2009.12.27 13:00 - Rules, roles and trains

Wol Euler was guardian for this session. Comments will be added later.

 

Bertram Jacobus: Rwhaow - yaku ! already here (?) :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bert

Bertram Jacobus: i write in english - for the log - sry (?) :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno, maybe some ppl might pick up a bit german through the log on the contrary :D

Bertram Jacobus: hehe. auch richtig ;-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: english ist kampflos die weltsprache geworden in deutschland :P

Yakuzza Lethecus: die franzosen wehren sich mehr

Bertram Jacobus: not only in germany - worldwide ! and i support it : it's the easiest language worldwide as well i guess -

Yakuzza Lethecus: in frankreich und spanien kann man kaum erwarten das die menschen englisch reden :)

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: i disagree : in france i make experiences that more and more people can speak english too

Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno, it's just easy because it's easy to keep contact with it but from what i told esperanto is much easier but it wasn't taught since middleschool :)

Bertram Jacobus: hey wol ! :-)

Wol Euler: hello bert, yaku

Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend wol :)

Wol Euler: schönen nachmittag :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eden

Bertram Jacobus: Ähm - sry ? here it's 10 pm (?) :-)

Wol Euler: hello eden, merry christmas

Bertram Jacobus: hello eden and liza :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: she's in kanada right now :P

Wol Euler: ah, but I am not "here", bert, I'm in canada

Bertram Jacobus: he ? :o)

Liza Deischer: hi all

Wol Euler: hello liza, merry christmas

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza

Yakuzza Lethecus: and welcom zon

Liza Deischer: hi Zon

Zon Quar: heya

Wol Euler: hello zon

Bertram Jacobus: hi zon :-)

Bertram Jacobus: what are you doing in canada wol ? (!) :-)

Wol Euler: visiting family, I grew up in Toronto

Eden Haiku: Hello Yakuzza, Bertram, Liza and invisible Zon. Wol are you still in Toronto?

Wol Euler: mmhmm, four more days

Bertram Jacobus: nice . wide country, big ...

Wol Euler: disappointingly warm, it's +5 and raining in toronto right now

Eden Haiku: It is raining in Montreal today. How is the weather in Toronto?

Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. and - is there more freedom in canada then in germany ?

Eden Haiku: Well, it is telapthy with a bit of lag it seems Wol...

Wol Euler: I've no idea, Bert, what does "freedom" mean? :)

Wol Euler smiles at Eden.

Eden Haiku: hello Zen, my twitter friend!

Liza Deischer: hi Zen

Zon Quar: hi zen

Wol Euler: hello zen, merry christmas

Zen Arado: Hi all

Bertram Jacobus: freedom ? in the end enlightenment i think, something absolute. but before : more or less boundries wol (?)

Bertram Jacobus: hi zen :-)

Wol Euler: more boundaries, I think, bert: more and different rules than I am used to, different roles than I usually play

Zen Arado: yes Eden :)

Bertram Jacobus: whaow - i wouldn't have expected that

Wol Euler shrugs. Family enforces its own traditions and rules

Zen Arado: and expectations...

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Zen Arado: for how you should behave

Eden Haiku: Yes, family is like a cloud of untold rules and programs we run as soon as we gather isn'it?

Bertram Jacobus: a friend of mine, many years ago, was very confused about problems we had on a tour through the former ddr (eastern germany - in that times part of the soviet block) - may be that he was not used to that . and now you not used to the canadian rules ?

Wol Euler: indeed.

Zen Arado: nods

Zen Arado: or told rules

Zen Arado: :)

Eden Haiku: Also...

Eden Haiku: Different family styles...

Bertram Jacobus: hi alianaluz :-)

Zen Arado: Hi Alianaluz

Wol Euler: feel free to join us

Zen Arado: I hear nice Bach?

Zen Arado: ah

Eden Haiku: I see a little cat with a red ribbon!

Alianaluz Rivera: hello

Liza Deischer: hi alianaluz

Alianaluz Rivera: its a tiny polar bear:)

Zon Quar: hi ali

Eden Haiku: Hello!

Alianaluz Rivera: hello zon

Liza Deischer: :-)

Alianaluz Rivera: hello eden

Eden Haiku: Nice violin...

Alianaluz Rivera: pardon, i didnt know it was still attached

Wol Euler: have you been here before, Ali?

Alianaluz Rivera: i dont want to distrub you

Alianaluz Rivera: i dont know. im random map-hopping

Alianaluz Rivera: where is "here?"

Wol Euler: we are a meditation group called "play as being"

Wol Euler: if you are interested, I'll give you an introduciton in IM;

Eden Haiku: Yes, please feel welcomed to sit with us Alianaluz.

Zen Arado: we talk more than we meditate :)

Bertram Jacobus: lol

Liza Deischer: :-)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: so, how are we all feeling? Does anyone have anything to discuss?

Eden Haiku: Feeling good!

Zen Arado: :)

Zen Arado: that good Eden?

Eden Haiku: I was answering Wol question...

Zen Arado: I know :)

Alianaluz Rivera: pardon, i crashed

Eden Haiku: That is a nice gesture Bertram!

Wol Euler: np, wb

Bertram Jacobus: np at all alianaluz , wb ;-)

Alianaluz Rivera: thank you

Eden Haiku: Welcome back Alianaluz!

Alianaluz Rivera: thank you eden

Zen Arado: Ali reminded me of a video I saw on Facebook

Bertram Jacobus: hehe . i like it too eden. part of an ao, if one flies not high enough ... :-)

Alianaluz Rivera: ja?

Eden Haiku: I didn't know polar bears purred?

Alianaluz Rivera: what was the video?

Alianaluz Rivera: teeny tiny polar ones do:)

Alianaluz Rivera: they purr and make wookie-like sounds

Eden Haiku: Nice ;-)

Zen Arado: it showed a famous violinist playing the Bach Chaconne for unaccompanied vio;in

Bertram Jacobus: lol :-)

Alianaluz Rivera: cool zen:)

Zen Arado: in a subway in Washington

Alianaluz Rivera: washington...

Alianaluz Rivera: state?

Zen Arado: but most just walked on by and never noticed

Zen Arado: city

Alianaluz Rivera: i love to listen to street musicians

Zen Arado: but this was a concert violinist

Zen Arado: and nobody noticed !

Wol Euler: :)

Zen Arado: so what is the moral of that ?

Eden Haiku: Oh and nobody took notice of him? They did the same experince in Montreal subway.

Wol Euler: dress as a polar bear to escape detection?

Zen Arado: :)

Eden Haiku: A few people stopped by him and said he should give concerts! ;-)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Zen Arado: ah yes similar EDen

Zon Quar: gtg, c u later aa

Wol Euler: bye zon, take care

Zen Arado: bye Zon

Eden Haiku: Good night Zon!

Liza Deischer: the ones who know what music is all about, will stop

Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like alianaluz ! :-)

Bertram Jacobus: bye zon

Liza Deischer: the others are nog able to recognize it

Zen Arado: yes but there wre surpriusingly few

Zen Arado: everybody engrossed in their problems

Eden Haiku: Same here,

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: some can't stop, need to be on time

Bertram Jacobus: not many may have a profund classical music knowledge or feeling ...

Liza Deischer: they think...

Eden Haiku: Yes, the way we pass precious things without ever noticing.

Zen Arado: yes

Zen Arado: makes you realize how important the setting is too

Zen Arado: the trappings of the concert hall

Liza Deischer: yes, but that isnt necessarily a bad thing

Zen Arado: thinking.....

Liza Deischer: sometimes you need to find the right places

Liza Deischer: and when you found them

Liza Deischer: it is more easy to open up

Liza Deischer: or talk about things you normally dont do

Zen Arado: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040401721.html

Liza Deischer: if we weren't in this setting

Eden Haiku: Thanks for the link.

Liza Deischer: we probably wouldnt be talking like this

Wol Euler nods to Liza

Eden Haiku: yes Liza.

Wol Euler: though there are other settings that work well for serious, intimate conversation betwen strangers. Trains at night, for example

Eden Haiku: Trains at night yes, it is so poetic!

Zen Arado: can be easy to open to a stranger you know you will never see again

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Eden Haiku: Strange and mysterious.

Bertram Jacobus: i thought exactly the same word eden

Bertram Jacobus: the first one you wrote ;-)

Eden Haiku: ;-)

Zen Arado: hehe getting carried away here

Liza Deischer: true, but you talk probably about other things

Eden Haiku: poetic?

Bertram Jacobus: yes :-)

Eden Haiku: carried away into another realm Zen?

Zen Arado: the Orient Express ?

Zen Arado: :)

Eden Haiku: Did you take it?

Zen Arado: no

--BELL--

Eden Haiku: ;-)

Zen Arado: I once was on a train 2 days in Australia though

Zen Arado: very boring !

Liza Deischer: :-)

Wol Euler: heheh

Wol Euler: the null-arbor plain?

Eden Haiku: I remember a very poetic night train ride in Italy years ago. Talking with an Italian stranger. Conversation was in Italian, and hum..., I don't speak italian. There was a lot of kissing involved ;-)

Zen Arado: no - from Cairns to Brisbane

Bertram Jacobus: you did not know fitting meditation methods yet zen ? ;-)

Zen Arado: 1100 miles

Wol Euler: awww, eden, how sweet

Wol Euler: btw eden, check your IMs :)

Eden Haiku: 1100 miles, that is more than the Transiberian is it?

Zen Arado: very romantic Eden

Zen Arado: don't know

Eden Haiku: You launched a great subject Wol. Trains, at night. Wow!

Bertram Jacobus: whaow - kissing with an italian stranger ? very unusual ! (?) :-)

Wol Euler smiles

Zen Arado: I once rode a freight train

Eden Haiku: A bit cliche, yes, but hey...was very nice!

Eden Haiku: A freight train? Where to Zen?

Bertram Jacobus: but ... in reality ... very rare i think ... whaow again ... :-)

Zen Arado: from Townsville to Brisbane in an open goods carriage

Zen Arado: Italian romance more interesting :)

Bertram Jacobus: but tramp romantic also nice ... ;-)

Wol Euler: :)

Zen Arado: box car Willie :)

Bertram Jacobus: lol

Eden Haiku: Tramp romantci very Kerouac Dharma Buns and all that... ;-)

Bertram Jacobus: :-)

Zen Arado: no Zennies around in Australia then though

Eden Haiku: Why my IM Wol?

Zen Arado: but Queenslanders very laid back ppl

Zen Arado: :)

Wol Euler: because I've been sending you messages that seem not to be arriving :/

Zen Arado: Oh

Eden Haiku: Oh...let me see...

Zen Arado: train ride invites ?

Zen Arado: :)

Wol Euler: :)

Bertram Jacobus: i'm a bit tired . so i leave . have a good time all - and all please ... :-)

Eden Haiku: I'm really a technotwit with Twitter ;-)

Zen Arado: nite Bert

Liza Deischer: bye bert

Wol Euler: ciao, bert, schlaf gut

Bertram Jacobus: ty all :-))

Zen Arado: me too Eden

Eden Haiku: Bye Bertram. You look so good in this comfy sweater!

Zen Arado: I rarely use it

Bertram Jacobus: tyty :-))

Zen Arado: Hi Cal

Wol Euler: hello calvino, merry christmas

Eden Haiku: Hi Calvino

Liza Deischer: hi Cal

Calvino Rabeni: Hello all, how's the session?

Zen Arado: flights of fantasy here tonight Cal

Zen Arado: exotic train rides with strangers

Liza Deischer: Im leaving too

Liza Deischer: see you all next time

Eden Haiku: Wol brought this topic up ;-)

Wol Euler: bye liza, take care.

Zen Arado: bye Liza

Liza Deischer: bye

Eden Haiku: Goodnight Liza!

Zen Arado: nice to use our imaginations too

Calvino Rabeni: The topic is "exotic train rides with strangers" ??

Zen Arado: although it was memories

Zen Arado: chains of associations

Zen Arado: I love train rides

Calvino Rabeni: And I also

Zen Arado: would love to travel across America that way

Zen Arado: and Canadian Rockies

Wol Euler nods.

Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to take the Darjeeling

Wol Euler: it's the best wy to see the world, I htink.

Eden Haiku: Have you gone through the Rockies by train Wol?

Zen Arado: so relaxed

Calvino Rabeni: It has great advantages

Wol Euler: in both directions :) but many years ago

Eden Haiku: The movie Darjeeling was so cool!

--BELL--

Zen Arado: Indian trains would be very crowded though

Eden Haiku: I never did. I flew and country-skied at Banff. On a perfect day! Sunny, lots of snow. But no train ride through these mountains, unfortunately.

Wol Euler: even the tops and outsides of them are!

Calvino Rabeni: Watching the landscape roll past, out the door of an empty boxcar - romantic :)

Eden Haiku: Some Indian trains are very luxurious.

Calvino Rabeni: the hypnotic rhythm ... kachunk kachunk ... kachunk kachunk ...

Zen Arado: better if you have nice scenery though

Zen Arado: you can still do that I think Cal

Calvino Rabeni: Open west, mesas in the distance, cactuses, sage brush

Wol Euler sighs

Calvino Rabeni: Canyons, tunnels, bridges, rivers

Calvino Rabeni: You are carried, able to relax completely, take it all in

Eden Haiku: My goddaughter from India took a train ride in a mahradjah train with her American Mom. She said it was great but she was so shocked by what she saw through the windows, She was 12 then I think. First time she returned to India afetr seh was adopted as a one yar old baby.

Zen Arado: I felt so free doing that in Australia

Calvino Rabeni: Feeling of momentum, moving, but in an eternal present

Calvino Rabeni: moving but still. the best of both feelings

Zen Arado: so much poverty

Eden Haiku: My mother's dream was to go through the Rockies on a train ride. But her health did not permit her at the end. So she never did. ;-)

Zen Arado: sad

Wol Euler: you could go for her ...

Eden Haiku: My parents met in a train. A very romantic story. They were she13 and he 14. Going to college.

Zen Arado: so many things we never get to do in life

Wol Euler: awwwww ;)

Zen Arado: it goes so fast...

Eden Haiku: It goes so fast yes.

Zen Arado: very young...

Eden Haiku: Yes Wol, that would be something nice to do in her memory.

Wol Euler: train out, fly back :)

Wol Euler: take a week

Eden Haiku: He was going to agricultural school, she to the Nun's convent for high school.

Zen Arado: but few would take the time....

Zen Arado: want fast travel

Wol Euler: depends how you see it, a week on a train could be considered cheap accomodation

Calvino Rabeni: If you can get a sleeper car, it can be a kind of moving retreat

Zen Arado: yes true..

Eden Haiku: Yes. Did you enjoy it Wol?

Wol Euler nods to calvino

Wol Euler: yes, but you should also definitely get a place in the glass-dome observation car going htrough the mountains

Eden Haiku: Two different reservations?

Wol Euler: yes, eden, it was quite wonderful. I've done the middle section, prairies to toronto, several times since then

Wol Euler: no, you cannot reserve the observation car, you just go along and wait your turn

Zen Arado: sounds great

Wol Euler: (at least, that's how it was when I made the trip)

Calvino Rabeni: I was impressed by the trains in Germany

Calvino Rabeni: The way they support transferring from one to another

Calvino Rabeni: Not a feature of American trains

Wol Euler: mmhmm, and they connect to airports and local transit too

Eden Haiku: Wow! My English publisher is located in Victoria and he's supposed to invite me there for some readings. He postponed it because of cuts in the cultural funds. But I should consider going West on the train, yes, when the project materializes.

Wol Euler: very different kind of travel, but of course the distances are not comparable

Eden Haiku: European trains are so wonderfully practical!

Wol Euler: it takes about 20 hours to go from toronto around the top of Lake Superior

Wol Euler: that would get me from home to Moscow!

Zen Arado: very fast too

Zen Arado: TGV is very fast

Wol Euler: eden, great idea! you should suggest that

Calvino Rabeni: An american poet writing of trains, I wonder how it would seem to a non-native

Eden Haiku: I will, thanks to you.

Wol Euler smiles.

Calvino Rabeni: Most of the world I think knows something about the American West motif

Wol Euler whistles a Sergio Leone movie theme

Calvino Rabeni: yes, movies transfer, maybe better than poems

Zen Arado: what was the film about riding freight trains with Earnest Borgnine?

Eden Haiku: ;-)

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: I thought the following a gem

Wol Euler struggles for an Oscar Wilde reference ...

Calvino Rabeni: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLj1GwMvh8Y - Strannik shared that train poem with me one night

Calvino Rabeni: Somewhat long youtube performance

Wol Euler makes a note to view later (poor connection, can't do both at once)

Eden Haiku: And the one with Johnny Depp who was called William Blake but who wasn't the poet. Black and white by this Finnish director. Dead Man something by Jim Jarmusch yes.

Wol Euler: yesssssssss

Wol Euler: music by Neil Young

Eden Haiku: You loved that movie too Wol?

Wol Euler: very much so, and the soundtrack too

Eden Haiku: The ending when he is sent on a boat filled with flowers after his death?

Wol Euler: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112817/

Wol Euler: quite a brilliant film, highly rcommended

Eden Haiku: Thnaks for the Kerouac link Calvino.

Zen Arado: yes thanks - will watch later

Wol Euler: sent out *to* die, as I remember, wasn't he still alive as the boat pushed off?

Wol Euler: in any case, a very moving scene

Zen Arado: something so lonely about those train horns out in the West

Eden Haiku: I'm listening to the video, writing an email and an IM. Feeling a bit scattered ;-) Yes, maybe he was still alive, not sure Wol.

Wol Euler: :)

Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of "train songs" also.

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Calvino Rabeni: Blues In The Night, for one.

Zen Arado: 'I hear that lonesome whistle coming down the track'

Wol Euler sings "the red light was my baby, and the blue light was my mind"

Calvino Rabeni: The train represents escape from the town of birth to a new mysterious beginning

Wol Euler: bardo!

Calvino Rabeni: heh

Wol Euler: wow, never thought of that before.

Eden Haiku: Quand J'entends siffler le train...

Wol Euler: daniel lanois "We don't ride that train no more"

Calvino Rabeni: Trains often figure into transformation stories as a symbol

Zen Arado: we forget how important the train was in the opening up America

Calvino Rabeni: once you get on, you *can't* get off, until it gets to the destination

Eden Haiku: Read in some esoteric-silly book somewhere (scientology I think) that there are trains on every planet, in all worlds. That is why little boys like to play with minature trains so much.

Wol Euler snorts

Eden Haiku: I know...

Wol Euler: not at all because of the phallic imagery of trains and tunnels, no no no

Eden Haiku: Ah ah!

Calvino Rabeni: no, they represent a powerful and inevitable process

Calvino Rabeni: and connection between people over great distances

Eden Haiku: The only case you cannot get off a train is to the death camps isn'nt?

Wol Euler nods. That is my association with riding freight cars, not hobo-ing

Calvino Rabeni: No, you can't get off between stops, and in the west, those may be far apart

Zen Arado: perhaps we have a hankering for their unchanging mode of progress?

Eden Haiku: These images of trains are always on the background...

arabella Ella: Hiya

Zen Arado: no decisions to be made en route

Calvino Rabeni: yes I like that Zen

Eden Haiku: Hiya Arabella!

Zen Arado: Hi Ara

Wol Euler: hello ara

Calvino Rabeni: Americans don't have the death camp image

Eden Haiku: no?

Eden Haiku: I'm suprised.

Calvino Rabeni: not compared to the other Western images

Calvino Rabeni: So it is much less a part of the metaphor

arabella Ella: depends on age and ethnic background i guess?

Calvino Rabeni: trains represent freedom more than death

arabella Ella: ah

--BELL--

Wol Euler nods. That is perhaps a personal association/hobbyhorse of mine

Calvino Rabeni: The poetic image is, you live in some small town somewhere, and hear the train whistle at night, and imagine, it could take you over your horizon, to a new life somewhere

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Zen Arado: yes

Wol Euler: there are few sounds quite as poignant as a distant train whistle in the dead of inght

Eden Haiku: Spent the 90 seconds rewinding mental images of death trains in Claude Lanzmann's Shoah.

Calvino Rabeni: It carries for many miles - it is amazing

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Wol Euler: european trains don't whistle :( no level crossings, you see.

Zen Arado: they have in Britain :)

Zen Arado: Irish trains are very primitive

Calvino Rabeni: I have a train figuring literally in a coming-of-age story

Calvino Rabeni: so I'm affectionate to them

Zen Arado: oh\/

Wol Euler: ooooh

Eden Haiku: Yes?

Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, big tease

Calvino Rabeni: OK,

arabella Ella: oh please say more Calvino you have aroused our curiousity?

Wol Euler whaps you with a cushion

Eden Haiku: Ah ah!

Zen Arado: sounds even better than Edens story :)

Calvino Rabeni: So young teenagers think they don't matter in the world

Calvino Rabeni: I was near a freight train as such a young person

Calvino Rabeni: I found a thing - didn't know what it was, a message of some kind

Eden Haiku: oh!

Calvino Rabeni: So I picked it up - took it

Calvino Rabeni: But then the train pulled out - passed that point, all the way to the caboose

Calvino Rabeni: and then stopped, because the message was for the man in the end of the train

Wol Euler: O.O

Calvino Rabeni: Because it wasn't there, the train had to back up its whole length

Calvino Rabeni: A mile long - took a long time to do that

Zen Arado: oh dear!

Calvino Rabeni: I was very embarassed with myself

Eden Haiku: !!!

arabella Ella: :)

Calvino Rabeni: And realized to be careful about certain things

Wol Euler nods.

Calvino Rabeni: And the power of messages in the world, etc.

Eden Haiku: Did you read the message?

Calvino Rabeni: It was a list of what train cars go to what destinations

Wol Euler thinks of messages that go missing: Romeo and Juliet

arabella Ella: did they actually pick you out and embarass you?

Eden Haiku: Maybe a secret code for something else? Ovnis maybe? Did the teenager thought something like that?

Calvino Rabeni: No they did not try to catch the thief.

arabella Ella: :)

Eden Haiku: There is a very special scene in Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections that Calvino's story reminds me.

Calvino Rabeni: I thought - a lesson in patience, from their point of view

Zen Arado: yes Eden?

Eden Haiku: He says something like that: You might have a very powerful engine but to get the train go through sorgho fields, you need to have tracks for the train to move along.

Eden Haiku: It is like our 9 seconds/90 seconds and trying to keep our focus.

Zen Arado: and making sure we choose the right path?

Eden Haiku: Is there a right path Zen?

Zen Arado: for each of us maybe

arabella Ella: can we ever really know which the right path for each of us is or do we just make educated guesses?

Zen Arado: but we can have a feeling about it?

Zen Arado: it feels right?

arabella Ella: (at least we like to think they are 'educated' guesses rather than merely hunches)

Wol Euler: my dears, I must return to RL. Family calls. Remember the theme session at 7pm!

Eden Haiku: I follow the sole of my feet a lot ;-) And the soul of my feet too...

Wol Euler: bye for now, enjoy your sundays

arabella Ella: nite Wol

Zen Arado: bye Wol

Wol Euler: I've claimed the log, will post it later on

Eden Haiku: Bye Wol!

Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol

Zen Arado: better go too

Calvino Rabeni: The train can symbolize destiny. But you know, it might be necessary to stop partway and walk at night across a trackless desert

Calvino Rabeni: Bye Wol CU

Wol Euler: this was a great conversation, thank you very much

--BELL--

Zen Arado: Opens carriage door - sorry :)

Eden Haiku: Bye Zen!

arabella Ella: i wonder what images people may have had in mind before trains or planes were used ... boats perhaps ... altho you do not find water everywhere?

Calvino Rabeni: These are living metaphors - make it possible to say things, an analytical or descriptive language could not

Eden Haiku: Horses, carriages?

Calvino Rabeni: If done playfully and with being.

arabella Ella: or birds perhaps?

Eden Haiku: Birds Ara?

arabella Ella: yes birds for me still symbolise freedom

Calvino Rabeni: Folktales use animals of all kinds for showing a variety of perspectives

Calvino Rabeni: Free as a bird

arabella Ella: yes

Eden Haiku: Ah for freedom yes. And for carrying messages too ;-)

arabella Ella: it was birds after all that inspired in humans the desire for flying

Calvino Rabeni: And singing, nesting, associating with their kind, having a mysterious language

arabella Ella: the famous Icarus story

Calvino Rabeni: Eden is going to fly now :)

Eden Haiku: I will fly back to RL, yes . Dinner time here. Goodnight everyone!

arabella Ella: the fact that we can fly on SL also gives a sense of freedom

arabella Ella: bye Eden

Eden Haiku: It does!

Calvino Rabeni: Bye Eden, fly back to the garden

arabella Ella: :)

Calvino Rabeni: Creativity, jazz, education, innovation, naturalizing philosophy, the cult of the genius...

arabella Ella: interesting stuff definitely

Calvino Rabeni: Part of the work is to help people re-own their creative sovereignity

arabella Ella: i will have to do some reading here

arabella Ella: i am more involved with tools which enable people to come up with ideas ... idea generating methods

Calvino Rabeni: PaB is a fertile encounter between non-experts

Calvino Rabeni: I am quite interested in that, Ara

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever considered, the proposition that the Pavilion here have a "confidential" mode in which the log can be suspended?

Calvino Rabeni: I believe it can be stopped and restarted, technically

Yakuzza Lethecus: good night you both

arabella Ella: yes it could

arabella Ella: nite Yaku

Calvino Rabeni: however the issue is really one of agreement, about whether that would be a proper thing to do

arabella Ella: well there was one occasion when i had asked for it to be switched off some months back

arabella Ella: but it would be a good idea to have a 'confidential' mode ... some sort of message that would eliminate any 'confidentail' chat

Calvino Rabeni: Can you say what for, without revealing the contents?

arabella Ella: i was discussing a tough personal problem i was trying to deal with

Calvino Rabeni: OK, that makes sense.

arabella Ella: and it is amazing the manner in which we build so much trust here amongst outselves

arabella Ella: and how through that trust we can help each other in incredible ways

Calvino Rabeni: There are other types of things that seem like they might be subject to discretion

arabella Ella: yes i guess so

Calvino Rabeni: "The Norms" for example :)

Calvino Rabeni: And impressions of individuals of course

arabella Ella: not sure what you mean there?

Calvino Rabeni: And shadow topics

arabella Ella nods

Calvino Rabeni: All very sensitive

arabella Ella: yes

Calvino Rabeni: Norms - I mean, the implicit sense of what one may do here, what is speakable and unspeakable, standards for behavior, all that stuff

Calvino Rabeni: I am convinced people do nearly all their thinking about that, on a very tacit level

arabella Ella: perhaps Wol or Storm may read this and look into possibilities of creating a key for confidential stuff which could then be automatically deleted from the log

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a kind of marker to create a bracket.

arabella Ella: yes i see what you mean now

Calvino Rabeni: (to put it into a pheno term )

arabella Ella: :)

arabella Ella: the epoche

Calvino Rabeni: Observe the power of confidentiality in many professions

Calvino Rabeni: Lawyers, priests, therapists, healthcare, etc.

arabella Ella: yes altho we have discussed openness with Pema a few times and he is in favour of PaB being open and recorded

Calvino Rabeni: It opens new possibilities but requires protection

Vector Marksman: hi

arabella Ella: Hiya Vector

arabella Ella: have you been here before Vector?

Vector Marksman: yes, once or twice, but I am familiar with kira

Vector Marksman: I am happy to listen some before I start talking

arabella Ella: i will give you a notecard with some info ... unless you have that already?

Calvino Rabeni: You know then, what we chat here is recorded and published on the internet?

Vector Marksman: no, please do

Vector Marksman: yes

arabella Ella: there you are

arabella Ella: and you do know that all our chat here is recorded and published on the web?

Vector Marksman: thanks, I am reading it

arabella Ella: oh ... apologies for repeating what Calvino had already said

arabella Ella: :)

Calvino Rabeni: The log can be stopped and restarted.

--BELL--

Vector Marksman: no problem..did i come in the middle of something?

arabella Ella: no ... and you are welcome to join us

arabella Ella: altho we have these 90 sec silence breaks

Vector Marksman: were you in one?

arabella Ella: yes :)

Calvino Rabeni: Ok that was the end of a short pause

Vector Marksman: sorry

arabella Ella: it says so every 15 mins here in this chat box ... no worries

Calvino Rabeni: Although when chatters get excited about something, they ignore it

arabella Ella: :)

Vector Marksman: i can imagine that

Calvino Rabeni: The meeting started at 1pm SLT, you came after most people had left

Vector Marksman: oh... is it over?

arabella Ella: i was late too ... i was out tonight and logged on when i got back home

arabella Ella: its nearly midnight ... gone midnight ... here now

Calvino Rabeni: Ara, do you have an overall impression of "meta" talk?

arabella Ella: depends on context ... which context of 'meta' talk do you mean?

Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, all contexts you are aware of :)

Calvino Rabeni: There are other dialogue groups in SL also. I like this one quite a bit.

arabella Ella: well ... i like to reflect on metacognitive thinking

Calvino Rabeni: Vector, this may be presumptuous, but I get a feeling you are a "straight shooter"

arabella Ella: perhaps it is similar to what we do here with 'dropping' or 'appreciating'

Calvino Rabeni: Could be - sometimes it "goes wrong" and sometimes it is really enlightening.

Vector Marksman: i suppose it i my name:]

Calvino Rabeni: That must be it.

arabella Ella: interesting choice

arabella Ella: of name

Vector Marksman: only partially a choice

arabella Ella: yes we are always limited by the second names on offer

arabella Ella: perhaps we can even tell how patient people are by their choice of names ... the further down in the alphabet the more patient they are

Vector Marksman: choice - our ability really chose seem like meta cognition o srts

arabella Ella: that would make Calvino the most patient of us three

Calvino Rabeni: The selection dialogue can be repeated as many times as you want, but the names are presented at random, from a pool

Calvino Rabeni: I am extremely patient

arabella Ella: i can tell

Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine thinks I am impatient, with a low threshold for boredom

Calvino Rabeni: Interesting his view could differ fundamentally

arabella Ella: but that's different

arabella Ella: people may be patient or not in different aspects of their lives

arabella Ella: boredom ... could be one of lifes biggest fears

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and they can change their attention while holding constant the circumstances

arabella Ella: exactly

Calvino Rabeni: As far as I can tell, the menu of possibilities many people feel confronted by, does not include that option

Calvino Rabeni: If you will, it is provided by metacognitive thinking.

arabella Ella: do you mean boredom?

Calvino Rabeni: For instance, the ability to not be bored, yes.

Calvino Rabeni: What do you think may be the barriers to metacognitive thinking?

Calvino Rabeni: As a skill, I mean.

arabella Ella: but ... what comes to mind is ... intelligent kids in a regular classroom could so easily get bored

arabella Ella thinks ....

Calvino Rabeni: What does the bored but intelligent child not know

--BELL--

arabella Ella: one barrier may be .... too much 'conditioning' in instant gratification with little or no time for reflection?

Calvino Rabeni: ....

Calvino Rabeni: that makes sense.

arabella Ella: the bored but intelligent child ...

arabella Ella: does not know how to sort out all the thoughts and ideas racing through his or her mind

arabella Ella: and cant make the mind go 'slow' to keep up with the slow pace of the rest of the kids

arabella Ella: in the classroom

Calvino Rabeni: as a skill of attention

Calvino Rabeni: it would be challenging in that environment

arabella Ella: how can one be attentive if the material is boring?

Calvino Rabeni: but kids also claim boredom when home alone

arabella Ella: if it does not satisfy curiousity or understanding

Calvino Rabeni: Ah,but there is always something there, some fascinating aspect

arabella Ella: the insatiable mind

Calvino Rabeni: available to imagination

arabella Ella: yes ... to more mature minds perhaps

Calvino Rabeni: if not repressed, if noticed, if given permission perhaps

Calvino Rabeni: exactly, there may be something coming with maturity

arabella Ella: i think so

Calvino Rabeni: might be called a metacognitive skill

arabella Ella: yes

Calvino Rabeni: For instance a phenomenologist might make a distinction

Calvino Rabeni: and say, if a train passes in the night, we do not hear the sound of the train

Calvino Rabeni: instead we hear the train.

arabella Ella: as we grow older we tend to learn to multitask at least mentally in circumstances like a boring classroom or a boring conference or whatever

arabella Ella: we then dont just hear the train

arabella Ella: but we may even make up a story about the train and more

Vector Marksman: amind filled with fear or desire can' t listen or reflect well

Calvino Rabeni: Right, so a kind of mental doubling makes it possible to hear the train, and to hear the hearing of the train, called the "sound"

Calvino Rabeni: but it takes multiprocessing

Calvino Rabeni: and ability to "access" and combine those two

arabella Ella: i agree with phenomenologists that we dont hear the sound per se but we interpret the sound as that of a train

Calvino Rabeni: Similarly the metacognition requires awareness OF self, as object

Calvino Rabeni: as a locus of potential action.

Calvino Rabeni: It is an added layer of complexity

arabella Ella: yes together with a strong acknowledgement of the power of reflection

Calvino Rabeni: In practice, the phenomenologist has to "stop somewhere"

arabella Ella: yes there are limitations

Calvino Rabeni: otherwise there is a hall of mirrors to deal with

arabella Ella: but phenomenology tries to break down those barriers whever possible i guess

Calvino Rabeni: But the practicing phenomenologist may be stopped by metacognitive limitations

arabella Ella: yes ... and language is one such limitation IMHO

arabella Ella: also our culture, upbringing, etc

Calvino Rabeni: So they say, but it is an open question

arabella Ella: yes it is

Calvino Rabeni: Also open, hopefully

Calvino Rabeni: And subject to pheno reflection

arabella Ella: altho we try to get to the basis of things ... to try to get ... if it is possible ... beyond language to 'raw' stuff whatever each of us takes that to mean

Calvino Rabeni: Bottomless, I suspect :)

arabella Ella: as you said though ... how bottomless can it be?

Calvino Rabeni: And why would the outside-of-language stuff be considered "raw" - what does that mean, exactly

arabella Ella: intruiging question

Calvino Rabeni: Does that imply some assumption about reality....

Vector Marksman: are we not on the boundary of the u nknown and unknowable?

arabella Ella: well language involves putting thoughts, emotions, etc into concepts

Calvino Rabeni: That boundary appears to be there, Vector

arabella Ella: and there is a whole discussion on whether non conceptual perceptual content could have any significance or not

Calvino Rabeni: Some people are more "at the edge" than others, maybe?

arabella Ella: maybe ... but

arabella Ella: if you reflect on stuff like emotions evoked through music for example ... are they all capturable under the ambit of concepts?

Calvino Rabeni: RIght, for the professional philosopher, but the argument would have to uncover the presumed nature of "non-conceptual perceptual content"

Calvino Rabeni: And then it appears to get bogged down a bit...

Vector Marksman: not for me... i don't have such a good grasp o the language of feelsings

arabella Ella: not just uncover it ... but also argue ... necessarily using language to communicate ... on whether it is possible to say non conceptual content can exist at all

arabella Ella: but ... emotions are not always capturable under concepts ... but

arabella Ella: to be communicated they must be

arabella Ella: and that raises a paradox

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: What is the assumption there - I think it is, that emotions are not "in themselves" a communication, and that communication can only be said to have properly occurred when the language "captures" the sense and creates a concensual agreement in that mode of thinking.

arabella Ella: this is really fascinating stuff ... but i'm afraid it is very late here now ... must get some sleep ... thanks for the chat ... hope to continue this chat ... nite all

Calvino Rabeni: Good night, sleep well Arabella

arabella Ella: yes exactly ... that's what i meant!

Vector Marksman: good nite

arabella Ella: :)

arabella Ella: nite

Calvino Rabeni: Vector, thanks for joining - C U again maybe.

Vector Marksman: good bye

Calvino Rabeni: Bye

Vector Marksman: I hope so