2009.12.02 07:00 - Virtuous Grounds and Strange Attractors

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined today by Eos and Yakuzza.

    A layered session... inexhaustable treasure: appreciators welcome...

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos, what a surprise :)
    Eos Amaterasu: ^_^
    Eliza Madrigal: This is an unusual time for you
    Eos Amaterasu: I am no longer tied down to travelling downtown for this contract I was working on
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice! Must be a good feeling... a bit of space in the schedule :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Still zillions of things, but more space: yesterday I stayed home, lit a fire in the fireplace while the snowflakes fell
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh :)
    Eos Amaterasu: You have a new look!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... felt it was time for some play
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll play around some too
    Eos Amaterasu: Was thinking of scripting some PaB objects that Villagers could use
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, such as?
    Eos Amaterasu: so we could have a conversation, and set timer to go off at various intervals, for various lengths of time
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, a very good idea
    Eos Amaterasu: for little PaBs
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to use the village more
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I liked our little book meeting... what else do you have in mind?
    Eos Amaterasu: We could do more book club type things
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: heheh, lagged
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel we could do more meetings with even the same book!
    Eos Amaterasu: a village café (maybe next to the hall?)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been thinking quite a bit about contextual memory, and it seems related
    Eos Amaterasu: I've also thought about doing something on "charnel ground", re the conversations we had with SophiaSharon
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes nice idea :) Something with a piano...
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah!
    Eliza Madrigal: That seems ambitious but of course I'd be fascinated
    Eliza Madrigal: don't like pianos? hehe
    Eos Amaterasu: a piano in a charnel ground?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Eliza Madrigal: sure why not
    Eliza Madrigal: Actually, the piano was for the cafe
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh, good
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Do you play?
    Eliza Madrigal: not really... had the obligatory lessons as a child :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Me too
    Eos Amaterasu: Für Elise
    Eliza Madrigal: a terribly strict teacher... rapped fingers with a ruler...
    Eliza Madrigal: the whole shebang :)
    Eos Amaterasu: sonatina by Beethoven (I guess that means For Eliza :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Do you want to say more about contextual memory?
    Eos Amaterasu is also wondering if that can be a 90 secs exercise???
    Alfred Kelberry: hey
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, goodness I'm not sure how it could be... except to get space around situations and contexts...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alfred! :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Alfred
    Alfred Kelberry: em, sorry, i should be on a kira team meeting :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe..
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that's going on, too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you though
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao Alfredo!
    Alfred Kelberry: good to see someone in here though - enjoy the pond :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Just a bit of background: Eos and I organized a little book chat, what seems like eons ago, to discuss Francisco Varela's "Ethical Know-How". 

    Eliza Madrigal: So, with contextual memory and momentariness...
    Eliza Madrigal: I've noticed myself falling back into a pattern of "When __, then __" which is really unhelpful...
    Eliza Madrigal: losing sight of allowing experiences to arise naturally
    Eos Amaterasu: you mean jumping from thought of "when...." to thought of "then...." ?
    Eliza Madrigal: and trusting that they can arise completely... or with little need of my adding help, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: I mean "When __ happens, then I can ___"
    Eos Amaterasu: kind of like the big IF
    Eliza Madrigal: responsibility then becomes steps removed
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Eos Amaterasu: That's a good one

    Eos Amaterasu: Let's not wait to be, let's be


    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: 9 second thoughts?
    Eliza Madrigal: er...90
    Eos Amaterasu: settling down, all the flurries of thoughts about ongoing and new projects
    Eos Amaterasu: the sounds help, they draw you out
    Eos Amaterasu: and they sound inside a "space", which you can feel
    Eos Amaterasu: you are sounding being, being is sounding :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, yes... that's what I experienced... big space in a little window... opened up
    Eliza Madrigal: and color.... the purple of your shirt... the blue of mine...
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a magic about color
    Eos Amaterasu: has different heats, emotions
    Eliza Madrigal once painted a wall a strong red... could not stand, even with my back to it, without 

    being distracted!

    Musical framings for the day...

    Eos Amaterasu: My favorite song about color: Bold as Love, by Jimi Hendrix: lyrics: http://www.metrolyrics.com/bold-as-l...i-hendrix.html
    Eliza Madrigal: but then brought that color onto smaller canvases for a while...
    Eliza Madrigal: everything has its place or time....
    Eos Amaterasu: "And all of these emotions of mine keep holding me from giving my life to a rainbow like you."
    Eos Amaterasu: Little piece of red
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.google.com/ig#max1
    Eliza Madrigal is smiling wide....
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you play other instruments Eos?
    Eliza Madrigal: or prefer to be the instrument :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I played recorder at one point
    Eos Amaterasu: in fact performed for crowning of King and Queen of the Society for Creative Anachronism :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh My! heheh
    Eos Amaterasu: I prefer to be the instrument :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh....this song really flavors the day....
    Eos Amaterasu: Music has been profound part of my path, at least experiencing, discovering it
    Eos Amaterasu: Where does that google link go?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, didn't it work for you? Let me see... Hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdIvy...ayer_embedded#
    Eos Amaterasu: Music is a kind of direct map to state of mind
    Eos Amaterasu: We live inside songs for periods of time (at least I do)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed!

    The video follows to Tracy Chapman singing "Heaven's Here on Earth"...

    Eliza Madrigal: I've been singing this for days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcdF7YyGXis
    Eliza Madrigal: "I've seen and met angels wearing the disguise Of ordinary people leading ordinary lives Filled with love, compassion, forgiveness and sacrifice "
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: speaking of charnel grounds...
    Eos Amaterasu: There are many of those (people)

    Implicit PaB.. wow so many titles to choose from in this session!

    Eos Amaterasu: Would you say they have an implicit at least PaB going on?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I would say that... I'd say there is a natural resplendence in everything, and some are determined to play...
    Eliza Madrigal: and to open windows... and to step out of the way
    Eliza Madrigal: (and die 'not-trying') hehe
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Morning Ya!
    Eos Amaterasu: Good morning (or afternoon) Yak!
    Eliza Madrigal pats the cushion next to her Snapshot_055.jpg
    Eos Amaterasu: Yak, I sent you an invite to the Malta google group list....
    Eliza Madrigal: You missed ya!
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: (was talking about the cushion not malta)
    Eliza Madrigal: *poof*
    Eos Amaterasu: !?
    Eos Amaterasu: Lots of poofing these days in SL
    Eliza Madrigal: He must have been booted, was mid sentence... and yes, SL has been tempermental to say the least
    Eos Amaterasu: wb!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sry had trouble with the client
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, there you are!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: everything was lagging
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, eos
    Yakuzza Lethecus: a new google mail group ?
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Eliza Madrigal smiles contentedly

    Eos and I agree that Yakuzza and Malta are meant to meet one another...

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i really should say ,,i am comming or i am not coming"
    Eos Amaterasu: I think you should say, "I am coming" :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, that's what you should say
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s still in the clouds for me but all rational in my tells me yes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: tells me
    Eliza Madrigal: well gee, when rational and whimsical agree... what more?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in part i like the distant security
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the ability to log off
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not to be forced to these topics here
    Eos Amaterasu: Harder to go poof in RL
    Eliza Madrigal: but it is for a time...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right, i really should :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but did you have a topic before ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i tried to listen through varela´s another time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good thing thats it´s below 100 pages
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, well we talked about music, and space, and memory, village, heaven on earth...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i still didn´t get reading into my daily habits
    Eliza Madrigal: that little book is very surprising
    Eos Amaterasu: you have an audio-book of Varela's Ethical Know-How?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, bad text to speech version, silence i come
    Eliza Madrigal: and coordinated with Stim's audios, quite a powerful opportunity to see the world in another way... as arising new every moment.. or abiding in arising...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: did you listen to stims ethics eliza ?
    Eos Amaterasu: autopoeisis
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I'd listened to half before, now listening to the last few
    Eos Amaterasu: I listened to one the other day.... I've never listened to Steven (give a talk) before
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd listened to many of the regular classes and only found the ethics recently... I really like the open way in which he teaches.....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i only listened though the tuesday session recordings so far
    Eos Amaterasu: 2005 ethics classes?
    Eliza Madrigal: precepts as pointers, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: yes

    More Context...

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to change my daily habits in a way to accidentally hear more about phil/ethics contemplation in general
    Eliza Madrigal: You mean you put yourself in the right places?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Walk by the right cafes?
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i am not very virtuous, it´s just an attempt to make it habitual
    Eos Amaterasu: that's the best way
    Eos Amaterasu: like remembering the PaB suspension....
    Eos Amaterasu: little tricks
    Eliza Madrigal nods..seems so... trying to be virtuous seems a tangle
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm yes
    Eliza Madrigal: there is natural virtue to not trying perhaps
    Eos Amaterasu: re ethics (is that applied PaB) the PaB approach would be through not trying, yes?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, and the question what is virtue, and can virtue be taught ?
    Eos Amaterasu: ie, recognizing and dropping fixations as they come up, as you see them
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, shedding what we've added
    Eos Amaterasu: so that virtue is not something you define and try to meet
    Eliza Madrigal: and maybe preshedding what we're about to add more and more
    Eos Amaterasu: but by shedding you just abide in a "virtuous" being place :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: MMMMM

    Pre-shedding, to me, has reverberations within stories of 'anointing'... of a special kind of oily-ness which causes add-ons like grudges and schemes, to easily fall away... or better not to attach in the first place...  


    Yakuzza Lethecus: just had a lecture about plato´s mino on my ear yesterday
    Eliza Madrigal: did it hurt? heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
    Eos Amaterasu sees the little yellow Meno book on the shelf...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: meno
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right, too bad if you hear everything :)
    Eos Amaterasu: transliteration from Greek
    Eos Amaterasu: these conversation here are a bit like socratic conversations
    Eliza Madrigal: Talk a little about meno, Ya? What were your thoughts?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i haven´t had contact with anyone interested in philosophy until this year
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Eos... midwives for one another :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, it´s about a visitor to athens
    Yakuzza Lethecus: with his slave and socrates discovers things in the slave
    Eos Amaterasu: theme is, can virtue be taught?
    Eliza Madrigal nods...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but for me it´s interesting how many ppl around here got a deepter knowledge about contemplative traditions in general
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and how philosophy builds structures to think problems in reality better

    Being free from static ethics...

    Implicit philosophy...

    Eos Amaterasu: PaB is a "strange attractor" for such people :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i used ethics and moral in the past but only in a very static way
    Eliza Madrigal nods... relate to that
    Eliza Madrigal: in a frozen picture kind of way
    Eos Amaterasu: I think we have philosophy anyway, whether we think we do or not (ie, implicit world-views, mythologies), so might as will uncover those, make explicit
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and only what ,,i thought is moral" or i thought the ppl i am living with together
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: there's contextualization, Eliza....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in the past philosophers were just stupid faggots out of reality so why bother knowing more than quotes like cogito ergo sum to joke about ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean that is pretty much the general thought were i am from

    Hm, missed ya's line, relating what he sees as an attitude toward philosophy in his 1st life environent. I was typing away at the following... 

    Eliza Madrigal: There is a bibilical line which opened up nicely when I began studying buddhism notions of compassion... The line reads 'guard your heart with all diligence for out of it come the issues /virtues of life"... I began to hear "cultivate heart with all attention for from that (naturally) springs the virtures of compassion..." along those lines

    Yakuzza Lethecus: so thats even why i can´t talk about those things in real life
    Eos Amaterasu: have to find the right compatriots, Yak
    Eliza Madrigal: I think that takes time... it naturally spills into RL doesn't it....
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, we can act as strange attractors to each other
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu has not read plato's meno in ages..... a book club selection?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I'd always kind of made fun of 'when student is ready teacher will appear' but... Hm... is true... readiness/capacity seems to draw in what it needs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i won´t attend the club too often :(
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s just too late
    Eos Amaterasu: we can play with the time / place
    Eos Amaterasu: or choose book themes to discuss as part of sessions here
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s fine as it is i don´t want any more events to swap because of me, i don´t like feeling the pressure of ,,having to attend because of that"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just love that there are ppl interested in varela, ways of knowing, gilles philosophical seminar
    Eliza Madrigal: it is a thrill, isn't it... we talked about oasis the other day...
    Eliza Madrigal: a context surely :)
    Eos Amaterasu: That's what I found astounding when I first saw Kira Cafe - a phenomenologist in residence :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have plenty of interesting second life events on thothica, kira herman bergson
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pema really started a great project
    Eos Amaterasu: (have to go to RL events....)
    Eliza Madrigal: The phenom workshop lately is just fabulous... I just sit in
    Yakuzza Lethecus: last week wasn´t ?
    Eos Amaterasu: AH, maybe I can attend it now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was there but nobody was sitting except dali
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for coming this morning Eos!!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eos!
    Eos Amaterasu: Was wonderful, thank you, Eliza, Yakuzza!

    Eliza Madrigal: Fef just sent a great quote on email, have to share:
    Eliza Madrigal: "Actually, enlightenment is quite simple. Think of it in terms of habitually walking through a dark room, bumping into tables, chairs, and other bits of furniture. One day, by luck or accident, we brush against a switch or button that turns on a light. Suddenly we see all the room, all the furniture in it, the walls, and the rugs, and think, "Look at all this stuff here! No wonder I kept bumping into things!" And as we look at all this stuff, perhaps with a sense of wonder at seeing it for the first time, we realize that the light switch was always there. We just didn't know it, or maybe we just didn't think about the possibility that the room could be anything but dark." --Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, Joyful Wisdom

    Eliza Madrigal: Great quote...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: also remembers me to plato´s cave :P
    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to go... am cleaning/decluterring ruthlessly at home and will lose my momentum if I don't stay on task :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya around eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Ya!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now

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