2009.12.18 13:00 - From languages to new worlds

The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you from bye the way ?
Liza Deischer: Holland
Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bertram
Liza Deischer: hoi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: good evening yaku and liza :-)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. dann verstehst du warhscheinlich auch deutsch liza (?) ... :-)
Liza Deischer: a bit
Liza Deischer: i understood that
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya pema :)
Bertram Jacobus: okay :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hello pema ! ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: pema versteht auch deutsch :)
Liza Deischer: hi pema
Liza Deischer: also Dutch
Liza Deischer: youre also from Germany Yaku
Bertram Jacobus: dutch has a lot of german i think. and english - right ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: jep, i am :)
Liza Deischer: well
Liza Deischer: it depends
Liza Deischer: German and Dutch are really different languages
Liza Deischer: but still
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Liza Deischer: hi Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s interesting i talked to a guy from south afrika a few month ago and i didn´t know that afrikaans was based on dutch
Pema Pera: ein Deutsches Treffen heut?
Bertram Jacobus: i find it quite often embarassing : dutch people very often understand german, but germans nearly never dutch ... :-/
Liza Deischer: yes it is
Liza Deischer: I dont understand it
Liza Deischer: but i can read it
Pema Pera: Hi Aubergine!
Aubergine Mint: Hi Pema and everyone
Liza Deischer: :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello aubergine ... :-)
Liza Deischer: hi aubergine
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello eggfruit :)
Liza Deischer: German,French and English are big languages
Bertram Jacobus: lol :o)
Aubergine Mint: nice :)
Bertram Jacobus: and spanish !
Liza Deischer: a lot of people can use those languages
Liza Deischer: but as a small dutchman
Liza Deischer: inclosed by those languages in the east, west and south
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that many people in the world speak german ...
Liza Deischer: we must make sure we talk a little bit of everytthing
Liza Deischer: The eastern part of Europe"?
Bertram Jacobus: no. that is not my impression. even very different : they have not the roman but the slwic languages there ...
Bertram Jacobus: slavic*
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, pema could at least do the japanese part from a global perspecive :P
Liza Deischer: ok, yes you can be right
Pema Pera: :)
Liza Deischer: you probably are
Bertram Jacobus: i learned a bit russian some many years ago at the university of heidelberg ...
Bertram Jacobus: - some
Liza Deischer: well, thats an interesting language
Bertram Jacobus: yes. it was still in the times of cold war. i wanted to break a bit the borders ... ;-)
Liza Deischer: that's a good thought
Pema Pera: learning a new language is like entering a new world,
Pema Pera: learning to think in new terms
Pema Pera: think and feel and express
Liza Deischer: true
Liza Deischer: every language has his own 'feel'
Bertram Jacobus: every moment can give a chance to "enter a new world" - my spontaneous thought ...
Liza Deischer: in english you often only use a few words, to explain a whole world
Pema Pera: perhaps every moment *is* a new world !
Pema Pera: more radical
Bertram Jacobus: ok :-)
Bertram Jacobus: but one has to develop that
Pema Pera: each moment we die -- the we who we (thought we) are
Bertram Jacobus: to see it
Pema Pera: and each moment we and the whole world are born
Bertram Jacobus: feel, experience it -
Pema Pera: that is easy to see
Pema Pera: and you can learn to feel
Pema Pera: seeing is pretty obvious, no?
Pema Pera: the past has gone . . .
Bertram Jacobus: i think, for some people more easy for some less
Bertram Jacobus: because of the so called "karmic glasses", for example ...
Liza Deischer: its easy to see, hard to feel
--BELL--
Pema Pera: yes, Bert, but there are two reactions you can have to karma: you can acknowledge it and take it as a constraint; and you can acknowledge it and take it as an opportunity to work with it, using the boundaries it poses as bridges to go beyond those boundaries
Bertram Jacobus: and overcome all that ... another choice
Pema Pera: or see through it -- easier than trying to "overcome"
Pema Pera: a subtle but very important shift in attitude
Pema Pera: acknowledge/appreciate/accept rather than try to change/force/reach
Bertram Jacobus: and i think, one can see very illusive ... also because of strong habits
Pema Pera: it is a matter of cultivation
Bertram Jacobus: i see what you mean. nicely expressed
Pema Pera: and a teacher and/or group of friends can help, of course
Pema Pera: it's important to keep good common sense
Bertram Jacobus: i found a new flat today - so the terror with my neighbour will have an end - i´m VERY eased ...
Pema Pera: congratulations, Bert!
Liza Deischer: oh, I know that kind of terror
Bertram Jacobus: ty. that was a strange experience with that neighbour (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: and i won´t understand it ... hm -
Liza Deischer: if you cna't find peace in your own home....
Bertram Jacobus: is the word "mobbing" also exoisting in english - and if yes - what does it mean, please ?
Bertram Jacobus: right liza, terrible, very sad, exhausting ...
Pema Pera: by the way, Liza and I have had some very interesting conversations recently, off line
Pema Pera: about the question of practice
Pema Pera: to what extent it makes sense to talk about that in a loose group like here
Bertram Jacobus: sounds interesting
Pema Pera: rather than in the more organized structure of a particular tradition
Pema Pera: I would love to bring that conversation into the group, because it is really essential for anything we do here
Bertram Jacobus: please, do so !
Pema Pera: Liza, do you want to say something about the concerns you have?
Aubergine Mint: that sounds great
Bertram Jacobus: hello zen -
Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Zen Arado: Hi everyone
Aubergine Mint: hi zen
Pema Pera: sorry to jump this on you suddenly, Liza :)
Liza Deischer: hi Zen
Pema Pera: if you like, I can summarize our conversations in a nut shell
Liza Deischer: yes wasnt prepared
Liza Deischer: please do
Pema Pera: the core point that Liza brought up was the question whether it makes sense to talk about deep personal experiences, that can occur as part of a really serious exploration of reality, of the kind we do here
Pema Pera: in an open group of the kind we have here
Pema Pera: without the kind of safety and experience provided by a tradition
Pema Pera: any tradition
Pema Pera: whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or humanist or philosophical
Pema Pera: any tradition that has something to fall back on
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that tradition is the point , more the group ...
--BELL--
Pema Pera: I think Liza had an impression that we are climbing a staircase without a railing, without a handhold -- open but without guard rails built in. So in response I started talking about our system of guardians, etc
Pema Pera: is that a fair summary, Liza?
Liza Deischer: yes, it is
Aubergine Mint: I had a similar impression
Pema Pera: what do yuo think, Aubergine?
Pema Pera: do you see a drawback, or concern?
Aubergine Mint: I had a similar feeling, one of confussion about the groups purpose
Bertram Jacobus: i am already used to the idea that openness is good. but also more extroverted i am also - we had the topic already here. so it´ßs more easy for me ... more difficult for others ...
Liza Deischer: maybe i can expand a little bit on my feelings
Pema Pera: the purpose is to see who we really are . . . .
Pema Pera: please, Liza!
Liza Deischer: I do stand in a tradition
Liza Deischer: in which meditation and knowledge are both important
Aubergine Mint: I hear a lot of Buddhist ideas, but not much Humanist, or philosophical
Liza Deischer: especially meditation gave me a tool to see things in a differnet perspective
Zen Arado: I see tradition as being in the form of a lineage of experienced teachers
Aubergine Mint: feels exclusionary rather in inclusive
Liza Deischer: but meditation has rules
Bertram Jacobus: which are your ideas aubergine - may i ask so ?
Liza Deischer: that are very important for the rigth viewing
Liza Deischer: seeing if you will
Aubergine Mint: what do you mean, Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: when you write about buddhist, human and philosophical ideas here - do you prefere some of them ? or others aubergine ?
Aubergine Mint: i am not familiar with much about Buddhism, i lean towards humanist ideas
Aubergine Mint: but am open to learn
Aubergine Mint: don't want to label myself
Liza Deischer: I think that remark is very valuable
Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s random which ideas and people we meet here - in relation to the traditions.
Aubergine Mint: want to incorporate ideas i find helpful
Liza Deischer: because I feel the group want to be open to all ideas
Zen Arado: this group does lean towards Buddhism mostly it seems to me
Bertram Jacobus: hy zon :-)
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
Pema Pera: Hi Zon!
Zon Quar: heya
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya zon
Liza Deischer: but maybe that means that we need to create our own railing
Aubergine Mint: maybe it's just the sessions i've been too but does lean towards Buddhism and uses Buddhist language
Liza Deischer: I think so to
Liza Deischer: too
Bertram Jacobus: for me also all ways and thougts from everywhere are helpful - if they are linked with love.
Aubergine Mint: i feel the language needs to be more open
Aubergine Mint: like you were mentioning at the begining
Pema Pera: I think it is essential to emphasize that we are not a Buddhist group, nor leaning toward Buddhism, really -- perhaps there are more Buddists here, but there are also many from other traditions, or without a particular tradition
Zon Quar: all words, ideas and -isms r just pointers
Pema Pera: every individual needs boundaries that at the same time are permeable
Liza Deischer: true, but Aubergine is right in a way
Pema Pera: like cells in our body
Liza Deischer: we had a discussion about Emptiness yesterday
Liza Deischer: thats a bhuddist concept
Zen Arado: perhaps there have been Buddhists present mostly atmeetings Aubergine and Liza attended lately
Bertram Jacobus: i learned in many traditions, but the buddhist teachings give a very fitting and actual path for seekers of today i would say. not easy to jump in but very interesting, quite intellectual perahps also -
Liza Deischer: but without the railing (as you put so well)
Aubergine Mint: i asked for someone to define emptiness for me, but felt i was the only one in the room who didn't know it
Zen Arado: haven't met many who could define that Aubergine !
Liza Deischer: yes, I can imagine the feeling
Pema Pera: at that point it was already late in the session, Aubergine, and it is a big topic to start with
Liza Deischer: no but youre familiar to the concept Zen
Aubergine Mint: I realize that
Pema Pera: it would be great to focus a whole session (or two) on emptiness, by all means!
Zen Arado: yes I guess
Aubergine Mint: but neverthe less, i felt i didn't have the tools to participate
Liza Deischer: but there is a new topic on the table now
Liza Deischer: the one of intention
Pema Pera: we need no tools, Aubergine :)
Zen Arado: i have an Evangelical Christian/ philosophy/ Buddhist background
Liza Deischer: but maybe we use tools without knowing it
Liza Deischer: and do we use the tools in the right way?
--BELL--
Aubergine Mint: tools in the sense of language
Zon Quar: if they work..we use them in right way
Liza Deischer: not just language, but also concepts (as a buddhist I dont like that word, but okay...)
Liza Deischer: but at the same time, I realise that contradicts openess in a way
Liza Deischer: *with
Pema Pera: we use concepts to point to what is beyond concepts
Pema Pera: as long as we realize that, concepts are fine!
Liza Deischer: :)
Pema Pera: Most groups are either deep or wide
Pema Pera: deep as in following a particular tradition in depths
Pema Pera: or wide as a way to communicate between traditions, but staying more shallow
Pema Pera: we are crazy enough to try to do both :-)
Pema Pera: we'll see how well it works
Bertram Jacobus: we ? ;-)
Pema Pera: we = PaB as a group
Aubergine Mint: seems a hard task
Zon Quar: sounds good
Bertram Jacobus: hm. you´re sure ? you speak for others ?
Pema Pera: we have to be patient, that's the main thing, Aubergine -- not to expect quick results
Pema Pera: I'm speaking for the PaB group, yes, as I see it
Zon Quar: not to get trapped in words and concepts
Liza Deischer: yes, but I think thats where the problem is
Pema Pera: many of us at least are deeply serious and willing to share that in an open way
Liza Deischer: on one hand we want to be open to any tradition
Liza Deischer: on the other hand, the buddhists seem to be on the upper hand
Liza Deischer: I agree pema
Pema Pera: well, in any group there is a subgroup that is larger than other subgroup, but that doesn't mean that they are in any special position
Pema Pera: it is always nice to hear Taoist, Hindu, Islam, Christian, phenomenological, humanist ideas too
Pema Pera: and all of those happen here
Pema Pera: and more
Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) eliza ... :-)
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
Aubergine Mint: hi eliza
Zon Quar: hi eliza
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Liza Deischer: I know, but I think I heard Aubergine say, that she felt more excluded yesterday
Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Aubergine Mint: ok, so i'll keep coming to more to get a better overview of the group
Pema Pera: in fact, Aubergine, Isen gave a great start at talking about emptiness, through his examples
Zen Arado: maybe there is a wider mix at other times than this ?
Aubergine Mint: yes i thought so too
Pema Pera: we have been going on for one and a half years, with a few thousand sessions now
Pema Pera: so there is a lot of shared background, but that shouldn't discourage yuo
Aubergine Mint: so i'm late
Pema Pera: we are always happy to start from scratch
Pema Pera: I very much enjoy starting at square one
Bertram Jacobus: i´m here since only a few month "too" aubergine ...
Eliza Madrigal: Never late :)
Pema Pera: to clarify also for myself what it is I am working with
Bertram Jacobus: months*
Zon Quar: truth is higher than any religion or philosophy...
Liza Deischer: its an open group, so new people arrive all the time
Pema Pera: keeping it fresh!
Aubergine Mint: so "scratch" questions are ok?
Zon Quar: they r the best
Liza Deischer: (she said, only being here for a few weeks herself)
Zen Arado: we can get too sectarian and dogmatic about our beliefs if we only talk to others who share the same beliefs I think
Zon Quar: nods
Zon Quar: variety is more fun
Zen Arado: I found that when I was a Christian
Zen Arado: like going around with blinkers
Eliza Madrigal: agree with that Zen... it is a privelege to be able to talk to so many here with such diverse backgrounds
Zen Arado: maybe I am getting that way with Zen :)
Pema Pera: we have some very serious Christians too here, like Geo, a Franciscan
Zon Quar: yes..freshens up ur toughts
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to appear and disappear so soon :) Bye for now
Pema Pera: I wish he would come here more often
Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
Pema Pera: I have to go too
Liza Deischer: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal waves
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Zon Quar: bye E
Pema Pera: to a phenomenology workshop in the Kira Cafe
--BELL--
Pema Pera: (to which anybody is more than welcome!)
Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
Zon Quar: bye A
Liza Deischer: in that case
Liza Deischer: im going too
Zen Arado: bye everyone
Zon Quar: yup
Zon Quar: namaste
Liza Deischer: shoot, another discussion broken off :)
Liza Deischer: bye all
Bertram Jacobus: bye liza ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok cya there maybe pert
Yakuzza Lethecus: bert
Bertram Jacobus: danke yaku - kannst mir mal n tp dahin geben ?