2009.12.17 13:00 - emptiness = fullness

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lia
Lia Rikugun: hello yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: i hope you´re fine ?
Lia Rikugun: I am good thank you and you?

Yakuzza Lethecus: jep, i am good right now :)
Lia Rikugun: :) thats good
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wester
Lia Rikugun: concentrating on the now ;)
Lia Rikugun: hello wester
Wester Kiranov: hi yaku, lia
Yakuzza Lethecus: that doesn´t work for me that often :)
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: do you think verbally ?
Wester Kiranov: what were you talking about?
Lia Rikugun: :) yes, I am trying to concentrate on the now often
Lia Rikugun: but most of the time i am forgetting :)
Lia Rikugun: thinking about what I have to do in the future and and and
Yakuzza Lethecus: i do that often in a non constructive way, more like an blind grasping for something sensefull but now even knowing what it is and that even in language
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i understand yakuzza
Lia Rikugun: hello liza
Liza Deischer: hi all
Wester Kiranov: hi liza
Wester Kiranov: liza - Nice to meet you :) Have you been here before?
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: so I know the rules
Wester Kiranov: good
Lia Rikugun: :)
Liza Deischer: hi pema
Lia Rikugun: oh hi Pema!
Wester Kiranov: Hi pema
Pema Pera: Hi Wester, Liza, Liza, Yakuzza!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya pema :)
Lia Rikugun: we talked a little bit about 'now'
Pema Pera: great topic!
Lia Rikugun: because yakuzza said he was feeling good now
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Lia Rikugun: so I said that concentrating on the now is somehow a challenge
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: for me at least
Pema Pera: in what way, Lia?
Lia Rikugun: there are always things which will happen in the future or which happened in the past and of what I am still thinking of
Lia Rikugun: even though this might be waisting the time
Lia Rikugun: or not appreciating what is happening right now around me

Pema Pera: how about reminding yourself that all memories and expectations that you have are occuring in the now? In fact, everything you deal with is happening now, even though you think you're dwelling elsewhere -- would that help, you think?
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
Wester Kiranov: pema - you say exacltly what i was thinking except you say it clearer :)
Lia Rikugun: yes but what if I am thinking of a memory which I have now but which takes place 5 years ago for example
Wester Kiranov: hi calvino
Lia Rikugun: would this be considered as living in the now?
Lia Rikugun: hello calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Greetings, everyone :)
Liza Deischer: I think it is more the attitude you take towards the memory
Pema Pera: if you only focus on the content, you forget about the now, but if you see both the content (the past) and the time at which the content presents itself (the now) you can have your cake and eat it :)
Lia Rikugun: ok
Liza Deischer: you can look at it from the now
Pema Pera: as Liza said, yes
Liza Deischer: and you can dwell in the past
Pema Pera: a memory is like an ad on tv -- you don't have to buy into it
Pema Pera: you can still see it's manufactured in the now
Wester Kiranov: :)
Lia Rikugun: so you are saying by living in the now it is 'ok' to rethink about the past even though I could appreceate what is happening right now around me
Pema Pera: sure!
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: ok
Pema Pera: and you can appreciate the presence of the appearance of the memories
Lia Rikugun: wonderful!
Calvino Rabeni: a memory might be like a story you tell yourself about who you are now could have been then
Pema Pera: "appreciating the presence of what appears" is a way of not buying into the messages that are carried by what appears
Wester Kiranov: hi aubergine
Pema Pera: hi Aubergine!
Aubergine Mint: hi everyone
Liza Deischer: hi aubergine
Lia Rikugun: hi aubergine
Wester Kiranov: I like your name :)
Aubergine Mint: me?
Wester Kiranov: yep - it goes well together
Liza Deischer: :)
Aubergine Mint: ty!
--BELL--

Liza Deischer: but I think that if you let your memories distract you form the precense
Liza Deischer: youre no longer in the now
Pema Pera: yes, so the trick is to not let yourself be blinded by the story alone, as Calvino also said
Pema Pera: but you don't have to ignore the story either
Pema Pera: you can have it both
Aubergine Mint: don't we use our memories toconstruct the present?
Pema Pera: usually, yes, I think so
Liza Deischer: nice question
Wester Kiranov: I think we use our memories to ignore the present, often
Pema Pera: :)
Liza Deischer: yes en maybe even think that the memories can tell us something about the future
Liza Deischer: *and (i was going Dutch)
Pema Pera: generally we see the present through the lens of the past, as Aubergine pointed out -- and one challenge is to explore in how far we can avoid that
Lia Rikugun: this is really challenging
Lia Rikugun: to meet yourself new every day
Lia Rikugun: or other people
Pema Pera: or every moment :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Pema Pera: the whole world
Liza Deischer: :)
Lia Rikugun: well I am not so far yet
Pema Pera: are you sure, Lia?
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Pema Pera: seriously!
Wester Kiranov: you can take one moment at the time
Calvino Rabeni: agree, but not just those things. We construct the past also. And the constructing is not out of nothing, it is partly discovering what is there and meeting it.
Lia Rikugun: i would need to concentrate each moment to see it new
Lia Rikugun: i am not always thinking of this
Pema Pera: perhaps you're doing it and yet not acknowledging it to yourself
Pema Pera: forcing it would help
Lia Rikugun: haha :)
Pema Pera: recognizing it is the only way, I think
Aubergine Mint: seems to me that our subconscious memories are not within our conscious controls
Lia Rikugun: do you think there is a possibility that you might go back to less live in the moment? pema
Liza Deischer: hi betram, emota
Pema Pera: yes, Calvino, on the conventional level that's what we do -- but perhaps we can completely bypass that in some way
Lia Rikugun: hello emota
Emota Lovett: Hey everyone
Lia Rikugun: hello bertram
Wester Kiranov: hi emota, bertram
Pema Pera: hi Bert!
Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody ... :-)
Pema Pera: I fall back every moment, Lia, but often quickly realize that -- it's an oscillation in a way
Bertram Jacobus: sry - didn´t want to interrupt the consertvation ...
Bertram Jacobus: conversation*

Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we have to live life considering knowledge as something constructed by looking at a vanishingly small keyhole called the present
Liza Deischer: what do you mean with bypassing it
Lia Rikugun: maybe the question was not correct, because if you realize you can see each moment new you can start doing this now :)
Wester Kiranov: but the now is not a vanishingly small keyhole, it is all (@cal)
Pema Pera: agreed, Calvino! the present I was talking about is more like a fourth (zeroeth) time
Pema Pera: yes, Wester
Calvino Rabeni: ah
Pema Pera: you can, Lia, you do already
Calvino Rabeni: yes, now has eternity and all, if I get your drift
Pema Pera: with bypassing, Liza, I mean that you can look away from the movie to see the projector, bypassing the logic of the movie -- though yuo don't have to forget or ignore the movie story
Calvino Rabeni: the greater present moment
Pema Pera: yes, timeless time
Pema Pera: not linear past-present-future time
Pema Pera: well hi Isen ! ! ! !
Pema Pera: long time no see ! ! !
Lia Rikugun: hello Isen
Wester Kiranov: hi isen
Liza Deischer: ok, I understand
Pema Pera: welcome!
Liza Deischer: hi Isen
Isen Enzo: oo/ga
Isen Enzo: oop
Isen Enzo: Hello everyone
Bertram Jacobus: hello isen ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi isen
Wester Kiranov: brb
Pema Pera: Lia, the difference I was trying to point to is the difference between trying to reach for something (enligtenment, say) or acknowledging that there is nothing to get, that all is already (here, now, in the broadest sense)
Lia Rikugun: yes i understand
Pema Pera: How's life, Isen?
Lia Rikugun: so simple but somehow not :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Isen Enzo: Life is good!!
Pema Pera: try it, you'll like it, Lia :)
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: am trying
Pema Pera: you can start with "I am trying" and then you drop "trying" and "I" :-)
Lia Rikugun: am
Lia Rikugun: :P
Lia Rikugun: ok just joking
Pema Pera: nono!
Wester Kiranov: back
Liza Deischer: I wouldn't be surprosed of you'll find no time there (referring to a previous discussion)
Pema Pera: that's it -- it's all a joke -- as Isen will testify to, right?

Bertram Jacobus: a joke ? nobody feels pain ?
Pema Pera: that's the challenge, to work with that, Bert . . . . emptiness and form, and see both sides
Wester Kiranov: hey mickey
Pema Pera: to find compassion without stickiness
Pema Pera: hi Mick!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick :)
Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) mick ! ... :-)
Liza Deischer: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bertram Jacobus: i know all these theories ... and feel different, nevertheless
Pema Pera: it's not easy to get a working sense for "form is emptiness and emptiness is form"
Lia Rikugun: I am still wondering about the joke
Lia Rikugun: what would this mean
Lia Rikugun: can you put this in words
Lia Rikugun: ?
Liza Deischer: maybe experiment is a better word?
Pema Pera: the joke is what Bertold Brecht said: everybody is running after happiness, but happiness is running at the end of the line, trying to catch up with us

Aubergine Mint: what do you mean by emptiness?
Wester Kiranov: I think the question mark is a pretty good way of putting it into words
Lia Rikugun: :)
Pema Pera: emptiness is a big topic . . . anybody?
Isen Enzo: well...
Pema Pera: yes, Isen?
Bertram Jacobus: the dalai lama explained only a few weeks ago, that emptiness would simply mean no inhearent being ...
Isen Enzo: emptiness is sometimes also kinda it's opposite...
Isen Enzo: I mean..
Wester Kiranov: as always...
Isen Enzo: emptiness as in nothing has a seperate self
Isen Enzo: an independent self
Isen Enzo: makes emptiness a total connectedness
Lia Rikugun: emptiness=fullness
Isen Enzo: so to speak
Lia Rikugun: ?
Isen Enzo: yes
Lia Rikugun: white=black
Isen Enzo: all things are interdependent

Isen Enzo: nothingstands alone
Isen Enzo: hm
Aubergine Mint: thank you!
Isen Enzo: Isn't there some childs sond about somethingstanding alone...
Isen Enzo: ??
Isen Enzo: song
Bertram Jacobus: may be. why do you ask ?
Isen Enzo: just came to my mind..
Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. i see ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: I was just trying to think of another way of looking at it..although it may be wrong
Bertram Jacobus: how ?
Bertram Jacobus: in which way ?
Calvino Rabeni: Isen, if you like to know - it is the Cheese that stands alone.
Mickorod Renard: like being drfted into a play,halfway through,knowing the story but just starting at the present
Mickorod Renard: sort of gives you a clean sheet
Isen Enzo: Yes- the cheese stands alone!!
Isen Enzo: But nothing stands alone
Isen Enzo: the cheese needs a cow
Isen Enzo: the cow needs grass
Isen Enzo: the grass needs water
Isen Enzo: etc
Calvino Rabeni: and the cheese was eaten by the rat
Isen Enzo: nothing stands alone
Aubergine Mint: we are all in and of the universe
Isen Enzo: Tich Nhat Hahn talks about a sheet of paper
Isen Enzo: not blank
Isen Enzo: sez a poet can see clouds in the paper
Isen Enzo: because the paper needed so much
Isen Enzo: to be paper
Isen Enzo: a tree, water, clouds, etc
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: yh
Liza Deischer: that is indeed a very nice story form Tich Nhat Hahn
Liza Deischer: it opened my eyes
Isen Enzo: anyhow that's how I understand "emptiness" as it seems to be referenced in Zen
Isen Enzo: things are empty of a seperate self
Isen Enzo: so it's really a kind of fullness
Lia Rikugun: emptiness by itself but fullness by everything interconnected
Isen Enzo: yes
Isen Enzo: another of those kinda goofy 'zen' concepts
Lia Rikugun: :)
Liza Deischer: and buddhism in general
Isen Enzo: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Wonders if Pema's movie theater uses the screen to symbolize emptiness
Bertram Jacobus: (thich nhat hanh) ... :o)
Pema Pera: in some sense -- every metaphor is limited though
Isen Enzo: yes

Wester Kiranov: So - how and why did we forget we are all one?
Isen Enzo: donno
Calvino Rabeni: Someone talked us into it
Wester Kiranov: My theory is that it's so Being can enjoy a nice game of chess - or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Aubergine Mint: too much emphasis on the individual
Calvino Rabeni: It is a fashion
Calvino Rabeni: It is handy for getting certain things done
Bertram Jacobus: may be we didn´t forget but we never knew before
Pema Pera: maybe there is no "us" :)
Calvino Rabeni: Or "I"
Wester Kiranov: probably :)
Pema Pera: though there is the appearance of us
Pema Pera: or at least the presence of the appearance
Calvino Rabeni: the presence of the appearance of the presence of "I"
Lia Rikugun: who is it appearing to?
Liza Deischer: :)
Aubergine Mint: virtual us
Lia Rikugun: ahh endless loop..
Calvino Rabeni: that explains a lot of things
Mickorod Renard: but is there a concious audience that we need to feel so observed by?
Liza Deischer: maybe that is I or us

Calvino Rabeni: How many identify with the term "inner critic"? and /or the feeling of being closely watched?
Isen Enzo: in Zazen we have a LOT of internal voices...
Isen Enzo: the critic
Wester Kiranov: :D
Isen Enzo: the coach
Isen Enzo: the kvetch
Lia Rikugun: kvetch?
Pema Pera quietly sneaking out, RL calling
Lia Rikugun: bye pema
Wester Kiranov: bye pema
Liza Deischer: bye pema
Isen Enzo: bye Pema
Aubergine Mint: bye
Calvino Rabeni: Is that traditional zazen? Or did Genpo Roshi develop it more?
Isen Enzo: _/!\_
Pema Pera: thanks all, for the fun chats!
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Isen Enzo: trad zazen we try to let stuff float through our mids
Isen Enzo: minds
Mickorod Renard: I think I am becoming less concerned with what people think of me,,some because I feel I am acting more correct now,,and in another way in that it shouldnt bother me anyway even if they are watching me
Lia Rikugun: kvetch = complain ok sorry my bad english
Isen Enzo: but often we comment on our own experience
Isen Enzo: internally
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

Isen Enzo: 'monkey mind' sorta stuff
Mickorod Renard: he he
Calvino Rabeni: not a fan of the monkey mind idea
Isen Enzo: 'wandering mind'
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Aubergine Mint: what is the monkey mind?
Lia Rikugun: good night yakuzza
Isen Enzo: Bye Yak
Calvino Rabeni: let all the universe's voices have their say
Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku,,I need to get to Wok now
Isen Enzo: 'monkey mind' is the mind that jumps from one thing to another
Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
Isen Enzo: endlessly
Mickorod Renard: nite to you all,,byeeeee
Lia Rikugun: bye mick
Isen Enzo: a nother metaphor
Liza Deischer: bye mick
Wester Kiranov: I think I'll go to WoK too.
Isen Enzo: see you Mick
Wester Kiranov: bye
Bertram Jacobus: nighty nite ...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what isthe lesson of that metaphor?
Lia Rikugun: ways of knowling
Isen Enzo: All over now?
Lia Rikugun: knowing
Liza Deischer: bye bert
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I will go to WOK too shortly...
Bertram Jacobus: bye and thanxx all
Isen Enzo: ah- well 'monkey mind' describes a wandering mind...
Mickorod Renard: gosh,,my pc is slow
Isen Enzo: unfocussed
Liza Deischer: bye Cal
Isen Enzo: scattered
Calvino Rabeni: I get the feeling that it is considerede problematical in some way
--BELL--
pablito Steampunk: hello
Lia Rikugun: hello pablito
Liza Deischer: hi pablito
Lia Rikugun: we just had a 90 seconds 'break'
Aubergine Mint: Bye all
Lia Rikugun: bye aubergine
Liza Deischer: bye aubergine
Isen Enzo: Bye aub
Isen Enzo: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Got to go, take care all.
pablito Steampunk: _/!\_
Aubergine Mint: thanks Isen for your thoughts!
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Liza Deischer: bi cal
Lia Rikugun: bye cal
Lia Rikugun: isen thank you so much for sharing everythng with us
Mila Greene: hey :)
Lia Rikugun: i think it was evry interesting and definitely I will need to continue thinking about that
Isen Enzo: Always a pleasure to give others the benifit of my opinion!
Lia Rikugun: I will have to leave too
Emota Lovett: sorry I didn't contribute much Rl kept interrupting
Isen Enzo: RL happens
Emota Lovett: this is a lovely place btw
Lia Rikugun: :)
Isen Enzo: Yes nice digs
pablito Steampunk: yes, rl interference patterns :)
Lia Rikugun: so you all take care!
Emota Lovett: bye lia
Mila Greene: gah, i'm late :)
Lia Rikugun: byebye
pablito Steampunk: bye bye