2009.12.24 01:00 - Traditions and God

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

    Zen Arado: Hi Bolonath :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hi zen, bert
    Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) bolo and zen ! :-)
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: is this "your" regular session now bolo ? :-)
    Zen Arado: this is my first guardian session
    Zen Arado: not sure what to do yet
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. no. so it´s "yours" zen - great ! :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: no, bert. my regular session is on wednesday
    Bolonath Crystal: zen, did you claim the session already?
    Zen Arado: no
    Bolonath Crystal: just click on the recorder. there will open a window, on which you click 'claim'
    Bolonath Crystal: at the end of the session you will get a link with the recording
    Bolonath Crystal: great :). that's it
    Bertram Jacobus: and "your" session at wenesday is which one bolo ? which time ? :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: 1am slt
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. sad : at that time i won´t be able to take part mostly because of my work ...
    Zen Arado: I got the test message to my email
    Bolonath Crystal: that's fine, zen
    Zen Arado: does the session get emailed to me?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: or better: you'll get a link via email
    Zen Arado: at the end of the session?
    Zen Arado: do I have to do anything to end the session?
    Bolonath Crystal: no, zen. it ends automatically, when nobody is here anymore
    Zen Arado: ok thanks
    Bolonath Crystal: np :)
    Bertram Jacobus: (besides) : zen - may i ask ? i don´t remember or don´t know yet : where do you live ? :-)
    Zen Arado: sorry this is a bit boring
    Zen Arado: for others
    Bertram Jacobus: not at all - necessairy ! basics ... :-)
    Zen Arado: all I have to do is work out how to post it now :)
    Bolonath Crystal: my wednesday session uses to be very quiet. usually only calvino and me. but we use to have interesting dialogues
    Zen Arado: I live in N.Ireland
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. great. interesting ! ...
    Zen Arado: small town called Carrickfergus
    Zen Arado: we have a Norman castle
    Zen Arado: http://www.ni-environment.gov.uk/pla.../carrick.shtml
    Bertram Jacobus: that sounds very ... like a fiction ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: a very old story ...
    Zen Arado: I live in an apartment block beside a marina
    Bertram Jacobus: lord of the rings and such ;-)
    Zen Arado: near the castle
    Zen Arado: built in 1180
    Bolonath Crystal: zen: to post the meeting, simply follow the advice from this link: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio...sting_Tutorial
    Zen Arado: thanks Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: yw :)
    Bertram Jacobus: great link zen ! ty ! ...
    Zen Arado: I read that but I don't know how to log in yet
    Bolonath Crystal: don't you have a password yet, zen?
    Zen Arado: no
    Bolonath Crystal: ah...
    Zen Arado: Storm was to get me authorized or something
    Bolonath Crystal: i had the same problem in the beginning. you should send an email to storm to tell you the password
    Zen Arado: ok will do
    Zen Arado: where do you guys live?
    Bolonath Crystal: germany
    Zen Arado: ah lots of Germans at pab
    Bertram Jacobus: me too, germany, cologne
    Zen Arado: you see :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes lol
    Bertram Jacobus: and a lot of people from the us ?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, but not at 1 am ;)
    Zen Arado: no
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: rigth - but sometimes there is one or another, even at this time (!) ;-)
    Zen Arado: I hate it when they have meetings in SL at 7pm
    Zen Arado: they have zen teachers at Kannonji and I had to miss them because of that
    Bertram Jacobus: thats really sad ... but ... perhaps you could get the logs of it ?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: actualy I watched one on Youtube
    Bolonath Crystal: well, others have to miss the 1am sittings... i think it is fair
    Zen Arado: true
    Zen Arado: I never see many Australians in SL
    Zen Arado: they could make this time
    Zen Arado: I think
    Zen Arado: you guys have to go to work?
    Bertram Jacobus: not today
    Bolonath Crystal: no, works comes to me :)
    Zen Arado: I am retired
    Zen Arado: I retired early
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. you like that ?
    Zen Arado: yes I can do what I want
    Bertram Jacobus: wonderful !
    Zen Arado: I paint and sell paintings
    Bertram Jacobus: how nice
    Bolonath Crystal: cool :)
    Zen Arado: study and read
    Zen Arado: practice Zen
    Bertram Jacobus: who buys it and which ways you use to sell them ? internet ? a shop ?
    Zen Arado: I am in two Art Clubs in RL
    Zen Arado: and sell at their exhibitions
    Zen Arado: I do commissions sometimes for people
    Bertram Jacobus: nice ...
    Zen Arado: but I prefer not to...
    Zen Arado: people ar so fussy
    Zen Arado: and they want paintings for nothing
    Zen Arado: and there can be a lot of work in them
    Zen Arado: I have some on Flickr if you want to see?
    Bertram Jacobus: and zen ... also very nice. i´m happy to hear that - because - i say it simply open : many zen people i know communicate quite rude. you don´t act like this at all (!) - and the zen masters don´t act like that too as far as i know them. but many western followers ... do you know this phenomenon zen ?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Zen Arado: Zen teachers have that reputation
    Zen Arado: hitting you with sticks :)
    Bertram Jacobus: that is not my problem lol
    Zen Arado: but my teacher is quite gentle
    Zen Arado: he comes to N.Ireland from San Francisco zen centre twice a year to lead retreats
    Zen Arado: Paul Haller
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, many western schiolars understand something wrongly when they act like i wrote before ... terribly in the most "official" german buddhist internet forum for example ... :-/
    Zen Arado: Paul was born and raised in N.Ireland
    Zen Arado: that is why he comes here again
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. okay.
    Zen Arado: I haven't met any rude zen people Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: i didn't meet many zen people at all :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and in this forum ... buddhists from the various lineages and traditions often are at heavy strives
    Zen Arado: only read about old Japanese teachers who were very fierce
    Zen Arado: yes that can be a problem
    Zen Arado: I read from other traditions
    Zen Arado: and am quite happy to do so
    Zen Arado: though I prefer Soto Zen
    Bertram Jacobus: and i made already a lot of problematic aspects between and from buddhists - my comment often is : a nice point is, that they do the strives in their circles and not wiith others often ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: I read Advaita teachings too
    Bertram Jacobus: i met, not i made, sry
    --BELL--
    Bolonath Crystal: advaita vedanta is very close to buddhism. which teachings did you read, zen?
    Zen Arado: ah I read Tony Parsons
    Bolonath Crystal: ah yes
    Zen Arado: and others I forget
    Zen Arado: I have a friend who is keen on this teaching
    Bertram Jacobus: and from religions often the most heavy conflicts come sadly. and the people at the same time try not to see the problematic aspects ...
    Zen Arado: she sends me links to teachings
    Zen Arado: I used to be an Evangelical Christian for 20 years
    Zen Arado: so I know something about it
    Bertram Jacobus: the man of the woman who mobbed me out of my flat for example wears a buddha ... and they have tobetan thangkas in theirt flat ...
    Zen Arado: oh?
    Zen Arado: there are bad examples from all religions
    Bolonath Crystal: i was tibetan buddhist before i shifted to advaita
    Zen Arado: yes_ who knows where we finis up?
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow. that was what i meant in the beginning zen with "interesting" - north ireland ! very famous for the religious troubles - but, please, don´t understand me in a wrong way : that´s not what i lke (!) -
    Zen Arado: yes and trouble is between 'Christians'
    Bertram Jacobus: i know
    Bertram Jacobus: very intense
    Zen Arado: Catholic and Protestant
    Bertram Jacobus: i have contact to many christians, too
    Zen Arado: but I am Protestant and have many Catholic friends
    Bertram Jacobus: and the regular and free churches also in germany - have many fights ...
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) zon ! :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon
    Zon Quar: hi boys
    Bolonath Crystal: i'd say, none of those who fight each others for their religion really got the point
    Zen Arado: actually when I practice Zen most are Catholics
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree very much bolo
    Zen Arado: trus Bolo
    Zen Arado: it is Fundamentalism gives problems
    Zen Arado: when you think you have the only right way
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Zon Quar: the problem with religion is fanatisism
    Zen Arado: even Protestants don't agree in N.Ireland
    Zen Arado: Baptists don't agree with Presbyterians
    Zon Quar: if u thinku r right and others wrong
    Zon Quar: it causes that
    Zen Arado: and often Christian friends try to get me to come back
    Zen Arado: but they don't know anything about Buddhism
    Zon Quar: were u a true catholist zen ?
    Bolonath Crystal: same here, zen
    Zen Arado: and don't want to know :)
    Zen Arado: no I was a Protestant
    Zen Arado: born again :)
    Zon Quar: ah..ok
    Zen Arado: well there are good things about Christianity too
    Zon Quar: so were u raised like a protestant or was it ur own choice ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i found "the good jesus" via buddhism (!) ...
    Zen Arado: I was raised that way
    Zen Arado: yes maybe Jesus was bodhisattva
    Zen Arado: his teachings are very good
    Zon Quar: yup me too, but never really was convinced..
    Bolonath Crystal: often i pointed out that there are the same concepts in the bible as well as in the bhagavad gita. but my christian friends insist, that the bhagavad gita is wrong, even if it says the same as the bible, simply because it is the bhagavad gita
    Zen Arado: the Sermon on the Mount is very good teaching
    Zon Quar: as the doctrin is not "intellectual " and logical enough for me
    Bertram Jacobus: before buddhisms i didn´t find what i searched in christian beliefs ...
    Zen Arado: I agree Bolo
    Zen Arado: but they misinterpret them
    Zen Arado: sometimes Jesus was hard to understand
    Zen Arado: like zen koans
    Zon Quar: so much unesseential around Christs teachings
    --BELL--
    Zon Quar: whic is taught then
    Zon Quar: by priests as something u should "believe", and not question by urself
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i think when jesus said i´m the path, the truth and the life and nobody finds the father without me he did not mean himself as a person but himself as an ambassador of love (!) ...
    Zen Arado: people water the teachings down too
    Zon Quar: and use it to dause guilt to control and have power
    Zon Quar: casue
    Zen Arado: yes that is a problematic taching Bolo
    Zon Quar: cause
    Zen Arado: soem say the Gospel of John is not true teaching
    Zon Quar: why ?
    Zen Arado: it was written a long time after esus's death
    Bertram Jacobus: gospel of john ? what is that, please ?
    Zen Arado: in the Bibles
    Bertram Jacobus: ah johannes ... okay - ty
    Bertram Jacobus: for me the essence of jesus is - very simply : love
    Zon Quar: the osome say its the most esoteric one..lol
    Zen Arado: the books of the Bible were chosen by men
    Zen Arado: there were many gospels
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: do you know the gospel of thomas?
    Bertram Jacobus: and i think love and light are links between the relative and the absolute areas of reality ...
    Zon Quar: iv heard that the doctiren of reincarnation was abolished form the original text about 500 AD cause it was too dangerous for the priest power
    Bertram Jacobus: belong to both
    Zen Arado: but Jesus said very hard things too
    Bertram Jacobus: what for example ?
    Zen Arado: about giving all your money away to the poor and following him
    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. i tried that. very difficult
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, the gnostics 'officially' believed in rebirth, zon
    Zen Arado: he often presched against having riches
    Bertram Jacobus: but milarepa in tibetan buddhism is a very close and similar example for such a readical way
    Zon Quar: to me its same as clinging to moeny taught by buddha
    Zen Arado: he did not make it easy path
    Bertram Jacobus: that may only be for some people. for others - other methods
    Zen Arado: yes agree Zon
   Zen Arado: 'love of money is the root of evil'
    Bertram Jacobus: you can´t serve two kings ...
    Zon Quar: hm
    Bertram Jacobus: he said
    Zen Arado: yes Bert
    Zon Quar: but u should not adore poverty..i dont think that was jesus pot
    Bertram Jacobus: but these are highest teachings i think
    Zon Quar: point
    Bolonath Crystal: right. advaita vedanta teaches, that it is not bad to have money. only to cling to it
    Bolonath Crystal: attachment is the true problem
    Zon Quar: but use money like any other form of energy
    Bertram Jacobus: agree again
    Zen Arado: yes that is the point I guess Bolo
    Bertram Jacobus: but - isn´t it interesting, that jesus and buddha did not have much as it seemed ?
    Bertram Jacobus: seems
    Zon Quar: buddha was a king
    Zon Quar: he had all
    Zen Arado: but we also have to be careful we don't dilute teachings to suit ourselves maybe
    Bertram Jacobus: no. his father was a kind of earl
    Zon Quar: yes, and then he tried ascetism
    Zon Quar: but that was not good either
    Bertram Jacobus: yes the middle path - wonderful !
    Zen Arado: you could say esus did that too
    Zen Arado: when he spent 40 days in the wilderness
    Bertram Jacobus: and so many years without any reports about his life zen (!) ...
    Zen Arado: Buddhism is so sensible
    Bertram Jacobus: sensible ?
    Zen Arado: it mkaes so much good sense to me
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: obviously jesus seemed to have spent some time in northern india (which was mainly buddhistic during this time)
    Bertram Jacobus: what made you leave the buddhist path and change to advaita bolo ?
    Zen Arado: could be Bolo
    Zon Quar: buddhism is logical..
    Zon Quar: and u must be logical first to understand paradoxes
    Zen Arado: or maybe he met teachers from the East
    Bolonath Crystal: advaita is more philosophy than religion, bert
    Bolonath Crystal: but it is mainly influenced by buddhism
    Bertram Jacobus: what is the difference between religion and philosophy in your understanding bolo ?
    Bolonath Crystal: somehow i think, that advaita is more buddha's way than buddhism
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: for me, religion means linked to absolute, philosophy not -
    Bertram Jacobus: i like to vcorrect myself : philosophy less or seldom (linked to the absolute)
    Zen Arado: my impression is that it emphasizes 'no self' more Bolo ?
    Bolonath Crystal: well, indian philosophy is always linked to religion
    Bertram Jacobus: ups. sry
    Bolonath Crystal: in tibetan buddhism there is a lot of praying. that is not what buddha wanted imo
    Zen Arado: yes I don't understand prayer in Buddhism
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s like white magic i thought today ...
    Bertram Jacobus: which is black in the end too
    Bolonath Crystal: advaita is more... hm... 'scientific'
    Zen Arado: I haven't read much advaita
    Zen Arado: they keep saing there is nothing to do ...nothing to seek for..
    Bolonath Crystal: that's neo-advaita, zen
    Zen Arado: ah yes
    Zon Quar: agrees with bolo: cant see much difference in buddhas thoughts and advaita
    Bolonath Crystal: little difference to traditional advaita
    Bertram Jacobus: my preference is aslo mind and heart, science and love ...
    Zon Quar: buddhism is antoher thing..
    Zon Quar: like all isms
    Zen Arado: yes we cling to views too mush too
    Bertram Jacobus: i liked your statement bolo : advaita may be the better buddhism ;o)
    Zen Arado: and that is also a view :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but ! i get a lot of insights via buddhism ...
    Bolonath Crystal: buddhists say 'all is emptyness'. advaitins say 'all is brahman'. but actually brahman and emptyness is identical
    Bolonath Crystal: absence of perceptional characteristics
    Bolonath Crystal: bert: i'd never have found my way to advaita without buddism :)
    Zon Quar: and noself is same as no perment separate I
    Bertram Jacobus: but brahman is very dangerous because all the misunderstandings - no ?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, bert. just like 'emptyness'
    Zon Quar: all words can be missunderstood..lol
    Zen Arado: sounds like a God is problem to me
    Zon Quar: and usually r
    Zon Quar: yes the most most missuderstood word god
    Zon Quar: its waht we think it is
    Zen Arado: yes it is a big subect !
    Zon Quar: so better not use it
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. so our task may be to find again and again the right words
    Zon Quar: we never agree
    Zen Arado: I should look into the idea of God again
    Zon Quar: in protestant religion god is a father figure
    Zen Arado: I rejected it through philosophy
    Zon Quar: its deeply rooted
    Zon Quar: in our understanding of the word god
    Zen Arado: I don't creator god notion
    Zon Quar: external farther figure
    Bertram Jacobus: for me god means the good (words are not randomly so similar i think!) - but only in the relative . and all in absolute -
    Zen Arado: dont like I mean
    Zon Quar: which is not so to me
    Zen Arado: I read an article about how God became creator after industrial revolution
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting zen
    Zen Arado: but they had a different idea before that
    Bertram Jacobus: nice
    Zon Quar: if all is god and god is all that exists, the word is a bit meaningless
    Zen Arado: if you have a concept of God it is an idol anyway
    Zen Arado: you can't really understand what God is
    Zon Quar: snd if it is less than all it is not god
    Zen Arado: we just project human characteristics on to him
    Zen Arado: only magnified
    Zon Quar: nods
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think that it´s meaningless then, becuase the ideas of all , unity and universality and such - are not worthless
    Zon Quar: no..but to call it god ?
    Bertram Jacobus: in contrary : they can give orientation
    Zen Arado: yes Bert but perhaps we narrow god into our own undeerstanding?
    Bolonath Crystal: there is a 'science of enlightenment', which is called yoga. in yoga there are different methods. one of them is bhakti - devotion. christianity is (technically spoken) bhakti yoga . for bhakti one has to personalize god, so god is seen as something (better 'someone') different from us. and that's true in some sense, as long as we identify ourselves with our ego
    Zen Arado: instead of being open to what he reveals to us?
    Zon Quar: agree.. to some it might be useful
    Bertram Jacobus: as i said before : i see dangers in such words, too and we should find again and again helpful communication means
    Bolonath Crystal: i like the term 'true self'
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: in two forms : good words and agreements
    Zon Quar: nods, god can be a tool for enlightenment; true self can be unconsciously understood as a separate god like figure too, but its better yes
    Zen Arado: maybe understanding is not it
    Bolonath Crystal: we need symbols to communicate. but symbols are not the truth. they are symbols. so god, true self, brahman, emptyness ... are symbols for 'absence of symbols'
    Bolonath Crystal: mindboggling *g*
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: just being
    Bertram Jacobus: understanding is a longer path - so it´s said. and in the end all comes together : understanding and devotion and what ever else ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: being receptive too
    Bolonath Crystal: bert: thats exactly what advaita says :)
    Zon Quar: one could also say god is all that is; so god is isness
    Bolonath Crystal: the 'understanding'-method is called jnana-yoga
    Bolonath Crystal: isness :) nice word
    Bertram Jacobus: and i go back to buddhas word : be a refuge for yourself bolo ;o)
    Zon Quar: which brings it to being here and now
    Bertram Jacobus: and zen - i don´t think that my impression or understanding of god as all is limiting (?)
    Bolonath Crystal: all and nothing isn't so much different
    Zen Arado: I hope I didn't imply that Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: and which of both do you choose bolo ?
    Zen Arado: trying to correct my own views
    Bertram Jacobus: no zen ! not at all ! only to make clear ... may be i misunderstood something ... sry -
    Zon Quar: words..words..lol
    Zen Arado: I still have old Evangelical views in soem ways
    Zen Arado: need to re-examine every now and then
    Zon Quar: it is deeply rooted..what u lear as a child inst it
    Bolonath Crystal: bert, why should i choose between two words, that mean the same?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i read they were very different bolo (!) lol ... :o))
    Bolonath Crystal: ok. so i define 'all' as the relative and 'nothing' as the absolute aspect of being, bert ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: and ... the idea of rebirth or to go out or heaven ... they seem to be but a quite different - no ? ;-)
    Zon Quar: what is nothing
    Bertram Jacobus: ideas*
    Zon Quar: it is no thing
    Zon Quar: so all is no thing
    Zon Quar: but all
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - nicely expressed bolo ! :-)
    Zen Arado: form and emptiness
    Zon Quar: but all all contains nothing and all
    Bolonath Crystal: right, zen
    Zon Quar: lol
    Bolonath Crystal: or: shiva and shakti
    Bertram Jacobus: yes zon
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Zon Quar: so it all depends how we define ...
    Bolonath Crystal: enlightenment means the union of shiva and shakti, of form and emptyness, of all and nothing
    Bertram Jacobus: and for me experience is essential
    Zon Quar: nods
    Bolonath Crystal: agree
    Zen Arado: and throwing away all our ideas and concpts about them?
    Bolonath Crystal: and it doesn't matter how we come to that experience
    Zon Quar: ideas r fun to talk about
    Zen Arado: direct experience is all in Zen
    Zon Quar: butwe should not take them seriously
    Bertram Jacobus: nice talk this morning here ! :-)
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Zon Quar: merry xmas to all
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. yes ! ty same same :-)
    Zen Arado: difficult to talk about deep things without having disagreements :)
    Zon Quar: if u celebrate that..lol
    Bolonath Crystal: what a pity we don't have christians around today
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t but nice wishes always are a good thing
    Bertram Jacobus: and zen - i find the agreements today and here quite wide
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: and why a pity bolo ? ;o)
    Bolonath Crystal: well, christmas is a christian celebration, bert
    --BELL--
    Bolonath Crystal: would be nice to have christian opinion here as well - even at the cost of some agreement :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but we all have enough christian background i guess to know what that is all about -
    Zon Quar: snd religions can never agree...lol
    Bolonath Crystal: hm
    Bolonath Crystal: okay, i can accept that, bert :)
    Zon Quar: they r nor meant to agree
    Zen Arado: so long as Christians do not preach to me
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Zen Arado: or try to convert me
    Bertram Jacobus: ah
    Bolonath Crystal: different people need to go different pathes to reach the same point at the end
    Zon Quar: zen,,just say yes to all
    Bertram Jacobus: i undersood it wrongly (with praying)
    Zen Arado: yes you are right Zon
    Zon Quar: then they stop converting..lol
    Zon Quar: and dont know waht to do
    Bertram Jacobus: and i think too there is normally a common ground in the again and again upcoming religious teachings ...
    Zen Arado: I have problems with Jehovah's Witnesses
    Bertram Jacobus: they only differ in time and space and so in the forms
    Bertram Jacobus: different pictures
    Zon Quar: bye..namaste..hare krishna..may the force be with u ...xmas dinner waits for me....
    Zen Arado: bye Zon :)
    Bolonath Crystal: bye zon :)
    Zen Arado: Gassho
    Bertram Jacobus: have a great time zon
    Bolonath Crystal: i'll have my christmas dinner tomorrow, when i visit my parents. kind of family tradition
    Zen Arado: yes me too
    Bertram Jacobus: i have no christmas events
    Zen Arado: I visit my neice
    Bolonath Crystal: bert: you can sit under a coniferous tree singing 'hare jesus' ;)
    Zen Arado: it is difficult to escape Christmas
    Bertram Jacobus: löl
    Bertram Jacobus: and yes : i worked many years on it (to come free from christmas commitments) - but now it´s all okay ... :-)
    Zen Arado: but the culture all around forces it on you :)
    Bolonath Crystal: why escape from it? we can learn from it! as from all religions
    Zen Arado: all the shops close here
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. it´s in the air. but that is okay to me
    Zen Arado: yes you have to just accept it I think
    Bertram Jacobus: i did not like the bondages bolo
    Zen Arado: I still have to send Christmas cards...give presents
    Bertram Jacobus: is it okay for you zen ?
    Zen Arado: I just go along with it but wou
    Bolonath Crystal: i think that there are a number of misunderstandings in christianity. we don't have to agree with those. but instead we can try to understand jesus the way he meant it to be
    Zen Arado: would prefer it if I didn't feel this obligation
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. normal i think
    Bertram Jacobus: wish you freedom - in which way ever !
    Zen Arado: yes I live in a Christian society and have Chrisyian friends
    Zen Arado: yes it more a cultural tradition than actual Christianity
    Bolonath Crystal: well, i go and produce some karma to free myself from hunger now *gg*
    Bertram Jacobus: my christian surrounding accepted my disposition meanwhile ... and i have great relations to many ! ...
    Zen Arado: ok nice to see you Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: have a nice time, om shanti :)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Bertram Jacobus: lol bye bolo
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: and zen - i think, you can even as responsible guardian leave the session latest after one hour or so - you get the log nevertheless ! ... :-)
    Zen Arado: oh
    Zen Arado: thanks for telling me :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i´ll leave then, too ... was a real long talk today ! ... :-)
    Zen Arado: I didn't have my breakfast yet
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: me not too
    Bertram Jacobus: and bolo not too as it seems ;-9
    Zen Arado: but I enjoyed talking :)
    Bertram Jacobus: so let´s have a nice breakfast now ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: same here :-)
    Zen Arado: yes good idea
    Zen Arado: bye Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - have a good time and i enjoyed it very much to learn some more about you (too) :-))
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zen :-)