constructing, deconstructing, it gets somewhat less solid
Calvino Rabeni: as a practical matter
Zen Arado: yes - you start to see through it
Eos Amaterasu: key is the solidity of the watcher, observer
Calvino Rabeni: that is tricky due to identification
Eos Amaterasu: is it you seeing?
Zen Arado: as long as it is not the self coming through the back door Eos
Eos Amaterasu: indeed - shall we try who is seeing?
Eliza Madrigal is up for that
Zen Arado: there is just seeing
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: that's the question

Eos takes up the task of inquiring about the 90 sec pause experiences

Eos Amaterasu: sticking litmus paper into the 90 secs: any reports?
stevenaia Michinaga: WAS REMEMBERING ONCE WEHN I WAS TAKING VIDEOS , SITTING, SEEING my legs in the video while later watching the video playing and how uncomfortable it was not feeling my legs in the video, hence the question who was seeing, me inside me or me watching me inside me seeing
Wol Euler nods
stevenaia Michinaga: it makes much morse sence now
Eos Amaterasu: like avatar identity crisis
Eliza Madrigal: ooh neat
Zen Arado: interesting - there is a scientific experiment where they put video cams on someone elses head and transmit the picture to you - makes you think you are the other person
stevenaia Michinaga: if you ahve a camerqa, an interesting experiement in the senses of seeing
Mickorod Renard: I like the idea that once was put forward,,imaginary true,,but in observing ones self,,perhaps critically but in a warm way,,as if you are observing your own child,,and seeing the frictions
Calvino Rabeni: things are different depending on where you put the camera location relative to the avatar
Mickorod Renard: and so forth,,it looks so diferent than self analizing
Zen Arado: in RL Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, infact I was videoing my child
stevenaia Michinaga: who was intereacting with me
Zen Arado: makes you realize how tenuous our perception of self is
Calvino Rabeni: If you put the SL camera right behind someone else's avatar it has an effect on following that other
stevenaia Michinaga: re CAL, I rarely use "mouseview" in sl
Wol Euler: my dears, I must go. Too tired, too shivery. Goodnight all, I hope to see you tomorrow.
Eliza Madrigal: yes it took me a while to know what was going on when someone would stand and my camera would follow
Calvino Rabeni: Especially if you can't identify with their Point of view
Eliza Madrigal: Night Wol, feel better :))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night, Wol.
Zen Arado: take care Wol
stevenaia Michinaga: be well dear Wol
Aubergine Mint: feel better!
Calvino Rabeni: Night get well wol
Wol Euler: ty :) I appreciate that
arabella Ella: nite Wol hope u get better soon
Liza Deischer: get well wol, see you
Mickorod Renard: nite wiol
Eliza Madrigal: for the last week or so, and strongly during the last pause I thought of Suzuki talking about *I* as a swinging door... listened to breath.. etc
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that fits with construction/deconstruction too...
Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: and maybe with rocking a child... to consider Mick's image :)
Zen Arado: the breathes us :)
Zen Arado: the breath breathes us rather
Mickorod Renard: we put barriers up due to the tenseness of our circumstances,,but by practicing dropping,,we can flavour a more calmer and relaxed feeling,,which in turn alows a clarity to our thoughts
Zen Arado: nearly got it right :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: I find this can then be built upon
Eos Amaterasu: stuff on both sides of the swinging door does its stuff
Calvino Rabeni: there are different states of mind available after dropping
Calvino Rabeni: I kind of innocent state of mind - bodhicitta
Calvino Rabeni: Or something like that - trying to avoid definitions here :)
Zen Arado: letting go of my thinking crafty scheming egoic mind
Eliza Madrigal: and answers? :)
Calvino Rabeni: You know how, when you have a fixation, and then let go of it
Calvino Rabeni: And then there's a more innocent you, maybe a more compassionate one
Eos Amaterasu: momentary gap, or gasp, or humour, or non--plussedness
Zen Arado: and of thinking that things should be a certain way
Calvino Rabeni: with a brighter emotional tone
--BELL--
Zen Arado: our always thinking clouds our perceptions
Eliza Madrigal: Stim said in a session here that sometimes letting go means holding in a different way... so relaxing it...
Mickorod Renard: I noticed something a while back
Eos Amaterasu: your own emotionality is less censored
Mickorod Renard: oops
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes someone will say 'let go' and the instinctual response is 'go where?'
Zen Arado: yes :)
Zen Arado: drop what
Eos Amaterasu: "HOLD openness"
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)!!!!
stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t that a paradox
Eliza Madrigal: Mick, what did you notice?
Liza Deischer: bye al of u
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Liza :)
Mickorod Renard: I once noticed how pent up I was over something,,that seemed so important,,it worried me for weeks,,then, without noticing,,something else came along that just took away my thoughts over the worrying issue,,it just became nothing,,
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Liza
Zen Arado: bye Liza
arabella Ella: bye Liza
Mickorod Renard: bye liza
Eliza Madrigal: And did you think 'why didn't i just do that in the first place?"
Eos Amaterasu: When you're really strongly overcome by an emotion is the best time to "practice" - keep at least a peek of awareness going
Zen Arado: if we haven't any big worries we seem to magnify the small ones :)
Eos Amaterasu: realize that that big strong thing is not so continuous and solid
Eos Amaterasu: it's even embarrassing, because you take your emotion so seriously
Calvino Rabeni: What happened, Mick, allowing that change you mentioned
Eos Amaterasu: and then a little gap laughs at you
Eliza Madrigal nods and smiles @ Eos
Zen Arado: yes Eos
Mickorod Renard: well,,I think I attached to another worry,,,he he ,,but it emphasises the point,,its all created in the mind
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps Big mind took Little mind under its wing :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) aw..
Calvino Rabeni: Awareness can provide that
Eliza Madrigal: Being Seeing :)
Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle says you have 3 options to a bad situation - change it, remove yourself from it or accept it fully
Mickorod Renard: that sounds good Zen
Eos Amaterasu: probably 1 or 2 will flow from 3
Zen Arado: but we prefer to just ruminate and worry passively
Mickorod Renard: a fourth exists
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: yes Mick?
Eos Amaterasu perks ears
Mickorod Renard: carry on killing yourself
stevenaia Michinaga: dinner awaits, bye all
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Eliza Madrigal: sigh... waits for Corvi to throw a pillow at Mick
Mickorod Renard: bye Steve
Zen Arado: Bye Steve
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steve :)
arabella Ella: bye Steve
Calvino Rabeni: Mick has a point
Calvino Rabeni: Never let your suffering go to waste :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: getting late
Zen Arado: I better go
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, I should go too... empty house to wander in... hehe
Zen Arado: thanks for discussion
Zen Arado: bye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen
Eos Amaterasu: ciao!
Mickorod Renard: well,,it shouldnt be an option,,but its an option we often opt for,,worry and more worry
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Everyone :) Thanks
Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all for the talk -
Calvino Rabeni: I have somewhere to go also
arabella Ella: i must go too
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
arabella Ella: bye all ... nite!
Eos Amaterasu: Dinner needs to be "fixed" :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye zen, eos, arabella
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess I will go too.
Eos Amaterasu: Bye corvi, mick, ara
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone whos going or gone
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Mick