2009.12.22 13:00 - Near Death Experience and Entropy

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    Zon Quar: hi
    Zen Arado: don't know where everyone is tonight
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zon Quar: guardian is missing
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zon Quar: thats an outrage
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zon Quar: xmas is busy time
    Zen Arado: perhaps pplcan't get loggedin
    Zon Quar: hm
    Zon Quar: is there storms
    Zen Arado: there wwas amessages from Linden
    Zon Quar: ah what did it say
    Zen Arado: Dee Linden: Login, transaction and asset issues. Please do not rez no-copy objects or make transactions for the moment.
    Zon Quar: was it long ago
    Zen Arado: 12.59
    Zon Quar: nods..that might esplain
    Zen Arado: have you been online long?
    --BELL--
    Zon Quar: 30 min but afk
    Zen Arado: are you a guardian?
    Zon Quar: no
    Zen Arado: oh
    Zon Quar: just visitor..lol
    Zen Arado: I have been at another meeting at Hikari
    Zon Quar: what was it about
    Zen Arado: I have just became a guardian but not sure what you have to do yet
    Zen Arado: just meditation and a chat
    Zen Arado: you never been there?
    Zon Quar: ah u r teh guradian then
    Zon Quar: i dont think so..
    Zen Arado: hoping somebody turns up :)
    Zen Arado: Hikari is a nice place
    Zon Quar: what did u discuss ?
    Zen Arado: not much tonight
    Zen Arado: there were a couple there talking about vampirism
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zon Quar: never quit got that
    Zen Arado: don't know why that stuff is so popular in SL
    Zen Arado: weird
    Zon Quar: mm..yes
    Zen Arado: it is a lot more relaxed than here
    Zen Arado: Moon Fargis runs it
    Zon Quar: ah..here is quite stimulationg discussions sometimes
    Zen Arado: he is also a pab guardian
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zon Quar: im not sure if iv see him here
    Zen Arado: he has a session at 3 ama some day I think
    Zen Arado: ah heres Arabella :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Zon Quar: Hi Ara
    arabella Ella: have you had problems loggin on too tonite?
    Zen Arado: I was on a long time before session
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: took me ages
    Zen Arado: there was a Linden message
    Zen Arado: Dee Linden: Login, transaction and asset issues. Please do not rez no-copy objects or make transactions for the moment.
    arabella Ella: seems like i have a bag lag too and am getting funny sounds too
    Zen Arado: at 12.59
    arabella Ella: ah so the system has problems it seems
    Zon Quar: any ideas for a subkect ?
    Zen Arado: yes both Zon and I had been logged in for a while already
    Zen Arado: it supposed to be a theme meeting tonight I think
    arabella Ella: i think wol is travelling so there may not be a theme session today
    arabella Ella: then it also depends on who can manage to log on
    arabella Ella: so ... let's think of an appropriate topic?
    Zon Quar: does anyone have a nice problem
    arabella Ella: one too many
    Zon Quar: now
    arabella Ella: he he
    Zen Arado: I waS WATCHING videos about near death experiences earlier
    Zen Arado: is that interesting to anyone?
    arabella Ella: wow did you find them impressive ... what did you think about them?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Zon Quar: hi Cal
    Zen Arado: hang on ...find link
    arabella Ella: ok
    Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
    arabella Ella: if you will excuse me for a few mins i will log out and hope to log in again as the noises i am hearing are weird
    arabella Ella: hope to c u soon
    Zen Arado: it was quite scientific
    Zon Quar: i find tehm interesting but
    Zen Arado: sure
    Zon Quar: as my hypothesis is clear
    Zen Arado: yes Zon?
    Zon Quar: not bringing much info
    Zon Quar: but from scientific point..yes
    --BELL--
    Zen Arado: one scientist said " our brain may be a receiver , not producer of consciousness'
    Zon Quar: what do u think of them zen
    Zon Quar: what is ur hyphothesis ? r they "real" ?
    Zen Arado: well....I tend to think they are brain hallucinations
    Zon Quar: why
    Zon Quar: do u think consciousness is only in physical brain ?
    Zen Arado: haRD TO SAY EXACTLY WHEN THE BRAIN STOPS AT CLINICAL DEATH
    Zen Arado: sorry caps
    Zon Quar: good u didnt shout..lol
    Zen Arado: not so sure now
    Zon Quar: where was consciouness before man existed ?
    Zen Arado: Susan Blackmore says the things we see in NDE's are concistent with the way our vision narrows and we see a bright tunnel
    Zon Quar: might be..
    Zon Quar: but
    Zon Quar: there has been cases
    Zon Quar: where operated patient
    Zon Quar: has made observations
    Zon Quar: that cannot be expalined
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Zon Quar: that way
    Zen Arado: wb Ara
    arabella Ella: its really tough to log in today and i hear Pema sent some email saying he may not manage to log in tonite for theme session unfortunately
    Zen Arado: yes - there wre quite a few of those anecdotal cases in video
    Zen Arado: hard to explain
    Zon Quar: so ..i keep my hypothesis untill a better one is avaolable
    arabella Ella: could you let me have video link again please as i seem to have lost it
    Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
    Zon Quar: yaku
    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
    Zen Arado: not fair just giving a link when no one has had time to watch it
    arabella Ella: thanks Zen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Zen Arado: take s so long to watch videos too !
    Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Yaku-san
    Zen Arado: there was an interesting theory fro two scientists
    arabella Ella: seems like there are six parts to it ... would take some time
    Zen Arado: about how when you get to quantum levels space becomes not smooth but rough
    arabella Ella: would you like to share them with us Zen please?
    Zen Arado: like looking down on the ocean and then swimming in it
    Zen Arado: so there can be patterns
    Zen Arado: and this is likened to consciousness
    Zon Quar: energy doesnt vanish
    Zon Quar: consciosuness is energy
    Zen Arado: sorry not very good explanation
    Zen Arado: should have taken notes
    Zon Quar: so why couldn it move on
    Zon Quar: like energy
    Zen Arado: yes exactly Zon
    Zon Quar: logical to me
    Zen Arado: why restrict it to our brain?
    Zon Quar: more logical than it would just evaporate and vanish
    Zen Arado: Hi Storm
    arabella Ella: it makes a lot of sense though
    arabella Ella: what you just said Zen
    Storm Nordwind: Hi
    arabella Ella: as after all we are energy arent we
    Zen Arado: yes
    arabella Ella: and energy is meant to be constant in this world as we know it
    arabella Ella: so energy cannot just dissipate can it?
    Zon Quar: ni it just cnages form
    Zen Arado: well it does dissipate
    Zon Quar: changes form and state
    Zon Quar: ?
    Zen Arado: according to laws of thermdynamics
    Zon Quar: hm
    Storm Nordwind: Are we talking about entropy?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zon Quar: not sure if i agree on total scale
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems we are more than energy - we are patterns of energy - that is, something like information
    Zen Arado: talking about near death experiences
    Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
    arabella Ella: i must admit i dont know much about physics
    Zon Quar: if entropy would exist
    Zon Quar: only
    Zon Quar: how coem we got born
    Zon Quar: and organised
    Zon Quar: so well
    Zon Quar: so t ithin some oter force oi missing
    Zen Arado: but entropy is a general ttrend
    --BELL--
    Zon Quar: it doesnt explain cosmos..organising ability we see around us..it doesn expain the big bang..where did it come from, it there is only enthropy..so i think enthropy is only one side of the coin...
    Zen Arado: entropy starts after the big bang ?
    Zen Arado: need Pema here :)
    Zon Quar: entroby..come together again ...enthropy ..come togtehre again...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    arabella Ella: yes or perhaps Storm could help out here please?
    Zen Arado: it must all start up again at some point
    arabella Ella: what is the link ... excuse my ignorance ... between entropy and energy?
    Zon Quar: perhaps we need to decide ourself..lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what did you educate ppl in storm ??
    Storm Nordwind disclaims any knowledge
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    arabella Ella: oh you are so humble Storm aren't you?
    Zen Arado: I only studied it in engineering
    Zon Quar: cosmic dance of energy and consciouness..going on forever and ever
    Zen Arado: and you only need to know that you always lose energy every time you transfer it
    arabella Ella: yes so energy is constant as it can be transferred right?
    arabella Ella: gained or lost?
    Zen Arado: no always some is lost
    Zon Quar: whre does it go
    Zen Arado: because enery transfer is never 100 % efficient
    Calvino Rabeni: not lost, it gets dissipated and goes somewhere else
    Zon Quar: nods
    Storm Nordwind agrees with Calvino
    Zen Arado: ok
    arabella Ella: yes i agree with Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Lost from a local place, but in the greater universe constant
    Zen Arado: well the universe is running down isn't it?
    Zon Quar: ?
    Zon Quar: how so
    Zen Arado: expanding
    Calvino Rabeni: entropy increasing overall - that is what "running down" means
    Zon Quar: or expanding and contractiong ?
    Zen Arado: our sun will lose it's power
    Zon Quar: in rythm
    arabella Ella: hey i am watching the video and one of the doctors is from here from Malta but based in Southampton ...in part 2 of video
    Zon Quar: i think the western thinking of time as a linear is not correct
    Calvino Rabeni: the current most common physics theory is universe is expanding faster and faster
    Zen Arado: what happens to time if humans aren't here?
    Calvino Rabeni: but these theories can change
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: no one knows how long that expanding goes on
    Zen Arado: no
    Calvino Rabeni: time loses one if its greatest fans, if humans are not here
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: we invented it
    Zon Quar: so following indian thought
    Zon Quar: time is a cycle
    Zon Quar: would mena
    Zen Arado: one of a number of structure we put on reality
    Zon Quar: rythmical expansion and contraction
    Zen Arado: anyway I am losing my narrow view of what consciousness is
    Zen Arado: not so sure it is contained neatly in the brain
    Calvino Rabeni: how can you choose, between different theories - indian and scientific?
    Calvino Rabeni: The conscious
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry, slip.
    arabella Ella: the scientific does not seem to explain consciousness at all
    Zen Arado: Hi Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: if consciousness isn't a "substance", it doesn't have to be contained
    Zon Quar: scinetifif is what we know today..
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya..so sorry..loggin probs
    arabella Ella: i believe we need new language and a new way of investigating stuff to perhaps understand better what consciousness is all about
    Zen Arado: yes Ara
    Zen Arado: like Rorty says
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zen Arado: new metaphors :)
    arabella Ella: altho Rorty is a bit of a sensationalist in his own way
    Zen Arado: yes
    arabella Ella: John Searle says so too
    arabella Ella: and some who are into quantum physics
    Zen Arado: just leave it to poets and writers :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zen Arado: forget philosophy and science
    arabella Ella: well even scientists use metaphorical language dont they?
    Zon Quar: science comes always slowly
    Zon Quar: it has to test
    Zon Quar: test
    --BELL--
    arabella Ella: i dont believe in creating distinctions between disciplines
    arabella Ella: interdisciplinarity is the way forward
    Storm Nordwind slips away to a meeting
    Zon Quar: poets often go faster ahead
    Zon Quar: and science verifies that 200 year after
    Zen Arado: agree Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: interdisciplinarity or transdisciplinarity - are where knowledge is advancing
    Calvino Rabeni: knowledge-about-knowledge, I meant
    Zen Arado: scientists use their subjectivity too I am learning
    Zen Arado: in phenom
    Zen Arado: not all objective theories
    Calvino Rabeni: the issue is more acute in social sciences since the scientists may be their own subjects
    arabella Ella: the problem about moving forward with interdisciplinarity is that most researchers are entrenched in very narrow ways of perceiving the world ... or their own topic ... generally speaking of course
    Calvino Rabeni: like in psychotherapy
    Zen Arado: what about the risk of shallowness though?
    Zen Arado: you can't go deeply into a lot od disciplines
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, they have to set limits, not pretend to cover everthing
    arabella Ella: also there is an obsession with being scientific ... as psychology for example tries to make itself more 'scientific' in an attempt to be better accepted or taken more seriously
    Zen Arado: wider or deeper.....
    Calvino Rabeni: so the best is if they have 1 or 2 deep areas, and shallow knowledge of others, plus good dialogue skills
    arabella Ella: communication is key
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: Hi Lila
    Mickorod Renard: hi Lila
    Lila Sideways: hello everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lia
    arabella Ella: hiya Lila
    Zon Quar: well it also depends on the paragigma
    Zon Quar: is it based on nthropy
    Zon Quar: only
    Zon Quar: or matter based consciousness
    arabella Ella: paradigms are there for paradigm shifts to occur
    Zon Quar: that effects ur results
    Zon Quar: yes when older paradigma cant explain all
    Zen Arado: but the world has to be ready for them I think
    Calvino Rabeni: part of the paradigm shift is towards "information"
    Zon Quar: like in NDE
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zon Quar: they could cngae the paradigma
    Calvino Rabeni: which means, to consider the arrangements of matter as a primary concern
    arabella Ella: what is NDE?
    Zon Quar: near death experience
    Zen Arado: science is becoming less materialist since quantom theory was discovered
    Zon Quar: nods to zen
    Zon Quar: but common view outside top physisist tends still to be materialistic
    Zen Arado: NDE's are usually nice experiences
    arabella Ella: ah
    Zen Arado: which is hopeful anyway
    Zen Arado: ppl feel surrounded by love
    Zon Quar: so we tend to think NDEs as hallucinations
    Zen Arado: many change their whole lifestyle after
    arabella Ella: why hallucinations?
    Zon Quar: as it ffits better to current paradigma
    Calvino Rabeni: Imagine you gave up all your sufferings, that would seem pleasant
    Zon Quar: based on consciousness exosting only in our brain
    Zen Arado: current paradigm is changing fast
    Zen Arado: but they always do
    Calvino Rabeni: My impression is, consciousness studies are not converging.
    Zen Arado: moving to more spiritual paradigm maybe
    Zen Arado: no Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or not, depending on who you ask.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think the paradigm shift is partly driven by new techniques
    Calvino Rabeni: like brain scans, and knowledge of the way the brain works
    Calvino Rabeni: That will give confirmation to the physicalists
    Calvino Rabeni: but at the same time, show that the process is much more complex
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: than previously thought, which will also encourage the spiritual viewpoint
    Zon Quar: waves for goodnight...
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    arabella Ella: nite Zon
    Lila Sideways: good bye everyone
    Mickorod Renard: bye Zon
    Zen Arado: bye Zon
    Lila Sideways: happy holidays
    Zen Arado: I better go
    Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
    Zen Arado: should be reading up on this stuff instead of talking
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zen Arado: about things I know little about :)
    Mickorod Renard: there is so much to read up on
    Zen Arado: bye
    Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
    arabella Ella: bye Zen ... nite
    Mickorod Renard: what with wok,,time,,phenem,,Pab
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: dreams
    arabella Ella: are you interested in consciousness too Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    arabella Ella: ah ... me too
    Mickorod Renard: I am interested in a period of unconciousness at the moment
    Calvino Rabeni: There is "too much" to read, of course.
    arabella Ella: i find it a pity how people with a more scientific bent seems to try to do away with consciousness as such
    Calvino Rabeni: GOod luck Mick! :)
    arabella Ella: oh yes the digital age gives us even more stuff to read than we could in a whole lifetime
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it is OK with me, if they have a good reason for doing that
    Calvino Rabeni: But often don't
    Calvino Rabeni: IT is a challenge to be discriminating about what to read
    arabella Ella: i think there are more than enough reasons for believing there is something more than scientists explain
    arabella Ella: and that often leads to consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, the theorizer can look at themselves and their assumptions in the investigation
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that is part of interdisciplinarity
    arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: I often think about what sort of conciousness would someone in the position of God, have installed in us as humans
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, to declare their metaphysics on the way into the dialogue or study
    Mickorod Renard: from an AI position
    Calvino Rabeni: as best they understand them
    arabella Ella: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: not easy
    Calvino Rabeni: say more, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: well
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinkin about whether an Ai would be similar to us,,say by the 60th century
    Mickorod Renard: nite yaku
    arabella Ella: indistinguishable surely
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW, here is a huge collection on consciousess http://consc.net/online/
    arabella Ella: oh the chalmers stuff?
    Calvino Rabeni: similar or not
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs
    Calvino Rabeni: his collection, not just his point of view
    arabella Ella: he also has ome good youtube videos
    Calvino Rabeni: question is, is there more then one way to "do" consciousness
    Mickorod Renard: I often think of the lil inticacies of the human mind,,even the madness,,and think that they would be like failsafe devices in an ai
    arabella Ella: but on youtube he generally discusses what made him famous
    Calvino Rabeni: then the AI's might have a different way to do it
    arabella Ella: his distinction that consciousness is a 'hard problem' in philosophy
    Mickorod Renard: rebooting systems
    arabella Ella: hard problems as opposed to soft problems
    Calvino Rabeni: Those fringe things can also be seen as an exploration of limits
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, experiments for the benefit of the whole
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't buy the "hard problem" definition
    Mickorod Renard: self anlysing ethics packages loaded up from creation
    Calvino Rabeni: The interesting thing is - it all evolved - and had to handle contingencies - rather than having an outside designer
    arabella Ella: the use of the term 'hard problem' is just another way of using metaphor i guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like - software we use - no one designed it "as a whole" - it basically evolved
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, other problems may be significant, and just as "hard", so that term tempts people unnecessarily to focus on that one aspect of theory
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: which might be a side track anyway
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: has it evolved..or is it just the information that is loaded in now is more modern,,yet the hardware is the same as before?
    Mickorod Renard: I am not trying to persuade anyone to believe in God,,but use it as a means of thought
    Calvino Rabeni: If "god" could redesign all human software code to current needs, it would be *much* simpler
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand
    Calvino Rabeni: OR *much* more capable
    Mickorod Renard: well,,are you sure?
    Calvino Rabeni: About it being simpler to do the same thing, or more powerful?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,the human brain is well capable of more,,so why was it so great in the first place?
    Mickorod Renard: if it was for doin basic things like grunting and picking berries?
    Calvino Rabeni: not so basic - AI had a hard time doing robots, for instance
    arabella Ella: i dont think you understood what Mick meant Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: The greatness perhaps is that people don't realize the complexity of that they do
    arabella Ella: the human brain is so incredibly complex
    arabella Ella: surely it was made for greater stuff than we actually do today
    arabella Ella: and greater stuff than we did when we roamed the african savanah
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Ara
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am struggling at the moment with focusing,,pc probs
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure how to respond - what kind of "greater", and are you sure what was done before shouldn't be considered "great"?
    arabella Ella: may i ask you a question Calvino please?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes of course
    arabella Ella: unrelated to what we said
    arabella Ella: your name fascinates me
    arabella Ella: did you have a reason for choosing it?
    Mickorod Renard: I think what all animals and birds do is great
    Mickorod Renard: but clearly what enabled humans to develope was the advanced state of the human brain
    Mickorod Renard: in comparison
    Calvino Rabeni: I was using it in RL groups also - my given middle name is calvin, and people liked to put O onto that name - I liked it because I like european sensibilities, so for those reasons I adopted it in SL
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: i see
    arabella Ella: it fascinates me as there is an italian author with the name italo calvino ... it is a surname there
    Mickorod Renard: nice
    arabella Ella: and also due to the connotation with calvinism
    arabella Ella: besides the reason you give of course ... the name calvin
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I know both those connections -
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: so you are well read :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In USA, there was a "geek culture" - maybe now worldwide
    Calvino Rabeni: liking information, reading, machines
    arabella Ella: ah ha
    Calvino Rabeni: there was also a cartoon character boy named "calvin"
    Calvino Rabeni: so the name got popular on account of that
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: i remember that too
    Calvino Rabeni: after being out of fashion for a long tome
    Calvino Rabeni: *time
    arabella Ella: i like the idea of a geek culture
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, it was an interesting development for sure
    arabella Ella: but seems like people have now gone in one of the two extremes ... i mean to both extremes
    arabella Ella: either totally laid back
    arabella Ella: or geeky
    arabella Ella: sorry lag my chat does not always come out as i type it but changes sequence sometimes
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off home now
    Calvino Rabeni: steve martin should be called a patron saint of that culture
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: plants to tend to
    arabella Ella: which side of the spectrum would you place steve martin then?
    Calvino Rabeni: BFN, Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: dead men dont wear plaid
    Mickorod Renard: bye calvino,,,Ara
    arabella Ella: bye Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: he wrote a lot - Born Standing Up is good.
    Calvino Rabeni: Also "Pure Drivel"
    Mickorod Renard: hey, I thought I wrote that
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: hehe
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: i must go too it is nearly midnight here
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    arabella Ella: nite Mick Calvino!
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, sleep well :