2009.12.29 13:00 - gaming - illusion - beauty

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Chrismas chatting...

Lia Rikugun: hello Liza
Liza Deischer: hi Lia
Lia Rikugun: how was chrismas for you?
Lia Rikugun: or did you not celebrate?
Liza Deischer: yes the first day, with my family
Liza Deischer: it was okay
Lia Rikugun: :)
Liza Deischer: and yours
Lia Rikugun: yes ok too :) also with my family, everybody tried to cook something
Lia Rikugun: and then we had a complete dinner
Liza Deischer: thats nice
Liza Deischer: we kept it simple
Liza Deischer: no one was interessted in cooking :-)
Lia Rikugun: hehe too much stress
Liza Deischer: yep
Liza Deischer: but started eeting in the afternoon anyway, and didnt stop until midnight :-)
Liza Deischer: hi Zon
Lia Rikugun: wow
Liza Deischer: my stomach is okay now :-)
Lia Rikugun: for chrismas you always eat so so much
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: hello zon
Zon Quar: heya
Liza Deischer: hi Bert
Liza Deischer: sorry Zon, you almost have the same sweater as Bert has
Zon Quar: really
Liza Deischer: same colours
Zon Quar: cant see yet
arabella Ella: Hiya
Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
Liza Deischer: hi Ara, still celebrating christmas?
arabella Ella: yes
Zon Quar: hi ara ã‹¡
Lia Rikugun: wow nice smiley
arabella Ella: any excuse for celebration :)
Zon Quar: no
Zon Quar: u need an excuse for not celebratting
arabella Ella smiles ...cant but agree

Zon Quar: especially if u r in warm mediterranean island
arabella Ella: had another christmas lunch today
arabella Ella: yes ... with lovely temperatures in the mid 20s for some weeks now
Lia Rikugun: nice!
Liza Deischer: here its raining
arabella Ella: owwww
Liza Deischer: and cold
Lia Rikugun: here too :( so saaad
Liza Deischer: Im jealous :-)
Lia Rikugun: :)
arabella Ella: I just hope we have this weather for the malta retreat ... fingers tightly crossed
Lia Rikugun: yesyes!
arabella Ella: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody
Liza Deischer: hi Agatha
Lia Rikugun: hello agatha
arabella Ella: Hiya Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: ;
Agatha Macbeth: :)
arabella Ella: on sunday morning it was around 28 degrees which is incredible for this time of the year
Zon Quar: please...
Liza Deischer: that's a little bit too hot for me
arabella Ella: believe me it is very comfortable
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: I just dont want to put down my leather jacket :-)
arabella Ella: it is really hot in summer when it gets to be 35 and higher
arabella Ella: :)
Liza Deischer: hi Aubergine
Agatha Macbeth: Erk
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aubergine
Liza Deischer: Erk?
arabella Ella: Hiya Aubergine
Lia Rikugun: hello aubergine
Zon Quar: hi A
Agatha Macbeth: Can't remember why I said that now
Liza Deischer: :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, it was Ara's 35 degrees
Liza Deischer: but wat does it mean?
Lia Rikugun: hello calvino
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
Agatha Macbeth: Means it's waaaay too hot for me...
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Liza Ag and all
Liza Deischer: I agree
Liza Deischer: I mena, it is also too hot for me
Zon Quar: Cal
Liza Deischer: mean
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: :) arabella

arabella Ella: does anyone know whether Pema intends to have the theme session today?
arabella Ella: now i mean?
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: good question
Agatha Macbeth: I think he would probably be here already
Zon Quar: what is a theme session
arabella Ella: a session based on a particular topic
Calvino Rabeni: The last announcement had no theme session for today
Lia Rikugun: he sent an email earlier
arabella Ella: ah
Lia Rikugun: but there was no theme session for today
Calvino Rabeni: Tomorrow at 13:00 is one on Sustainability
arabella Ella: ah yes the one with doug i guess?

Liza Deischer: hi Bert
Lia Rikugun: hello betram
Agatha Macbeth: Yo Bertie
Zon Quar: bert
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody ... :-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram
Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
Agatha Macbeth: And Eliza too :)
Lia Rikugun: hello elizas
arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :) Funny rezzing today... see just Ara's hat and hair, and only hair for Zon and Cal and Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aaaaw, you looked like you were holding hands for a moment!
Agatha Macbeth: Sweet
arabella Ella: :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. who eliza and me ? :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Yup
arabella Ella: just appreciate it all Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Agatha Macbeth: Hee hee
Zon Quar: yes bert has my sweater
arabella Ella: i can see Zon as a cloud and I cant see Eliza at all
Bertram Jacobus: no
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Bertram Jacobus: you have mine :o)
Liza Deischer: almost
Zon Quar: ilet u have it
Eliza Madrigal: just missing a scarf Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Or mine :)
Liza Deischer: I thought you were already here Bert
Zon Quar: oh there it is
Bertram Jacobus: why that liza (!?) :-)
Zon Quar: i was missing it
Liza Deischer: because I saw a white sweater with blue on the shoulders, and a pair of jeans
Liza Deischer: but it happened to be Zon :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah. lo. i see :-)
Eliza Madrigal: There is big business this year in 'ugly christmas sweaters"... people having parties, etc. (Though your sweaters are lovely, guys) :)
Agatha Macbeth: Probably all presents :)
Zon Quar: ugly..waht is it
arabella Ella: reminds me of some of the sweaters worn in Bridget Jones movie
Eliza Madrigal: the ones with little bells and animals on them....
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly Ara!
Zon Quar: well im daniel and bert is the good guy
arabella Ella: embarrasing to wear but often ... not possible to do otherwise
Eliza Madrigal: Well the parties seemed a fun idea... if a little kitchy (sp?)
Agatha Macbeth: Kitschy?
arabella Ella: i kinda like the idea ... but first time i am hearing about it
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
arabella Ella: kitch ... flashy, bad taste, loud
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Bert, no fun. :) I was *not* refering to your perfectly tasteful sweater!
Liza Deischer: Hey Bert, where are you.....? :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: ooooh quick change artist
arabella Ella: where is your sweater now Bert?
Qt Core: hi all
Liza Deischer: hi T
arabella Ella: Hiya Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt
Bertram Jacobus: in the wardrobe
Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera QT
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! :-) ...
arabella Ella: :)
Agatha Macbeth: With the Lion and the Witch?
Eliza Madrigal grins
Qt Core: 'sera Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: :-)

Agatha Macbeth: Imagine walking through the back of a wardrobe into another world
arabella Ella: would be great
Agatha Macbeth: Sure would!
Bertram Jacobus: if you have a computer there ... could work ... ;-)
arabella Ella: but dont we do just that here on SL?
Eliza Madrigal: the best stories.. secret worlds open in the midst of ordinary things...
arabella Ella: through our monitors
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder if it would be like SL on the other dide?
Agatha Macbeth: side
Agatha Macbeth: There you go :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well, there are fauns and dragons and fairies oh my :)
Agatha Macbeth: And the wicked queen!
Eliza Madrigal: brrr
Liza Deischer: its an interesting idea, how would our world be looking like
Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon once made a gate around her house that approaching I felt as though I'd fallen into "The Secret Garden" which was a favorite book from childhood
Liza Deischer: look like
arabella Ella: how lovely
Eliza Madrigal: of course she changed it right after... hah... impermanence
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes Eliza, i remember it
Agatha Macbeth: The book that is
Agatha Macbeth: Not the garden
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: it was a movie too
Liza Deischer: ....if we could get behind our material world
--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: somebody introduced a few days before the "project natal" here - also a virtual world access - found that quite exciting ... and was quite similar to our known world, only a bit different. we could make out of our phantasies what ever we like ... hm
Bertram Jacobus: sry. and this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxU_T7C4Ils&feature=related
arabella Ella: is it another virtual world Bertram?
Eliza Madrigal: a way to share pizza ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: especially its a virtual character (!)
Bertram Jacobus: which interacts with the user
Eliza Madrigal: seems to ask questions like 'what is touch?"
Bertram Jacobus: who please ? :-)
Eliza Madrigal: this technology itself Bert
Calvino Rabeni: In project natal, your whole body is the controller
Bertram Jacobus: this technology = "milo" eliza ?
Eliza Madrigal: meaning, the person responds to the person responding... is a kind of feeling
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Calvino Rabeni: so you may be more fully embodied in its virtual world
Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call it "technology"
Eliza Madrigal: what would you call it?
Bertram Jacobus: milo for example
Eliza Madrigal: just Milo :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes :-))
Eliza Madrigal: Sure
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Milo Minderbinder :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol agatha
Bertram Jacobus: we can drop him too
Eliza Madrigal: My imaginary friend's name was Sassy... so I hope all of them don't have to be Milo ;-)
Eliza Madrigal guffaws
Agatha Macbeth: Why Sassy?
Eliza Madrigal: Oh I don't have a clue... would have to ask the 4 or 5 year old I think :)
Calvino Rabeni: Children have Alts
Agatha Macbeth: Aaaw
Bertram Jacobus: all of whom ? sry must ask silly today a lot like it seems
Eliza Madrigal: yes they do, Cal!
Calvino Rabeni: Later they try to be One
Lia Rikugun: wow thats funny with the mirror image in the water! ( watching the youtube video)
Eliza Madrigal: Bert, I was just suggesting that maybe "Milo" himself is just one of many personalized variations... suitable for individuals :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. ty eliza !
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: mirror image !? i did not notice or do not remember ... see my awareness ...
Lia Rikugun: :) on the video the 'real' woman looks onto the screen and into the water there
arabella Ella: they seem to be calling it a game and there seem to be similarities with WII
Lia Rikugun: and can see somehow her miorrored image in the water
Eliza Madrigal: wild
Bertram Jacobus: and the virtual and real world more and more mixe up i find ...
Lia Rikugun: and her movements move the water surface
Lia Rikugun: so thats cool :)

Liza Deischer: You can ask yourself what is real in both virtual world as in rl
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bertram Jacobus: for me most things are real ...
Liza Deischer: what is it that makes it real?
Bertram Jacobus: the reality
Bertram Jacobus: that i can touch, smell, see something -
Zon Quar: if something affests ur thoughts, feelings, it is real
Calvino Rabeni: everything is real - including your "illusions"
Zon Quar: yes
Eliza Madrigal: its a great question. Illusions can affect our feelings and thoughts...

arabella Ella: for me the problem arises with really violent games and stuff
arabella Ella: the destructive sort
Bertram Jacobus: illusions is a word that i noticed the last days in the way that i don´t know much about them ...
Liza Deischer: yes
Zon Quar: world can been seen as an illusion
Bertram Jacobus: i can´t do that
Zon Quar: like indian philosophy does
Liza Deischer: people who are gaming say they are not really effected in real life
Bertram Jacobus: would not be real to me
Liza Deischer: they dont want to schoot anybody, they claim
Zon Quar: it all dpends on how we want to define real
Liza Deischer: so whats the difference Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: my experiences are different : not illusionory, at least more real
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: It does not seem possible Liza, for there to be no detrimental effect
Lia Rikugun: if you do something too long it might fell more rreal at some point
arabella Ella: there has been an ongoing debate for decades now on whether TV violence has any effects ... and this will probably ... or has already spilt over into the effects of some games
Liza Deischer: well, I think so too Cal, but we do make a difference
Zon Quar: of course it has i thin. it provides pattern off behviour
Eliza Madrigal: the lines can become thinner and thinner... and for someone aware that they are gaming maybe there is no danger... but for those gaming because they have violent tendencies they want to play out and are working up to... scary
Bertram Jacobus: you meant the difference between illusion and reality liza ?
Liza Deischer: the difference between the reality of violent games and the reality of say sl
Bertram Jacobus: oh. the more or less violent aspect for example
Liza Deischer: te way we perceive it
Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
Bertram Jacobus: bye aubergine
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Aubergine :)
Lia Rikugun: bye aubergine
arabella Ella: well SL is also a game for some ... and some use it for venting violence too
arabella Ella: bye Aubergine
Agatha Macbeth: Anyone who can't tell the difference between a game and real life has serious mental issues anyway IMHO
Liza Deischer: we seem to make a difference of what we want to be real or not
Qt Core: bye aubergine
Agatha Macbeth: C ya Minty
Liza Deischer: bye aubergine, she said a little late
Liza Deischer: of = between
Zon Quar: if reading a book is real as it has effects on our behaviour, why not computer game or sl, wich is more intensive ?
Calvino Rabeni: Or driving a car
Eliza Madrigal: that which provides repetition... a book forces a slower pace....
Zon Quar: what is real life ?
Agatha Macbeth: Now *that* is dangerous- especially if it's me :)
Liza Deischer: what is real?
Bertram Jacobus: movement zon ?
Calvino Rabeni: I always thought, anyone with a spiritual practice, would extrapolate, to understand the effects on consciousness of something like a video game
Agatha Macbeth: What is life?

Qt Core: i think seeing violence (in movies/book) or even more playing it in games (and sports) may exorcize it and so you don't vent it at real people
Bertram Jacobus: reality liza ?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes QT :)
Calvino Rabeni: Qt, on the other hand, perhaps it frustrates the desire
Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s simply movement agatha -
Calvino Rabeni: rather than sublimating or expressing it
Eliza Madrigal: That's what Steven King says too, Qt
Agatha Macbeth: What is Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: live = movement
Bertram Jacobus: life*
Agatha Macbeth: Ah I see :)
Qt Core: for extreme cases, i go (wentr i didn't dp it in a while) search for a fight in chatrooms ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Going through the motions?
arabella Ella: there is also the argument that movies which are violent can trivialise the value of life
Bertram Jacobus: also, yes agatha :-)
Bertram Jacobus: nice play with words
Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
Liza Deischer: live = movement, interesting
Zon Quar: meme is a copied behavior pattern, we copy everything, also violent behaviour patterns i fthey are made acceptable
Eliza Madrigal: Ara, I'd think it depends on the intention and the way they are handled? a lot like the art v porn discussions I think
Calvino Rabeni: any image exists in body and culture at same time
Qt Core: that is more a problem of discriminating real from fake/virtual
Agatha Macbeth: Do the games reflect society or does society reflect the games?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
arabella Ella: yes Eliza
arabella Ella: i sometimes wonder what attracts people towards violence
Liza Deischer: my teacher wanted to explain karma
Bertram Jacobus: vice versa agatha ?
Liza Deischer: to him it is al in the habitual patterns
Agatha Macbeth: Or something Bert :)
Eliza Madrigal: loops
Bertram Jacobus: may be evolution ara
Zon Quar: like school shootings..copied behavoiur
arabella Ella: why evolution Bert?
Calvino Rabeni: why do people watch violent movies - to be angry - why watch horror movies - to be fearful
Bertram Jacobus: because violence is an important aspect while developing i fear ara ... ;-)
Qt Core: but in a controlled, safe ambient, calvino
Agatha Macbeth: Chacun a son gout, no?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Bertram Jacobus: welcome to babylon *jokin*
Agatha Macbeth: Hey! Leave babylon alone :)
Liza Deischer: sorry Agatha?
Eliza Madrigal: my children and their alts are tugging at me. Thanks for the interesting session :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
Agatha Macbeth: What?
arabella Ella: bye Eliza
Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza - have a good rtime !
Liza Deischer: bye eliza

Zon Quar: is real only that what we percieve with our senses ?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Eliza
Liza Deischer: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Words like "illusion" won't tell you "why". Have to see that for oneself. http://www.snappywords.com/?lookup=illusion
arabella Ella: our dreams are real too
Lia Rikugun: bye eliza
Liza Deischer: my dreams are violent sometimes
Agatha Macbeth: What's the difference between illusion and delusion?
Agatha Macbeth: Or is there one?
Zon Quar: dont ask me im dreaming
Calvino Rabeni: Liza, do you have a comment on the dreaming?
Agatha Macbeth: Me too :)
arabella Ella: delusion involves negative aspects
Agatha Macbeth: Illusion can do that too Ara
Bertram Jacobus: illusion may be less linked with intent ... (then delusion)
Liza Deischer: not really
Calvino Rabeni: Is Beauty in the eye of the beholder?
Liza Deischer: Im just curious
Bertram Jacobus: other way round sry
Agatha Macbeth: Probably
Zon Quar: yes Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Entirely, zon?
--BELL--
Zon Quar: we think that is beautiful what we want
Zon Quar: we dont want something because it is beautiful
Agatha Macbeth: Time to go methinks. Take care all.
arabella Ella: bye Agatha
Lia Rikugun: i think i need to go too
Lia Rikugun: you all take care
arabella Ella: nite Lia
Lia Rikugun: good night :)
Liza Deischer: so am I
Zon Quar: bye Lia
Liza Deischer: see you all next time
Zon Quar: Liza
arabella Ella: nite Liza

arabella Ella: i like your questions on beauty Zon
arabella Ella: what do you think beauty is?
Zon Quar: answer to my desire
Bertram Jacobus: nice answer
arabella Ella: but dont your desires go beyond beauty?
arabella Ella: like when hungry and eating
arabella Ella: or when socialising and drinking alcohol
Calvino Rabeni: Some say, desire itself is founded in beauty
Zon Quar: well the food looks then delicuos
Zon Quar: and beautiful
arabella Ella: :)
Qt Core: something i can observe (with whechever sense) and don't have the urge to analyze
Zon Quar: i thinkk desire is basic
Calvino Rabeni: analysis may block perception of beauty
Calvino Rabeni: except for mathematicians :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol
arabella Ella: symmetry is often considered to be part of beauty
arabella Ella: in maths, in human faces, in art
Calvino Rabeni: ah, but a true beauty always has a touch of the uncanny
Calvino Rabeni: it is an essential
Qt Core: yes, but i feel thet something is nice when i don't wont to immediatly analyze that so it goers bioth way
Calvino Rabeni: which tells something about beauty
arabella Ella: it is scarey though to see the influence of the media on what young people consider as beautiful ... like very thin people for example
arabella Ella: or like cosmetic surgery
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time, ty and may all beings be happy please (!) ... *wave* ...
Qt Core: trying bert ;-)
arabella Ella: guten nacht bert
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty all ! :-)
Zon Quar: afcourse u have the truth, beauty, and good as abstarct qualities, but not very easy to grasp
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
Calvino Rabeni: ah, but they are not abstract
Qt Core: i have to go too, bye all
arabella Ella: notte Qt
Zon Quar: bye
Calvino Rabeni: they can't be grasped as abstract, because they aren't
Zon Quar: but still i think ther eis a basic desire in us
Zon Quar: to live
Zon Quar: to be
Zon Quar: to create
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, I have to go - right in the middle of a classic philo discussion about the True, the Good, and the Beautiful.
arabella Ella: :)
Zon Quar: heheh
arabella Ella: bye Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: I agree with all that, Zon
Zon Quar: we must slove this next time
Calvino Rabeni: bye for now
Zon Quar: solve
Zon Quar: bfn, i go too
Yakuzza Lethecus: nihgt everyone