2009.12.09 13:00 - Following up on YS, BS and ES

Wol Euler was guardian for this session, filling in for Fefonz. Comments will be added later.

 

Wol Euler: hello geoff, liza, aubergine

Geoff Baily: hi wol

Wol Euler: how is everyone today?

Aubergine Mint: pretty good thanks

Aubergine Mint: you?

Liza Deischer: Im fine thanks

Wol Euler: mixed. Spent the day on trains, for a meeting in Munich, now vaguely frazzled

Geoff Baily: well thanks, still full of yesterday'x meeting here

Wol Euler smiles. There was a lot to think about!

Geoff Baily: wow!!

Wol Euler: did anyone try the exercises today?

Aubergine Mint: will you continue with the ES discussions?

Liza Deischer: im sorry, no

Geoff Baily: a little

Aubergine Mint: I'm not sure how to

Wol Euler: hello calvino

Liza Deischer: hi calvino

Aubergine Mint: hi

arabella Ella: Hiya

Geoff Baily: little bit of exercises

Liza Deischer: hi arabella

Wol Euler: hello ara

Calvino Rabeni: hello all

Geoff Baily: hi Calvino nice to see you

Liza Deischer: Im still trying to figger out what this is all about

Wol Euler smiles

Aubergine Mint: me too

Geoff Baily: hi arabella

Wol Euler: well :)

Liza Deischer: so no practice

Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you again Geoff

Wol Euler: there is no hidden agenda, let me say that from the start. Or if there is, it's hidden from me too.

arabella Ella: :)

Wol Euler: there is no religious basis, we aren't a cult.

Geoff Baily: ;)

Wol Euler: many people find many different things here, I came looking for tools for dealing with unhappiness and anxiety in my RL

Aubergine Mint: it seems to me that a knowledge of Buddhism would help

Wol Euler: there are many buddhists in the group, and their vocabulary tends to colour the conversation, yes.

Qt Core: hi all

Liza Deischer: well Im a buddhist

Geoff Baily: Hello Qt

Wol Euler: buona sera, qt

arabella Ella: Hiya Qt

Aubergine Mint: many terms not familiar to me

Liza Deischer: but you use a lot of short names

arabella Ella: many terms are not familiar to me either

Liza Deischer: i dont know from buddhisme

arabella Ella: but life is a learning experience

Wol Euler nods. We have been talking to each other concentratedly for quite a while :) shortcuts do develop

Wol Euler: well, let's carry on with that.

Liza Deischer: true

Liza Deischer: its not a real problem

Liza Deischer: but it takes some time to make sense out of it

arabella Ella: the nice thing is that when one of us does not understand a word, expression or short cut and asks there is always someone willing to patiently explain

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: true

Geoff Baily: ;)

Wol Euler: please, don't hesitate to ask.

Aubergine Mint: yes, i noticed that

Aubergine Mint: very welcoming

Liza Deischer: somebody helped me yesterday in im

Wol Euler: the only bad question is the one you don't ask.

arabella Ella: he he

Liza Deischer: true

Wol Euler: shall we do an exercise now? YS?

Aubergine Mint: sure

Liza Deischer: well then let me ask

Liza Deischer: YS?

Geoff Baily: yes please

Wol Euler: in the break, try to appreciate all that is around you, without judging or imposing valuation

Wol Euler: "you seeing"

Wol Euler: just notice what is around you, without judging it.

--BELL--

Wol Euler: that was a little rushed, I didn't have my eye on the clock. Sorry.

Wol Euler: any comments on that exercise?

Aubergine Mint: felt mind opening

Aubergine Mint: broader awareness

arabella Ella: i managed a few deep breaths

Geoff Baily: listening to the fountain

Wol Euler smiles. Good. For myself, I must admit I didn't manage to relax very far, I was so annoyed at myself for not having started the introduction sooner :)

arabella Ella smiles

Wol Euler: so, that is the first version of this particular exercise.

Wol Euler: I usually find that it does broaden my awareness of my surroundings, as Aubergine said; I realize that there is far more going on around me than I had consciusly taken in before

Wol Euler: perhaps that entire senses were missing from what I thought was happening. It has happened that I became aware of smells during YS, which I hadn't noticed before

Wol Euler: I am usually concentrated in literally seeing.

Qt Core: sometimes even more, just letter seeing (in my case)

Wol Euler: heheheh

Qt Core: when only verbal/written comunication and inputs matter

Mickorod Renard: yes, sometimes I realise I am just a functioning machine,,then I have to remind myself of who and where I am

Wol Euler nods.

Geoff Baily: ;) yes

Wol Euler: (just by the way, I don't want this to be a lecture! please ask questions or offer comments)

Aubergine Mint: i have a question, kind of off topic

Wol Euler: fire away

Qt Core: for my exercise i noticed, more than usual the colors of my bed cover, mostly yellow

Aubergine Mint: when it is quiet for many minutes is it because many people are in IM conversations?

Aubergine Mint: or in a meditative state?

Wol Euler: well :)

Qt Core: sometimes just distracted ;-)

arabella Ella: sometimes just thinking

arabella Ella: or reflecting

Wol Euler: here I would say most likely meditation, my belief is that there is not much IMing going on.

Wol Euler: yes, thinking about what was said

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: I do a bit, like yesterday was trying to keep Liza informed,,as she was new here

arabella Ella: but i personally find it peaceful to be quiet here ... the environment is conducive to feeling a sense of peace when reflecting

Mickorod Renard: oops

Aubergine Mint: it's hard for a new person to know what is happening sometimes

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: maybe youre thinking to much in sl aubergine :)

Wol Euler: Though I must say, Aubergine, when you are at a dance club say, and there is silence, then it is highly likely that people are talking in IM :)

Geoff Baily: takes time to get used to

Aubergine Mint: i see

Wol Euler: but one does get used to it with practice :)

arabella Ella: do you mean ... to get used to on SL in general or here specifically?

Wol Euler: both :)

Wol Euler: but particularly SL. It's lifelike but not RL-like

Geoff Baily: both

Wol Euler: there is no "whisper in your ear" here, except for IM

arabella Ella nods

Wol Euler: if you were at a RL dance club and heard nobody speaking, you would still see their lips moving and know that they were talking privately to each other

Wol Euler: we don't see that here

arabella Ella: yes that is an interesting aspect

Aubergine Mint: thanks, i was wondering about that

Wol Euler smiles

Liza Deischer: Wol, youe said, YS is noticing what is around you?

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Liza Deischer: is that also what is in you?

Wol Euler: very much so! yes.

Wol Euler: "am I comfortable? am I angry? why are my fists clenched?"

Liza Deischer: ok

arabella Ella: yes it could involve emotions, pain, sorry, happiness, etc

arabella Ella: sorrow i meant

Wol Euler: the "seeing" is to be taken very loosely: think rather of experiencing in all ways that are open to you

Wol Euler: the word we commonly use is "appreciation"

Wol Euler: to see something as it is, without filtering it or judging it, ideally not even putting a name onto it.

Liza Deischer: ok

Liza Deischer: I ask because yesterday there was also talk about BS and ES

Wol Euler: right.

Wol Euler: Being Seeing is the higher version, if you like.

Wol Euler: you might think of that as visualization, perhaps.

Wol Euler: YS is letting yourself appreciate whatever is around or in you.

Liza Deischer: BS toches symbolism?

Liza Deischer: touches

Wol Euler: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe :)

Liza Deischer: that's a long mmmmm :)

Wol Euler: the same ideal would apply, to see without judging or labelling

Wol Euler: I hesitated how to answer, neiher "yes" nor "no" is strictly correct as I understand it.

Liza Deischer: ok

Liza Deischer: and ES?

Wol Euler: ES is somewhere between the two. if YS is what you can see, ES tries to see the world from the viewpoint of an enlightened being

Wol Euler: your viewpoint, if you'd been meditating for 87 years and already reached Nirvana, as it were

Wol Euler: but were still somehow sitting on the same cushion in the same room :)

Wol Euler: would the fully enlightened you see things differently to the current you?

Wol Euler looks at the clock. Shall we do that right now, at the bell?

arabella Ella: i think Wol is doing an excellent job with her descriptions but

Mickorod Renard: bs?

arabella Ella: i think it is also important to add that

Wol Euler: es

Mickorod Renard: I thought es was to be avoided

arabella Ella: one needs practice and patience with these concepts as learning how to use them says lots more than a mere description

Wol Euler: so let's practice now.

arabella Ella: :)

--BELL--

Aubergine Mint: what if I don't want to reach Nirvana as such, but to feel less egocentered and more compassionate, is that BS?

Wol Euler: yes, ara is right: Listening to me talk about meditation wihtout actually practicing is like listening to me talk about knitting. I

Wol Euler: It won't do you a damned bit of good unless you actually pick up a pair of needles and some wool :)

arabella Ella: but dont get me wrong Wol you are explaining it all so nicely

arabella Ella: honestly

Liza Deischer: true but you do use the names

Liza Deischer: does BS suggests a soul?

arabella Ella: but what i meant is that it is a skill and skills require regular practice

Geoff Baily: its very helpful

Mickorod Renard: were we supposed to be doing BS then?

Liza Deischer: and knowing what you need to do

Wol Euler nods in all directions.

Mickorod Renard: he he he

Qt Core: i don't think i got to es, i only thought that i enl8ightened being would be more forgiving to me about the mess on my desk than myself

arabella Ella: i would argue we are all human beings with all our fallible selves and weaknesses

Wol Euler smiles. That's a start!

Mickorod Renard: you know what,,,I dont know much about all this,,yet I have been comming here for ages...yet, I was speaking to a friend today, who goes to regular meditation sessions in rl,,and he thought I was some master at the art

Wol Euler: heheheh

arabella Ella: :)

Wol Euler: perhaps you know more than you think you do.

Mickorod Renard: something must be rubbing off on me

Geoff Baily: nice

arabella Ella: i know what you mean Mick as I still feel a novice too

Wol Euler: perhaps you have picked up habits of mind from listening to us, joining in the pauses and exercises

Qt Core: that's the coolnes of PaB ;-)

Mickorod Renard: just dont ask what

Wol Euler: someone said earlier that s/he wasn't aiming for Nirvana, I think.

Aubergine Mint: that was me

Wol Euler: that's fine, wonderful in fact. Because you have company, I am not either.

Wol Euler: I'm going to be on the planet for quite a few more karmic cycles yet, and am fully OK with that :)

Wol Euler: I'm here (in PaB) as I said, principally to find some tools to help me deal with my life; and I have found them

arabella Ella: that sounds so lovely Wol

Wol Euler: I use the exercises as centring and mind-clearing tools, for dealing with stress and the people who inflict it

Liza Deischer: that is interessting because it tells me something about your goal, your motivation

Wol Euler: some here might be horrified that I set my sights so low :)

Aubergine Mint: what are karmic cycles?

arabella Ella: Ah ... Wol .... I need you as my mentor too ....

Aubergine Mint: i don't think your sights are low

Liza Deischer: in Buddhism its the first goal

Mickorod Renard: I find that too wOL, although I never came here for that purpose

Aubergine Mint: a more realistic goal perhaps

Liza Deischer: to achieve a better live

Qt Core: imagining starting meditating (or something like it) right in front of people annoying me 

arabella Ella: sounds good to me Qt .... i may be tempted to try that too

Wol Euler: Aubergine, that was partly in gest. The cycle of karma is a long view of cause and effect, slowly moving up or down the chain of Being towards enlightenment

Wol Euler: karma itself being hte idea that what I do in this life influences the next. If I behave like Mother Theresa, I'll "move up" a level; if I behave badly, I move down

Wol Euler: that's a very much oversimplified description, if you are curious you should ask Storm. He can tell you much more and better than I.

Aubergine Mint: so you think there is a "next life"?

Wol Euler: what I meant was that I am not aiming to work my way up the ladder and become "free", my goals here are very much more immediate

Liza Deischer: a better life refers to more opportunities to get an even better life speaking in terms of becoming a better human being

Wol Euler: yes.

Mickorod Renard: Stim is also well versed in karma too,,and samsara

Wol Euler: mmhmm, right; Storm came to mind first because he explicitly believes in Karma and talks about it more

Wol Euler: have you met Stim yet? his sessions are monday 1pm I think

Aubergine Mint: yes i came to a monday session but he didn't say much

Aubergine Mint: very quiet

Wol Euler: about the "next life"? I don't know. I've learned in the last few years not to rule out things that I cannot find physical proof against.

arabella Ella: perhaps you may need to try to engage Stim when he is quiet

Calvino Rabeni: Nice for you to claim that position Wol - many assume they are supposed to choose the "best" sounding thing on the spiritual menu :)

Wol Euler smiles

Mickorod Renard: you may like Ways of Knowing on thursdays

Mickorod Renard: at Kira

Wol Euler: (a workshop at the Kira Cafe)

Wol Euler: that's tomorrow, right? 2pm

arabella Ella: yes

Mickorod Renard: its on at 14;00 hrs

--BELL--

Wol Euler: Aubergine, is that OK? did that answer your question?

Aubergine Mint: yes, thanks for sharing all that

Mickorod Renard: ok folks, I must head home

Liza Deischer: ok Mick

Wol Euler: bye mick, goodnight ara, take care

Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol

Liza Deischer: see you

Geoff Baily: bye arabella

arabella Ella: i must go too nite everyone and thanks Wol for your clear explanations :)

Mickorod Renard: bye,,hope to ssee you all soon

Wol Euler: I want to step back a bit. Liza asked a question that I have been putting off for a quarter-hour now :)

Liza Deischer: bye both of you

Qt Core: night mick, ara

Wol Euler: [13:48] Liza Deischer: does BS suggests a soul?

Geoff Baily: bye Mick

Aubergine Mint: bye everyone, thanks again Wol

Liza Deischer: bye aubergine

Wol Euler: bye aubergine, take care.

Qt Core: bye aubergine

Liza Deischer: yes thats my question

Qt Core: wouldn't a mind be enough ?

Geoff Baily: bye Aubergine

Liza Deischer: because you place ES between YS and BS

Wol Euler: yes, that's how I see it (and Pema too, these are his terms)

Qt Core: ops, read it wrong, ys instead of bs

Wol Euler: I struggled for a long time to figure out what Being meant in this group, in the context of these practices

Wol Euler: Being is ... everything. All-inclusive.

Wol Euler: not God (however you define that) but including God

Wol Euler: not the soul (however you define them) but including all souls

Wol Euler: I found two images that helped me to grasp that.

Wol Euler: One is to think of Mister Being, the great big All-Of-Everything-There-Is, lying in the bathtub :)

Wol Euler: and raising his hand slowly, palm up fingers apart, out of the water

Wol Euler: imagine yourself very small and very close to him

Wol Euler: you see the fingertips break the surface, and think that they are separate phenomena

Wol Euler: isolated from each other, not related

Wol Euler: but htey are part of the same hand

Liza Deischer: nice image

Liza Deischer: :)

Wol Euler: "No man is an island" as the poet said.

Wol Euler: our souls do connect.

Geoff Baily: nice

Wol Euler: and our atoms do as well.

Liza Deischer: but initialy I woud think that is ES

Wol Euler: yes, I'm still trying to answer whether Being is the soul :)

Wol Euler: Being includes the soul.

Liza Deischer: ok, sorry

Wol Euler: consider perhaps that our souls are a line drawn across a sheet of paper

Wol Euler: and that the paper is floating three-dimensionally through the space of a room

Wol Euler: there are dimensions other than those we live in

Wol Euler: time is like this too, the time that we experience passing by is very different to what the physicists calculate with

Wol Euler: and that is different again to the time that God would live in (if you happen to believe in God)

Wol Euler: we are -- the world is -- small instances of Being manifested in a bit of space and time that we can see

Wol Euler: the other analogy that I found really useful is to think of our SL avatars

Wol Euler: and how they relate to us.

Wol Euler: this is particularly interesting for those who have more htan one avatar!

Wol Euler: the SL avatar is to the RL person, as that person is to Being.

Wol Euler: we are avatars of one Being.

Wol Euler: so (finally the answer :) it's not really correct to say that Being is the soul, when we talk about Being Seeing

Wol Euler: because that is too small, too isolated.

Wol Euler: Being Seeing envisions everything that exists seeing itself, being itself

Liza Deischer: thank you

Qt Core: don't really like this analogy, is Being controlling us ?

Wol Euler: no more than gravity does :)

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: i think i now understand the differences you make a littlge better

Wol Euler: or perhaps to reverse the question: do you control what your toenails do?

Qt Core: then being in this case would be the ram of linden servers ;-)

Qt Core: yes, i move them (ok, i move the toes) and cut them i have their fate in my hands

Wol Euler smiles. Your fate is also not in your hands, QT, or do you know now the day on which you will die?

Geoff Baily: thankyou Wol, very helpful,

Wol Euler: good, I'm pleased. thank you liza, geoff

Geoff Baily: I must go now bye all

Wol Euler: bye geoff, take care.

Liza Deischer: bye geoff

Qt Core: no, obviously, i was going woth me being the Being of my toenails

Geoff Baily: thanks again

Wol Euler: that's actually a pretty good analogy, I think. I do not make my toenails grow, I trust that they do, and that they will not turn into flowers.

Wol Euler: they do their own growing, and sometimes they do surprise me. Then I have to trim them a little.

Wol Euler: and that trimming might well seem to them as random and unmotivated as a car accident does to those involved in it

Wol Euler: I really like the image of us as lines on a page, to think of Being looking down onto the page

Wol Euler: Being would have an entirely different understanding than we can.

Wol Euler: because it has dimensions that are not available to us.

Wol Euler: us thinking about Being is like those tiny flies that only live 24 hours meeting Mount Everest. They have no hope of understanding what the mountain is.

Wol Euler: they are in the wrong dimensions for that.

Liza Deischer: you sounded angry about this concept (including all concepts) QT

Liza Deischer: like you still have a question

Qt Core: maybe it is only one ;-)

Qt Core: sorry.wrong tenses... i'd like it would be only one ;-)

Wol Euler smiles

Qt Core: i was just a little shocked by the sl analogy, it was like a weight put on me, a feeling about Being controlling me, not just existing, mostly unaware of little me

Wol Euler: yes, I see what you mean. I hadn't actually thought it through that far

Wol Euler: but actually, you know: you'd be surprised by the extent to which SL avatars have lives of their own

Wol Euler: my avs are quite different from each other, they have their own desires and styles, and these sometimes surprise me

Qt Core: the us being Being and a bodypart being us would be better considering for us, a lone hair

Wol Euler: though obviously "I" do steer them

Qt Core: are we aware of all of them, no, but they are still part of us, of Being

Wol Euler: yes, also a good analogy.

Wol Euler: and also ties into my image of Mister Being in the bath :)))

--BELL--

Qt Core: time to go, bye all

Wol Euler: yes, me too, it#s late.

Liza Deischer: bye QT

Liza Deischer: same here

Wol Euler: goodnight qt

Wol Euler: bye liza, bye calvino. Take care.

Qt Core: 'night all

Calvino Rabeni: Bye,all :)

Liza Deischer: thanks Wol for you explanations

Wol Euler: my pleasure, I'll try to close my mouth occasionally next time :)

Liza Deischer: meaning?

Wol Euler: that I think I talk too much.

Liza Deischer: didnt notice

Wol Euler smiles. Thank you.

Liza Deischer: yet :)

Wol Euler: goodnight, take care.

Liza Deischer: goodnight