2009.12.03 19:00 - Dream Research

The Guardian for this meeting was Paradise Tennant. The comments are by Corvuscorva, Fox, Calvino and Paradise.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Heya!
Paradise Tennant: hey corvi :)
Paradise Tennant: how are you :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm well, you?
Paradise Tennant: very well thanks :)
Paradise Tennant: happy it is Thursday .. so easy to become completely absorbed in busy :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nodsnods
Paradise Tennant: lol nice typo :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..what have you been thinking about this week?
Paradise Tennant: ahh
Paradise Tennant: blinks
Paradise Tennant: been thinking about dreaming alot
Paradise Tennant: waking dreams
Paradise Tennant: sleeping dreams
Paradise Tennant: the nature and texture of dreams :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...tell me about the nature of dreams?
Paradise Tennant: hmmm
Paradise Tennant: I guess I have been trying to see the line .. where our waking moments .. become real and are dreaming moments are just dreams
Paradise Tennant: fuzzy line
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks about this...the same fuzzy line as perception and objective reality?
Paradise Tennant: nodsnods :)
Paradise Tennant: we have snow :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we do...I wonder how that happened?
Paradise Tennant: not me ..but it is lovely :)
Paradise Tennant: we have not not a flake of snow in toronto yet ..
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Paradise Tennant: :) maybe santa .. will be next always wanted to have a chat with him
Paradise Tennant: dog actually got a letter from santa today .. a friend's idea :)
Paradise Tennant: i digress my apologies you were saying ... perception and objective reality :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs.
Paradise Tennant: I guess what alway give me pause is how .. if this is all just perception and not objective reality ..how can our minds be so big and then I try to think about dreams and how .. it seems they are very big too :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't ever mind. I think about alot of things in this time. For me..I am not sure what can be said about the 9 seconds
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :) gtsy
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I would agreee there is no objective reality..but there are bits that we can mostly agree on.
Calvino Rabeni: U 2 :)
Paradise Tennant: we are talking about perception and objective reality .. alluding to dreams both sleeping and waking :)
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: always good when there is agreement :)
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: what are the bits we can mostly agree on corvu :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh..things like..."it's cold today" when it's 32 below.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or.."atoms"
Paradise Tennant: yed
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or...this cushion is blue
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but without losing sight of them...it's clear that what we make of that is "perception"
Calvino Rabeni: I can agree on - you are a person and I am too :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins, nods
Paradise Tennant: hiya fox :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good starting point for a conversation...
Fox Monacular: Hi Paradise, Corvi, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: GDay Fox!
Fox Monacular: it's snowing in PaB tonight :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: he fox
Corvuscorva Nightfire: *hey
Paradise Tennant: yes really like .. it .. :)
Calvino Rabeni: I should have dressed more warmly.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods and tosses you a jacket
Fox Monacular: thanks, Corvi:)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: was just looking for mittens lol to go with it :) alas ..none to be had
Calvino Rabeni: that's better :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: very welcome..
Paradise Tennant: we have been talking of dreams in terms of subjective perception and objective reality fox .. how is you dream research coming along :)
Fox Monacular: hmmm, these days not coming along too fast:) but i've been working on an article about how in dreams we are
Fox Monacular: embodied in our dreaming and real bodies
Calvino Rabeni: Muscles somewhat paralyzed or inhibited
Calvino Rabeni: during dreaming
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely, but there's still awareness
Paradise Tennant: :) simultaneously in a dream body .. while in a real body
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve gtsy :)
Fox Monacular: for instance, when you're sick, or something hurts - often it produces distict dreams
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Heya, Steve
Fox Monacular: Hi Steve
Paradise Tennant: what are district dreams
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Calvino Rabeni: has an influence, that is
Fox Monacular: well, sometimes physical pain gets literally incorporated into dream
Fox Monacular: or symbolically
Fox Monacular: and then there is a long tradition of diagnosing physical condition through dream imagery
stevenaia Michinaga: ooops
Fox Monacular: for instance, I had a dream I talked to someone... and then they punched me in the face... well, I woke up with a tooth ache
Fox Monacular: that's pretty straightforward
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: did Storm leave snow everywhere?
Calvino Rabeni: WOuld you say, the toothache caused the dream image in a sense? The dream is an interpretation of the toothache?
Fox Monacular: I think so, yes
Paradise Tennant: it was snowing ..now we have drifts :)
Paradise Tennant: hmm or vice versa ?
Fox Monacular: :)
Paradise Tennant: could your dream have caused the toothache
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it is hard to know if the dream and waking minds are communicating by a symbol, or by an observation of the body
Fox Monacular: hopefully a dream punch cannot cause rl pain
Fox Monacular: right
Calvino Rabeni: I had a drawm about doing what was discussed in the PAB session before going to sleep
Calvino Rabeni: Dream
Fox Monacular: often when you fall asleep in a strange position, there are dreams of bizarre bodily movements
Fox Monacular: was it precognitive dream:)?
Calvino Rabeni: No, not that one, but I had another that matched a future event.
Calvino Rabeni: Coincidence maybe.
Paradise Tennant: what was the event ?
Calvino Rabeni: Or a subtle communication earlier.
Calvino Rabeni: I went to a 2-day lecture series. On friday night I listened to a lecture.
Calvino Rabeni: That night I dreamed about walking backwards a lot. Kind of unique
Fox Monacular: interesting!
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: metaphor ?
Calvino Rabeni: THen the next morning, the lexturer said - Life is like walking backwards.
Paradise Tennant: :)
Calvino Rabeni: So it strich me that the metaphor was in both places
Calvino Rabeni: but I apparently had it first
Calvino Rabeni: *struck
Fox Monacular: this is very cool
Calvino Rabeni: I don't recallany "setup" cures in Friday lecture
Calvino Rabeni: Might have been the metaphor occurred to each of us in a subconscious way
Paradise Tennant: yes very very cool :)
Calvino Rabeni: I don't call it a "vision of the future" - just don't know
Calvino Rabeni: Carryovers in one person are common - you dream what you were thinking
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes translated into symbols
Fox Monacular: yes, that happens to me a lot too... whole phrases even, or I dream of a person and just know that he's going to call or email
Paradise Tennant: yes nods
Fox Monacular: so the question is then - whether the dream 'attunes'
Paradise Tennant: happens to me waking too. think of someone and they call
Calvino Rabeni: Once I dreamed about someone I had not seen in about a year, that they were moving from a house, and on the street (in the dream) I saw person X
Fox Monacular: :)
Calvino Rabeni: So that day I went to the house to see, and it had just been vacated, so I went down the block, and there was person X, in a somewhat unlikely location
Paradise Tennant: wow
Calvino Rabeni: That one had more than one symbol in common
Calvino Rabeni: Dream research that is based on introspection doesn't get respect, because of the experimenter bias
Calvino Rabeni: But seems worthwhile nonetheless
Calvino Rabeni: I have one I'm working on.
Fox Monacular: yes, it is very very difficult to study \
Fox Monacular: tell us more!
Calvino Rabeni: Not so hard to study, hard to prove things is the problem.
Calvino Rabeni: Purely introspective.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: I am trying to get observations on the stability of dream objects.
Calvino Rabeni: I mentioned "confabulation" in another session
stevenaia Michinaga: night
Calvino Rabeni: People with brain damage often have no /little short term memory
Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve L)
Calvino Rabeni: But their impression is of continuity
Fox Monacular: take care steve
Corvuscorva Nightfire: night, Stevie...I need to go too.
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Steve
Fox Monacular: good night Corvi
Paradise Tennant: nite nite corvu
Calvino Rabeni: And I think Fox or someone said, STM is innibited in dream state
Calvino Rabeni: Bye corvy
Fox Monacular: so so you think dream continuity is a waking confabulation?
Calvino Rabeni: That is the purpose of the observation, to look at that.
Paradise Tennant: what is a confabulation ?
Calvino Rabeni: SOmeone else, a dreaming researcher, said that dream objects are very unstable
Calvino Rabeni: I'll get that in a second, ok? :)
Fox Monacular: yes, many people who practice lucid dreaming too say that
Calvino Rabeni: That they have the appearance of stability but not the actuality
Calvino Rabeni: So the dreamer kind of makes it up again at each point in time,
Calvino Rabeni: pretending there is more continuity than there is.
Fox Monacular: perhaps the same could be said about waking cognition too sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: Confabulation is a theory that there are many simultaneous perceptions / interpretations going on, but we are only aware of one at a time.
Calvino Rabeni: Although others happen unconsciously
Calvino Rabeni: In people with damage, it is obvious to others
Calvino Rabeni: But it is also considered by some to be the normal way people create their perceived world
Calvino Rabeni: so apparently rapidly
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway the dream observations - if I have any lucidity - is to form memories of the things I see, and then compare them.
Calvino Rabeni: Like, this is a car I'm riding in. (try to remember). Later it seems to be a boat.
Paradise Tennant: you keep a dream diary and object catalogue :)?
Calvino Rabeni: Then I try to recall - hey what was this earlier?
Calvino Rabeni: No this is during the dream state.
Paradise Tennant: ahh
Fox Monacular: so are you actively cultivating lucidity to bring in more 'wake-reflexive' dream repots
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Fox Monacular: so I suppose you're writing these down?
Calvino Rabeni: Another kind of catalog, is that there are places I "revisit" in dreams.
Calvino Rabeni: And when I go there again, they seem familiar, so I try to remember what they were like "last time"
Calvino Rabeni: Whether they were different.
Fox Monacular: interesting
Fox Monacular: do you have a lot of data right now?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't write down much - occasionally - but my recall has gotten better
Fox Monacular: nods
Fox Monacular: you know, it could be a good case study
Calvino Rabeni: Not in the sense I could hand it to someone. If I wanted to do that I would write it down more.
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Fox Monacular: with one well trained introspective subject
Calvino Rabeni: I am working on the skills at this point
Calvino Rabeni: It is not an obsession with me - like some people are fascinated and focus on it as a primary interest
Fox Monacular: sure, but it would be interesting if you took note of the skills, and then of the progression within dreaming
Calvino Rabeni: You've probably read the lucid dreaming books
Fox Monacular: some, yes
Calvino Rabeni: I may start putting that into the journal.
Calvino Rabeni: They take it more seriously than I, doing things to develop, etc.
Fox Monacular: I mean, it could be a cool case study, like you write what are the skills specifically that you're cultivating
Fox Monacular: and then you provide dream reports
Calvino Rabeni: Like herbs, or drinking water, or being slightly uncomfortable
Fox Monacular: and how they change over time
Calvino Rabeni: It is a slow process
Fox Monacular: well, there are
Calvino Rabeni: But that's ok, unless I had a research deadline :)
Fox Monacular: 'naturals'
Fox Monacular: some people have lucidity easily, others have to train
Calvino Rabeni: I'll tell you my main "theory" for the practice.
Fox Monacular: some even don't know the word 'lucid' , but are lucid all the time
Fox Monacular: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Not a recommendation, just what I'm tinvestigating.
Fox Monacular: listening
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've been asking people about that, Fox.
Calvino Rabeni: "Do you know you
Calvino Rabeni: re dreaming? " "How can you tell when you're dreaming?"
Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, I hear - "well I don't know" or "can't tell".
Calvino Rabeni: I was surprised by that.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, FOx, it helps not to use technical words
Calvino Rabeni: Because before you get to hear their experience, they want to know if they are using the word right.
Fox Monacular: yes, often
Fox Monacular: but today with internet things are greatly simplified
Fox Monacular: I mean, these words are there only as conventions...
Calvino Rabeni: Too much baggage sometimes
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
Calvino Rabeni: You get the "let's define our terms" game
Fox Monacular: but it does helo to separate things sometimes... even if arbitrarily
Calvino Rabeni: WHich probably wasn't the goal
Fox Monacular: althought when you need to communicate your idea it helps to define things:)
Paradise Tennant: :) sorry I am going to have excuse my self getting very late here and I have an early morning ..thank you both for the interesting discussion I will look forward to reading it :)
Calvino Rabeni: That is one way, but some things are not suited to it
Fox Monacular: good night Paradise!
Calvino Rabeni: Good bye Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: good nite fox ..cal .. sweet dreams :)
Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean
Calvino Rabeni: I will
Fox Monacular: still, one needs to play the game!
Fox Monacular: and perfect it in the process
Calvino Rabeni: Good to learn to get around it too.
Calvino Rabeni: Too much baggage comes along with the game.
Calvino Rabeni: It depends on who you ar talking to and their role
Calvino Rabeni: As a language game
Calvino Rabeni: You have to do it carefully with academic types
Fox Monacular: I think that when you realize that you can't quite define something, then perhaps you were not understanding it well yourself... I mean as something other than something else... sometimes you need to find new referents
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: yes, this is a huge problem with academic types! We become too careful with words!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but suppose the thing itself is not what you think. Then you can't refine a description of it.
Fox Monacular: probably most things are not what we thinl
Calvino Rabeni: Being careful is a good skill, but might get in the way of communication :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: ok, sorry, baby awoke
Fox Monacular: thanks for the conversation!good night!
Calvino Rabeni: Good night
Calvino Rabeni: (: note to Log - a loose end about dream technique, Fox will be interested :)