2009.12.23 13:00 - Inner guides

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

 

Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) zon ! ;-)

Zon Quar: quiet

Bertram Jacobus: yes. nice :-)

Zon Quar: hehe

Zon Quar: xmas peace is coming closer

Bertram Jacobus: one day before christmas

Bertram Jacobus: similar thoughts ...

Bertram Jacobus: i never had a chance to ask before : where do you live ? :-)

Zon Quar: finland. and u ?

Bertram Jacobus: germany, cologne :-)

Zon Quar: ah been there once

Bertram Jacobus: oh. nice :-)

Zon Quar: seen the cathetrhral

Bertram Jacobus: number one for all visitors in cologne ... ;-)

Zon Quar: yes

Zon Quar: very impressive

Bertram Jacobus: yes. quite big

Bertram Jacobus: you are member in many groups (!) ...

Zon Quar: yes..not many operate though

Zon Quar: havent checked the list lately

Bertram Jacobus: i see ... but "sounds" interesting, that list ... ;-)

Zon Quar: well it interests me too..lol

Bertram Jacobus: hehe - i never found so many intersting groups here (!) ...

Zon Quar: this one is nice discussion palce

Zon Quar: very stimulationg views

Bertram Jacobus: yes. and a link to meditation (?) ...

Zon Quar: from many perspectives

Zon Quar: and a scent of scientifid approach

Zon Quar: that i like

Bertram Jacobus: yes. i also appreciate the combination of science and spirituality

Zon Quar: do u know any similar places here ?

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: no. in YOUR profile there seem to be some groups which should have such contents - like kira ? sceptical buddhists ? and some others ... no ?

Zon Quar: Hi Cal

Zon Quar: yup

Calvino Rabeni: Good day Bert and Zon

Bertram Jacobus: hi cal. we speak about interesting groups. zon asked - for similar ones like here ...

Calvino Rabeni: ok

Zon Quar: sceptical buddhism is nice one

Bertram Jacobus: and before we found it quite silent here today ... :-)

Bertram Jacobus: do they have meetings too ?

Zon Quar: yes sundays

Zon Quar: a lecture

Zon Quar: usually

Zon Quar: with comments

Bertram Jacobus: ah. which time ?

Zon Quar: and discussion

Zon Quar: 1.30 pm

Zon Quar: sl time

Bertram Jacobus: oh. overlapping with here ...

Zon Quar: and another time for US

Bertram Jacobus: what does the "tell me a story" above you mean cal ? :-)

Calvino Rabeni: "tell me a story" is the group tag line for the Storytellers Guild of Second Life

Calvino Rabeni: But I put it into the hovertext because I like it

Zon Quar: yes..its a good one

Calvino Rabeni: It means, I like to hear people tell stories about what is happening in their life

Bertram Jacobus: storyteller guild ! ... how does that work ? :-)

Bertram Jacobus: heyy ara ... :-)

arabella Ella: Hiya!

Calvino Rabeni: :) I don't really know it is active... most the groups I have are for announcements

Zon Quar: and to me it seems..that is what we r mostly doing..telling stories

Calvino Rabeni: I go to the events when something interesting comes up

Zon Quar: hi ara

Calvino Rabeni: but there aren't good relationships as here in PaB and Kira

Bertram Jacobus: okay. i see

Calvino Rabeni: I used to go to the OSHO island events

Zon Quar: there havent been much lately

Calvino Rabeni: I like the island

arabella Ella: whats that Calvino?

Calvino Rabeni: right, not like before

Zon Quar: me 2

Bertram Jacobus: what do they do there ?

Calvino Rabeni: They talk Osho philosophy. Osho was a teacher

Calvino Rabeni: who brought together a lot of knowledge of meditation

Zon Quar: very good one too

arabella Ella: what sort of philosophy is it?

Calvino Rabeni: to westerners.

Calvino Rabeni: Synthesis of many eastern traditions

Bertram Jacobus: yes. the main europe center of him is in my town (cologne) - so he is quite well known here

arabella Ella: intruiging

Calvino Rabeni: He didn't get enough respect while alive

Zon Quar: and he had one feature i like that is missing in many teachings

Calvino Rabeni: but now has good reputation in India, I believe

arabella Ella: which is Zon?

Zon Quar: sense of humour

Calvino Rabeni: YEs

Zon Quar: very nice jokes

Zon Quar: lol

Bertram Jacobus: yes

Bertram Jacobus: sometimes very funny :o)

Zon Quar: but not for those who r easily disrturbed

arabella Ella: I must admit i have never heard of him

Bertram Jacobus: his former name was "bhagwan" ...

Calvino Rabeni: He actually is one of the worlds most published authors

arabella Ella: cool

Zon Quar: rajneesh

Calvino Rabeni: in terms of volume

Bertram Jacobus: and "shri rajneesh" ... ;o)

Calvino Rabeni: I knew many followers - and still do -but am not one

Zon Quar: he has dicated about 600 books ?

Zon Quar: dictated

Calvino Rabeni: they still have a good sense of community

Calvino Rabeni: one of his books was recommended by a buddhist friend as a good translation and explanation of a tantra book

Calvino Rabeni: so in other words, he wasn't just making stuff up

Calvino Rabeni: but he did synthesize it for westerners

Zon Quar: no..

Bertram Jacobus: my impression was, his community was VERY emotional and body - orientated . that was not so much my way ... hm -

Zon Quar: he is very clear

Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Book-Secrets-K.../dp/0312180586

Zon Quar: at least to me

Calvino Rabeni: anyone want the log?

Bertram Jacobus: i did not remember how to take it (the log) - and if someone else would do it, i was happy ...

Calvino Rabeni: I have it

Bertram Jacobus: i saw - "ty" :-)

Calvino Rabeni: you just touch the recorder and a dialog appears

Bertram Jacobus: ah. i touched the water before - and nothing happend ... :o)

Calvino Rabeni: storm is just in time for silence

arabella Ella: Hiya Storm

Zon Quar: hi Storm

Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) storm ... :-)

Storm Nordwind: Hi

Calvino Rabeni: Hi i heard that

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: and qt :-)

Bertram Jacobus: ah. okay ! silence in sl - great ... ( i mean refering to storm) ...

Qt Core: hi all

arabella Ella: ciao Qt

Zon Quar: qt

arabella Ella: hope you are not too freezing Qt

arabella Ella: or you Bertram

arabella Ella: or Zon

Qt Core: no, warmer today, 1,5C at the moment

Bertram Jacobus: why should that be ara ? :-)

arabella Ella: the news is full of stuff about Europe freezing and places with no power

Storm Nordwind: Warm here too. -2C. Although snow is falling.

Bertram Jacobus: ah. no. not in germany ! ;-)

arabella Ella: here it is still warm still around 15 - 18 celsius

Qt Core: last week was colder, the problem was the snow

Qt Core: this week

Bertram Jacobus: in germany the electricity never drops out :o) - it's such an ordinary country ! ... ;-)

Qt Core: one more reason for going to the retreat :-) :-(

arabella Ella: yes Qt you should consider joining us too :)

arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku

Qt Core: this morning the power went out in Milan central station for i couple hours i've heard

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone

Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) yaku ! ... :-)

Zon Quar: yaky

arabella Ella: i had lunch in front of TV earlier and they said Bologna was isolated and there were places with no electricity in UK and in Italy too

arabella Ella: i would like to bring up a topic if it is ok with you all

Yakuzza Lethecus: sure

arabella Ella: what do you think of the concept of inner guides?

Qt Core: better than remember the snow , yes please :-)

arabella Ella: :)

Calvino Rabeni: I like that topic ara

Yakuzza Lethecus: can you elaborate on the guides ?

arabella Ella: it seems to be a recurring theme, in Christianity there is the guardian angel for example

arabella Ella: other people, I just looked up OSHO believe in an inner guide i see

arabella Ella: so that triggered the question and curiousity to learn more

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey fef

Bertram Jacobus: i think ... i never had much contact to such guides ... hm -

Storm Nordwind: The guardian angel I think is seen as an external guide

Zon Quar: i call it intuition

arabella Ella: external to some extent but spiritual Storm

arabella Ella: and non visible

arabella Ella: Hiya Fef

Storm Nordwind: Visible to some! :)

Fefonz Quan: Hi all, sorry for getting here so late

Qt Core: isn't the guardian angel just that, a guardian and not a "real" guide, more passive to say it another way ?

arabella Ella: depends Qt

Bertram Jacobus: hi fef ! :-)

Bertram Jacobus: and storm - you are not in silence ? ;-)

arabella Ella: as kids brought up in the Catholic tradition we were taught to trust our guardian angel and to allow the angel to guide us along the 'good' path

Storm Nordwind: Yes it depends on the definition you want. These things range from intuition to gods - quite a spectrum!

arabella Ella: but many people from different faiths have brought up the topic of inner guide with me

Qt Core: a personificayion of coscience (as in the moral compass) ?

Zon Quar: i dont exclude guides .influences..thoughts..ur inner self

arabella Ella: not only consciience also companion and friend

arabella Ella: a friendly spirit that guides us along our path

Zon Quar: this has a link to yesterday discussion on i sther econsciousness without physical body

Qt Core: the little bug trying to guide Pinocchio ;-)

arabella Ella: to some extent yes

Zon Quar: and if there is

arabella Ella: if i may ask does anyone here feel they have a spiritual inner guide?

Zon Quar: ther might be conscious entities

Fefonz Quan: I don't

Zon Quar: without physicaal body

Zon Quar: that could communicate with us

arabella Ella nods

Storm Nordwind is sorry but he is on and off the phone

arabella Ella: oh no Storm would be great to hear your opinion on this :)

arabella Ella: and yours Calvino since you said you found the topic interesting

Storm Nordwind: I have external spritual guides that I can communicate with and an intuition that I can acess

Bertram Jacobus: in former times, i thought sometimes about the guardian angel. and often said, mine was lazy but reliable : always startet to work, when it was nessecairy ... :-)

arabella Ella: :)

arabella Ella: interesting thought ... ehrm ... a lazy guardian angel

Zon Quar: i like the way Socrates put is..he had ann inner guide that never told him what to do, but waht not to do

Zon Quar: if that guide was silent, he did what he wanted

Fefonz Quan: it's interesting, for me it is a quite unfamiliar concept

arabella Ella: do you know where that is Zon ... in which book?

Calvino Rabeni: Actually in my view there are degrees of faith - I am agnostic about guides, but give them active energy and try to cultivate them

Calvino Rabeni: But not a true literal believer, quite

Fefonz Quan nods to calvino

arabella Ella: yes i dont think you need to belong to any faith to believe in inner guides which are spiritual entities but not necessarily religious ... only they seem to be a sort of archetype somehow

Calvino Rabeni: agree, ara

Fefonz Quan feels he can bump into guides in any other corner,

Qt Core: i'm thinking about the more annoying thought layer/observer i have, but i can't really call it a guide

--BELL--

Fefonz Quan: but not something 'out there' walking with you

Zon Quar: dont remeber which book i read it from ara

arabella Ella: please say more if you could Qt ...and they could be 'inner' Fef not necessarily external to us

Fefonz Quan: i understand ara, but then the

Storm Nordwind is now off the phone (he thinks!)

Bertram Jacobus: hi genesis :-)

arabella Ella: Hiya Gen

Fefonz Quan: inner feels like intuition rather than another entity

Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen!

arabella Ella: some people call them spirit guides

genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fefonz!

genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone!

arabella Ella: and some say they are people we may have known or who knew us who have passed away but whose spirit guides us

Zon Quar: my aim is to get in touch with the cosmic whole...what it wants me to do..so whether ther is an entity guiding me is not so relvant..but how i receive correctly what the whole wnats meto de

Storm Nordwind: that is possible

Storm Nordwind: ara

Calvino Rabeni: it is interesting to consider ego and soul as guides

Qt Core: i always feel like there are several observer observing, commenting and vetoing my spontaneous thought, before they become action/word, one of them, the moral compas may be the guyde you are speaking about

Zon Quar: to do

arabella Ella nods to Qt

Storm Nordwind: I had a guide that brought me to Buddhism Zon. So they do seem to have a use! ')

Calvino Rabeni: or vehicles, but they have some intelligence so maybe some entity-ness

arabella Ella: Gen we are discussing inner guides or spirit guides or guardian angels ... an inner guiding spirit

Bertram Jacobus: (there is a movie with the titel "michael" - it´s protagonist is an very unusual angel, played by john travolta - very human in best way and amiable) ...

Qt Core: often this one and the lazy one fight ;-)

arabella Ella: I would love to hear more about your experience Storm please ... my intuition tells me you have lots to say :)

Zon Quar: or ue guide ?

Storm Nordwind: hmm... yes I probably do... but really don't want to dominate

Fefonz Quan: do dominate Storm :)

arabella Ella: i for one dont mind you dominating on this topic at all :)

Calvino Rabeni: yes, please dominate us :)

Zon Quar: please do

Storm Nordwind gets the whip out for Cal

arabella Ella: sounds like we are all submissive to Storm tonite

Calvino Rabeni: By popular demand :)

Storm Nordwind chuckles

Zon Quar: lol

Zon Quar: no whip please

Storm Nordwind: Where do I start? As far as I am concerned there are external entities that act as guides...

Storm Nordwind: but I only say that because I can often establish 2 way communication with them

Storm Nordwind: But these entities take many forms

Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) fox ... :-)

arabella Ella listens attentively

Fox Monacular: Hello everyone

Storm Nordwind: And may be Auntie Mabel, who is well meaning but is just as crazed as she was when in physical body...

arabella Ella: Hiya Fox

Storm Nordwind: Or it may be a Buddha!

Storm Nordwind: Quite a spectrum really

arabella Ella: is there more than one Storm?

arabella Ella: and can you identify them?

Storm Nordwind: Sure there's very many, and I can identify them to a large degree, with a bit of intelligence and a lot of experience

Fefonz Quan nods

Fefonz Quan: i just thought this kind of guides is different than guardian angle

Storm Nordwind: There are also angels too...

Zon Quar: so non physical worls is as ful of teachers as physical one ?

Storm Nordwind: I used to have things to do with them a decade or so ago, but they are non-human

Storm Nordwind: Zon, it's as full of entities as physical one. Some good, some bad, most indifferent

Zon Quar: nods

Bertram Jacobus: i'll leave - have a nice time all - and may all beings be happy please . ty !

Storm Nordwind: Namaste

Zon Quar: bye bert

Fefonz Quan: Night Bert

arabella Ella: nite Bert

Bertram Jacobus: ty all again

Qt Core: bye bert

arabella Ella: so Storm you have had contact in the past with Angels ... wow ... please say more if you could :)

Storm Nordwind: And just as in the physical world, someone who guides you for a while might "hand you over" to someone else later

Storm Nordwind: Many years ago I used to do healing with the White Eagle Lodge. They specifcally and deliberately work with angels

Storm Nordwind: If you have some small level of vision like me, you can see them

arabella Ella: see them?

arabella Ella: or sense them?

Storm Nordwind: Sure see them. Most people can sense. A few can see

arabella Ella: that is so amazing

Zon Quar: logical to me

Storm Nordwind: But like most people, they can choose (to some extent) whether you see them!

Storm Nordwind: ;)

arabella Ella: is it appropriate to ask ... what did you see?

Storm Nordwind: The point is not the seeing. That is just showy tricks. The point is whether the contact is of use or service

--BELL--

Storm Nordwind: It depends on the being. Many can present themselves in easy to see ways for us (thankfully)

arabella Ella: so Storm when you meet people in RL can you tell whether they too have a spirit guide or not?

Storm Nordwind is a die-hard pragmatist and is not impressed just with the seeing. But it is a useful tool

arabella Ella: i guess the seeing is a gift somehow

Storm Nordwind: If the spirit guide wishes their presence to be known, yes ara

arabella Ella: an additional gift

Calvino Rabeni: I have similar opinion

arabella Ella: yes?

Calvino Rabeni: similar to what storm expressed about pragmatism

Calvino Rabeni: and tool

Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't detached

Storm Nordwind: It is like dowsing or water divining. I seems to work and it's very useful if you live in isolated aprts of the country. But I have no idea how it works. It just does. That's another aspect of the pragmatism

Calvino Rabeni: yes

arabella Ella: but is it somehow like a skill that you develop and hone with time patience and experience ... or does it just come naturally?

Storm Nordwind: It's not something I usually talk about. It doesn't normally help others to know. And they is so much prejudice - even if I'm not to be put on a fire this lifetime!

arabella Ella: :)

Storm Nordwind: Seeing is part talent and part training and part practice, like anything else

arabella Ella: thanks for sharing though and i still have more than 101 questions to go ...

Calvino Rabeni: part of being pragmatic is - how does one relate to tools - do they distance or limit you in some way

Storm Nordwind: All things can do that Cal. If you let them. It's possible not to

Calvino Rabeni: yes my point is that

Calvino Rabeni: to be sensitive to it

Storm Nordwind: By the way ara, at dowsing workshop I found I could teach betwen 1/3 to 1/2 to do succssful water divining (as beginners) - admittedly from a self-selecting group

Storm Nordwind: Yes Cal

arabella Ella: wow i would love to attend a workshop like that with you ... a good friend of mine used to do divining at the prehistoric temples here and it was amazing to watch him do it ... caputuring the energy

Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone

arabella Ella: nite Yaku

Fefonz Quan: nite Yaku

Fefonz Quan was just about to ask what is water diving

arabella Ella: he could also see peoples auras ... which is something else which i guess you can do too Storm?

Storm Nordwind: yes I have done that too, but so often it comes up with unveriable claims - unless you're digging too

Storm Nordwind: phone..

Calvino Rabeni: ara, for another angle, my slight contact with "guides" was in the context of native american shamanism (sweat lodge and trance journey)

arabella Ella: wow Calvino i have been on one journey like that too ... amazing experience ... and what happened was totally unexpected

Calvino Rabeni: listens

arabella Ella: but i would love to hear more from you if you could too

arabella Ella: i will tell you my experience later ... time permitting

Fefonz Quan: I would say that for me it is quite difficult to take such experiences as valid/absolute ttruth/pragamtic for practice

Calvino Rabeni: I was hoping your story first :)

arabella Ella: Fef water divining is when people hold metal sticks and they move where they find energy or water in the ground

arabella Ella: :)

arabella Ella: ok Calvino here goes :)

Calvino Rabeni: :)

arabella Ella: i was at a conference a couple of years ago in Phoenix Arizona

arabella Ella: and an extra evening session was on shamanism ... an experiential workshop

arabella Ella: and they guy played drums and sent us on a trip to meet 'someone'

arabella Ella: we could either fly into the sky high above everything else

arabella Ella: or travel down to the depths of the sea

arabella Ella: and i somehow expected to meet one of my late grand mothers

Storm Nordwind (back)

arabella Ella: but i met the other one

arabella Ella: and she passed on a message to me

arabella Ella: it may not sound like much

arabella Ella: but it was very impressive and totally unexpected

arabella Ella: she told me she was at peace and serene and well

arabella Ella: thats it

arabella Ella: may not sound like much but it was an experience i will never forget

Calvino Rabeni: TY

arabella Ella: next please ... :)

Calvino Rabeni: I know 2 men who do this extensively; I have only done it about half dozen times so am no expert

Calvino Rabeni: the tradition is ancient

genesis Zhangsun: be everyone

genesis Zhangsun: :)

genesis Zhangsun: bye

arabella Ella: bye Gen

Calvino Rabeni: and they often use drums or rattles and go to a sky or underworld

arabella Ella nods

Calvino Rabeni: Or also journey in the middle world, which is this one

Fefonz Quan: bye Gen!

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: One friend became approved teacher after being apprentice

Storm Nordwind: I used to act as guardian for a seidh work (heathen shaman)

Calvino Rabeni: There are some fake teachers of this - and real ones

Calvino Rabeni: One teacher was of Ojibway tribe -

Storm Nordwind: Yes. And some make quite unnecessary palaver when all you need to do is "see"!

Calvino Rabeni: They are given that role by their community - often have no choice in the matter

Calvino Rabeni: As their elders may see the role before they are born

Calvino Rabeni: Part of the feeling of it is connecting to ancestors through prayer

Calvino Rabeni: that is their way - not the way of a western thinker, but I try to be open to it

arabella Ella: yes i think that altho there may not be tangible empirical evidence yet we should remain open to all these possibilities

Calvino Rabeni: and have met with some success, in one journey being taken by a guide on an ongoing basis

Calvino Rabeni: my motto :) stay open but think :)

arabella Ella: the same guide each time?

Calvino Rabeni: I "found" one in the journey trance, I can make contact outside

Calvino Rabeni: But, I don't want to claim it as a literal reality

Calvino Rabeni: It might be just my imagination contacting a subtle realm

Fefonz Quan nods

Qt Core: :) ara, i have problems in believing all was said tonight but all in all as i lack knowledgepro or con , why not

Qt Core: ?

arabella Ella: but ... as you said ... you keep an open mind

Calvino Rabeni: But I do think of imagination as a sense organ

Calvino Rabeni: yes

Storm Nordwind: It shapes and can be shaped

Zon Quar: what is imagination ?

Fefonz Quan: think of a purple cow in your mind Zon. see it? that is imagination

Storm Nordwind chuckles

Zon Quar: hm..

Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, I have RL phone call now - please go on while I lurk

Fefonz Quan: :)

Zon Quar: if i write a book..its imagination too

Zon Quar: but if its published

Zon Quar: its still imagiantion

Fefonz Quan: the plot is, the book isn't

Zon Quar: r u sure

Calvino Rabeni: please be careful with assumptious about imagination

Zon Quar: book is just energy particles

Fefonz Quan: about what?

Zon Quar: cosmic imagination ?

Zon Quar: lol

Fefonz Quan: consmic imagination is an imagined concept :)

Qt Core: time to go, bye all

Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt

Fox Monacular: me too, bye everyone

Fefonz Quan: bye Fox

Zon Quar: ihave roblems with what is real and what is imagination and how do we define teh difference

arabella Ella: notte Qt

arabella Ella: bye Fox

Fefonz Quan: it is a difficult one...

Fefonz Quan: maybe on one level, the things that you don't need any effort in order to 'see' are not imagined (and i can see them too maybe)

Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me everyone

Fefonz Quan: I guess it deserves a new session,

Zon Quar: ah must go too, ty all , namaste, very interesting...

Fefonz Quan: Night Storm

Storm Nordwind waves

Fefonz Quan: and i will leave too, it's very late

--BELL--

arabella Ella: nite Fef

Fefonz Quan: Night Ara, Calvino

arabella Ella: quite an evening

arabella Ella: all thanks to Osho

arabella Ella: as the website i found instigated this topic

arabella Ella: i must go soon

arabella Ella: nite Calvino and thanks!

arabella Ella: bye

Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_