2009.12.28 19:00 - attention and autopoiesis

The Guardian for this meeting was Fox Monacular. The comments are by Fox Monacular.  Calvino edited the Tao story a little for historical accuracy.

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Eos Amaterasu: HI Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: ah, now rezzed
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see a friendly face. How are you? :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug :)
doug Sosa: sorry to be late, just finished dinner.
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all. I just arrived also
Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug
doug Sosa: I find it hard to figure out when to come.
doug Sosa: but being wiht you two is great.
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks!
Eliza Madrigal: So I suppose any topic is up for grabs tonight. What are we thinking about?
Eliza Madrigal: Might notice the pause approaching...
Eos Amaterasu: oh yes: go for it , Eliza!
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: So let's just pay attention
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cal
doug Sosa: hi.
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Eliza, Eos, Doug
Eos Amaterasu: "just attending" is highly charged, energetic, going nowhere
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, go on?
Eos Amaterasu: going nowhere :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Eos Amaterasu: just attending
Eliza Madrigal: For me yes I felt very 'alert' to noises in the house, and to the sounds in SL...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and to the warmth on my face
doug Sosa: when you sked what are we thinking about.. sex, money, politics, fod, children's faces, three dogs in the house on christmas, emails that were complex..
doug Sosa: and the snow here, and feeling, well, t shirt and ice but then in rl i've a seater on, so the cues are confusing.
Eliza Madrigal: you're aware of a lot, but are you thinking about all those things?
doug Sosa: no, they fill the sapce of... consciousness?
Eos Amaterasu: the 10,000 things....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: but you don't necessarily call that "thinking"...
doug Sosa: nope, not thinking, just letting them be.
Eos Amaterasu: they are constantly dropping anyway
Eos Amaterasu: that's why there's so many :-)
Eos Amaterasu: things rush in
Eliza Madrigal: popping up and dropping away
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Wol
Calvino Rabeni: When things "show up", I think of that as "thinking"
doug Sosa: hi.
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Wol
Eos Amaterasu: "I'm not really here - I just stick around for my friends" - Captain Beefheart
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: If I consider something... or have a few thoughts about something... then I classify that as thinking, I think...
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: same here, but I think of their showing up as "a thought"
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sure I can see that too
Calvino Rabeni: after all this conversation, the notion of "thinking" is still wobbly :)
doug Sosa: thinking is a process of engagement with more than the first step.
Eliza Madrigal: We seem to think so ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, but lots went on before the first step
Calvino Rabeni: already engaged
Calvino Rabeni: already thought
Fox Monacular: Hi everyone, sorry I'm so late
Wol Euler: hello fox
doug Sosa: now we are thinking :)
Eos Amaterasu: there's both "original thinking", and "orchestrations of thinking"
Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Fox, we're thinking about thinkig
Fox Monacular: baby just fell asleep....
doug Sosa: ah fox.
Fox Monacular: thinking about thinking?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :) Good to see you
Calvino Rabeni: so it seems yes
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fox, (& nod to baby)
Fox Monacular: there's a song by Peter Hammill from van der graa generator
Eliza Madrigal: Here, for Fox and Wol: [19:19] doug Sosa: when you sked what are we thinking about.. sex, money, politics, fod, children's faces, three dogs in the house on christmas, emails that were complex.. [19:19] doug Sosa: and the snow here, and feeling, well, t shirt and ice but then in rl i've a seater on, so the cues are confusing. [19:19] Wol Euler is Online [19:20] Eliza Madrigal: you're aware of a lot, but are you thinking about all those things? [19:20] doug Sosa: no, they fill the sapce of... consciousness? [19:20] Eos Amaterasu: the 10,000 things.... [19:20] Eliza Madrigal: :) [19:20] Calvino Rabeni: but you don't necessarily call that "thinking"... [19:21] doug Sosa: nope, not thinking, just letting them be.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sorry Fox. What was the song?
Wol Euler: 10k things indeed
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: song by Peter Hammill... there were words "I was thinking about thinking but it didn't really get me very far"
Eos Amaterasu: "just letting them be"
Fox Monacular: letting thoughts be... not so easy!
Eliza Madrigal: there were noises during the pause I could have found annoying, and I didn't notice myself making a decision not to, but I guess I did :)
Eliza Madrigal: so yes it is like pre-thinking?
Eos Amaterasu: sound, annoyance at sound, & watching that too
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Calvino Rabeni: what is that activity called "pre-thinking"?
Eliza Madrigal: but as soon, or just as, I notice the annoyance, it isn't
doug Sosa: still so interesting to me, none of you mention each other but your presence is the biggest part for me.
Eos Amaterasu: if you touch something it poofs
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: hm... am considering that doug. I think I was more aware before the pause and then I kind of settle into the space between/through us in a way and 'just see'...
Calvino Rabeni: epoche, suspended
Eliza Madrigal: aware of us as individuals, I mean
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes I get a strong sense of such a 90 sec being shared across individuals and distance around the globe,
Wol Euler smiles
Eos Amaterasu: particular yous
Eos Amaterasu: but can u say more, doug?
doug Sosa: italo calvino, foxy, two sexy? madrigals and eos the horseman (equestrian).
Eos Amaterasu muses, horse's tail?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... not sure :) I have, in the last few days though... asked myself to notice how I was feeling... what kind of presence, I guess, and then to notice just sitting at pab... see if I could pick up distinctions... in a way
Eliza Madrigal: Its a hard thing to describe
Eliza Madrigal: but it is certainly true that there's not much distance
doug Sosa: between..?
Eliza Madrigal: between people... that it seems we are where our attention is
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: seems like a very obvious thing to say
Eos Amaterasu: so when we share suspended attention...
Eliza Madrigal: but a funny thing when you notice it, yes Eos :)
Calvino Rabeni: General question- what is the thing you are puzzling over or trying to find distinctions in, lately ?
Eos Amaterasu: between the 90 secs we share each other
Fox Monacular: I agree with you, Eliza, we are where our attention is and perhaps a little what out attention is at
Eliza Madrigal: what a lovely thought Eos
Eliza Madrigal: and hm... thinking :)
Eos Amaterasu: doug & cal & fox & wol & eliza & eos
Eos Amaterasu: and in the 90 secs?
--BELL--
doug Sosa: one way to put it is, we are not good at noticing what we in fact are noticing.
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Wol Euler: heheeh
Calvino Rabeni: because of not present with the noticing
Eos Amaterasu: Allen Ginsberg's advice to poets: "notice what you notice"
doug Sosa: it stopped snowing/
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: so is it worth some kind of persistent attention?
Fox Monacular: brb
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes you can notice that you started hearing something a few seconds before you started noticing that you heard it
Calvino Rabeni: do people think so and then not go after it?
Calvino Rabeni: Or go after it
Eliza Madrigal: subtlety develops
Eliza Madrigal: Like...
Eliza Madrigal: "What am I projecting and making into a pattern?" vs. "What is appearing for me to appreciate a pattern in?"
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eliza Madrigal: imposing meaning, etc
Eos Amaterasu: autopoiesis.....
Calvino Rabeni: the layers form pretty quickly - some having been there already
Calvino Rabeni: the professionals seem confused about this also
Wol Euler looks up autopoiesis
Eliza Madrigal: I was looking at that book today, but it was pricey :)
Eos Amaterasu: re applied play as being, exposing how the layers form, autopoietically, is one possible effect of PaB
Calvino Rabeni: "improve your improv"
Wol Euler laughs.
Eos Amaterasu: how organism & environment structurally couple, yes (autopoiesis)
Wol Euler: ty
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes ... how the layers form... what is there and what is brought to what is there?
Calvino Rabeni: I think it would be a lot easier for those professionals, if they would just give up the "single self" idea
Eos Amaterasu: yes, not that we can avoid that, but we can notice.....
Calvino Rabeni: They wouldn't have to keep puzzling over "which came first"
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders if self appears cryptic
doug Sosa: if we were more life and human oriented and wore our special skills less like military univorms.
Calvino Rabeni: yes yes
doug Sosa: uniforms..
Eliza Madrigal: So we notice... become more sensitive... responsive.. then we hope environmet(s) respond in kind...
Calvino Rabeni: "badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges"
doug Sosa: I imagaine inviting people to a discussion of love and they say "what can i contribute, its not my specialty."
Calvino Rabeni: And I think that works, Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: as I hope, does dreaming :)
Eos Amaterasu: "more life and human oriented" : what / how
Calvino Rabeni: Practice "simple saying" ?
Calvino Rabeni: There is a very positive power of "assuming"
doug Sosa: make people more central and spcialty knolwedge go but like a good knife in the kitchen - stays there.
Calvino Rabeni: Don't take the philosophers caution and suspicion about it
doug Sosa: go= good
Fox Monacular: back now
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Yes doug like that
doug Sosa: quietly bye.
Wol Euler: bye doug
Eliza Madrigal: Well, in talking about love people have all kinds of fluffy notions... so what about 'love born of wisdom rather than emotion'... intentional...
Calvino Rabeni: compassion is not a "feeling"
Eliza Madrigal: love skills, compassion tricks, mindfulness tools, etc :)
Calvino Rabeni: and not "inside"
Calvino Rabeni: and not a "private experience"
Calvino Rabeni: I liked doug's knife metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: Notices some talk is like carving things up
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Distinctions can be that way
Calvino Rabeni: Remember's chuang tzu story about carving an ox
Eliza Madrigal doesn't know that, go on?
Fox Monacular: tell us the story?
Calvino Rabeni: Beautiful little taoist story
Calvino Rabeni: The prince had a cook in his kitchen
Calvino Rabeni: He went to visit one day
Calvino Rabeni: The man was carving an ox
Calvino Rabeni: It was a sight to behold.  He made it look so easy
Calvino Rabeni: The prince asked for the secret of his mastery.  What is your method? he asked.
Calvino Rabeni: The ox cutter says - method?  I have no method.

Calvino Rabeni: When I first started, I would see the whole ox as a mass.  After three years, I no longer saw the mass - I saw the distinctions.  Now, though, I see nothing!
Calvino Rabeni: bad cooks hack - their knives get dull in a week

Calvino Rabeni: good cooks chop - their knives get dull in a month
Calvino Rabeni: I've used this same knife for nineteen years
Calvino Rabeni: and never sharpened it once.  Its edge is as good as the day I got it.
Calvino Rabeni: I approach the ox slowly, and let the knife find its own way.
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, there are tough joints.  When I feel them coming, I slow down, watch closely, hold back, barely move, and suddenly, the joints fall apart just like that!

Calvino Rabeni: And when it is done,
Calvino Rabeni: I stand still
Calvino Rabeni: and let the joy of the work sink in.

Calvino Rabeni: The prince marveled - my cook has shown me how to live my life!
Calvino Rabeni: (end of story)
Eliza Madrigal: :) find its own way... nice. Thank you Calvino :)
Calvino Rabeni: Wu Wei story - cuts with the grain, not against
Calvino Rabeni: yes,
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: I especially like the very end of the story
Fox Monacular: yes, i remember the story now,,, power of empty spaces
Calvino Rabeni: see it is like the bilical genesis story
Eliza Madrigal: standing back into the empty space?
Calvino Rabeni: created, yes, then "saw that it was good"
Calvino Rabeni: the beholding at the end is especially important
Fox Monacular: I have to go, awoken cranky toddler calls...
Wol Euler: oops :)
Wol Euler: bye fox, take care
Fox Monacular: have a good evening everyone!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh =/ Nice to see you for a bit Fox
Eliza Madrigal: You too
Eos Amaterasu: gate, likewise.... bye
Fox Monacular: :) great to see you all
Eliza Madrigal: And Bye Eos :) Night!
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, fox
Wol Euler: bye eos, goodnight
Calvino Rabeni: And eos
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, synthesizing all the ideas brought up tonight....
Calvino Rabeni: cooking, simmering slowly ...
Wol Euler: I too must get to bed, falling asleep at the wheel here.
Wol Euler: goodnight, dear friends
Calvino Rabeni: Night, Wol
Eliza Madrigal: :) Night Wol, neat to see you at a session at this time
Wol Euler: yeah, it's for a limited time only :)
Wol Euler: bfn
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bfn
Eliza Madrigal: And yes Cal, cooking is a great analogy... standing back and noticing the aromas
Eliza Madrigal: Such potential
Calvino Rabeni: they waft around the house
Eliza Madrigal: yes ... and there is a delicate balance to seasonings...
Eliza Madrigal: I may like lots of dill weed... which may offend someone else's ideas of a good dish. hah
Calvino Rabeni: The frequent meetings stir the pot
Calvino Rabeni: The soup is together-yet-separate
Eliza Madrigal: yes when well composed
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Nice when we all bring our attention to the meetings. This was fun, thanks :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I little different this time
Eliza Madrigal: the rhythm you mean?
Calvino Rabeni: Not the rhythm, but a flavor of more inner attention showing up
Eliza Madrigal: mm, yes
Eliza Madrigal: It is always a funny thing to me that people discuss the presence part of the equation so little... I guess some more than others...
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I see accurately, but sometimes it feels there is more presence and the expressions come from it more directly
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I think the same as that
Calvino Rabeni: and it think it's worth talking about
Calvino Rabeni: and why it is not?
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe we worry...
Eliza Madrigal: that in discussing we dissipate or...
Eliza Madrigal: try to grasp
Eliza Madrigal: but I think there is a way to just appreciate ...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that seems part of it, surely
Eliza Madrigal: and seems what we are learning certainly
Calvino Rabeni: People are probably right to treat it delicately, at first
Eliza Madrigal: well maybe always?
Calvino Rabeni: however, it can go beyond that I think
Calvino Rabeni: well, for an analogy, the enso practice in zen calligraphy
Eliza Madrigal: yes?
Calvino Rabeni: you know about that, yes?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, we talked about that earlier today a bit
Calvino Rabeni: Right you were there also
Calvino Rabeni: So they meditate, but they have an outer practice
Calvino Rabeni: the idea is once the brush is started, it must be completed
Calvino Rabeni: there is no halfway, no holding back
Eliza Madrigal nods
Calvino Rabeni: and the beauty is, when the stroke, is a complete expression of the self
Eliza Madrigal: in the outer practice the inner practice is seen...
Calvino Rabeni: but usually it doesn't work, of course
Calvino Rabeni: Yet, they do it again, and again, and again
Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes .... :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: But if they never tried - their realization would never be tested, never complete
Calvino Rabeni: It's not meant to be impossible, of course
Calvino Rabeni: Each time, with complete concentration and belief
Calvino Rabeni: not , "it will probably not work this time"
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: My teacher would say - if you go for it, it will likely fail - if you don't go for it, it will surely fail. Your choice.
Eliza Madrigal: and finally they succeed in fading/stepping back enough for Being to be present :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what sort of study, if I may ask?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it reflected and embodied Being
Calvino Rabeni: He was a teacher of tai chi, contemplation, internal martial arts
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
Calvino Rabeni: Big on the contemplation part.
Calvino Rabeni: The rest was externals, like the brush and ink of enso
Eliza Madrigal: Iceberg principle :)
Calvino Rabeni: So the real teacher is not a painting teacher, exactly
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I think there is real soup nearby, - so I will slip out during this pause
Eliza Madrigal: Night Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Eliza, good night :)