2009.12.09 13:00 - Following up on YS, BS and ES

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session, filling in for Fefonz. Comments will be added later.


    Wol Euler: hello geoff, liza, aubergine

    Geoff Baily: hi wol

    Wol Euler: how is everyone today?

    Aubergine Mint: pretty good thanks

    Aubergine Mint: you?

    Liza Deischer: Im fine thanks

    Wol Euler: mixed. Spent the day on trains, for a meeting in Munich, now vaguely frazzled

    Geoff Baily: well thanks, still full of yesterday'x meeting here

    Wol Euler smiles. There was a lot to think about!

    Geoff Baily: wow!!

    Wol Euler: did anyone try the exercises today?

    Aubergine Mint: will you continue with the ES discussions?

    Liza Deischer: im sorry, no

    Geoff Baily: a little

    Aubergine Mint: I'm not sure how to

    Wol Euler: hello calvino

    Liza Deischer: hi calvino

    Aubergine Mint: hi

    arabella Ella: Hiya

    Geoff Baily: little bit of exercises

    Liza Deischer: hi arabella

    Wol Euler: hello ara

    Calvino Rabeni: hello all

    Geoff Baily: hi Calvino nice to see you

    Liza Deischer: Im still trying to figger out what this is all about

    Wol Euler smiles

    Aubergine Mint: me too

    Geoff Baily: hi arabella

    Wol Euler: well :)

    Liza Deischer: so no practice

    Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you again Geoff

    Wol Euler: there is no hidden agenda, let me say that from the start. Or if there is, it's hidden from me too.

    arabella Ella: :)

    Wol Euler: there is no religious basis, we aren't a cult.

    Geoff Baily: ;)

    Wol Euler: many people find many different things here, I came looking for tools for dealing with unhappiness and anxiety in my RL

    Aubergine Mint: it seems to me that a knowledge of Buddhism would help

    Wol Euler: there are many buddhists in the group, and their vocabulary tends to colour the conversation, yes.

    Qt Core: hi all

    Liza Deischer: well Im a buddhist

    Geoff Baily: Hello Qt

    Wol Euler: buona sera, qt

    arabella Ella: Hiya Qt

    Aubergine Mint: many terms not familiar to me

    Liza Deischer: but you use a lot of short names

    arabella Ella: many terms are not familiar to me either

    Liza Deischer: i dont know from buddhisme

    arabella Ella: but life is a learning experience

    Wol Euler nods. We have been talking to each other concentratedly for quite a while :) shortcuts do develop

    Wol Euler: well, let's carry on with that.

    Liza Deischer: true

    Liza Deischer: its not a real problem

    Liza Deischer: but it takes some time to make sense out of it

    arabella Ella: the nice thing is that when one of us does not understand a word, expression or short cut and asks there is always someone willing to patiently explain

    Wol Euler nods.

    Liza Deischer: true

    Geoff Baily: ;)

    Wol Euler: please, don't hesitate to ask.

    Aubergine Mint: yes, i noticed that

    Aubergine Mint: very welcoming

    Liza Deischer: somebody helped me yesterday in im

    Wol Euler: the only bad question is the one you don't ask.

    arabella Ella: he he

    Liza Deischer: true

    Wol Euler: shall we do an exercise now? YS?

    Aubergine Mint: sure

    Liza Deischer: well then let me ask

    Liza Deischer: YS?

    Geoff Baily: yes please

    Wol Euler: in the break, try to appreciate all that is around you, without judging or imposing valuation

    Wol Euler: "you seeing"

    Wol Euler: just notice what is around you, without judging it.


    Wol Euler: that was a little rushed, I didn't have my eye on the clock. Sorry.

    Wol Euler: any comments on that exercise?

    Aubergine Mint: felt mind opening

    Aubergine Mint: broader awareness

    arabella Ella: i managed a few deep breaths

    Geoff Baily: listening to the fountain

    Wol Euler smiles. Good. For myself, I must admit I didn't manage to relax very far, I was so annoyed at myself for not having started the introduction sooner :)

    arabella Ella smiles

    Wol Euler: so, that is the first version of this particular exercise.

    Wol Euler: I usually find that it does broaden my awareness of my surroundings, as Aubergine said; I realize that there is far more going on around me than I had consciusly taken in before

    Wol Euler: perhaps that entire senses were missing from what I thought was happening. It has happened that I became aware of smells during YS, which I hadn't noticed before

    Wol Euler: I am usually concentrated in literally seeing.

    Qt Core: sometimes even more, just letter seeing (in my case)

    Wol Euler: heheheh

    Qt Core: when only verbal/written comunication and inputs matter

    Mickorod Renard: yes, sometimes I realise I am just a functioning machine,,then I have to remind myself of who and where I am

    Wol Euler nods.

    Geoff Baily: ;) yes

    Wol Euler: (just by the way, I don't want this to be a lecture! please ask questions or offer comments)

    Aubergine Mint: i have a question, kind of off topic

    Wol Euler: fire away

    Qt Core: for my exercise i noticed, more than usual the colors of my bed cover, mostly yellow

    Aubergine Mint: when it is quiet for many minutes is it because many people are in IM conversations?

    Aubergine Mint: or in a meditative state?

    Wol Euler: well :)

    Qt Core: sometimes just distracted ;-)

    arabella Ella: sometimes just thinking

    arabella Ella: or reflecting

    Wol Euler: here I would say most likely meditation, my belief is that there is not much IMing going on.

    Wol Euler: yes, thinking about what was said


    Mickorod Renard: I do a bit, like yesterday was trying to keep Liza informed,,as she was new here

    arabella Ella: but i personally find it peaceful to be quiet here ... the environment is conducive to feeling a sense of peace when reflecting

    Mickorod Renard: oops

    Aubergine Mint: it's hard for a new person to know what is happening sometimes

    Wol Euler nods.

    Liza Deischer: maybe youre thinking to much in sl aubergine :)

    Wol Euler: Though I must say, Aubergine, when you are at a dance club say, and there is silence, then it is highly likely that people are talking in IM :)

    Geoff Baily: takes time to get used to

    Aubergine Mint: i see

    Wol Euler: but one does get used to it with practice :)

    arabella Ella: do you mean ... to get used to on SL in general or here specifically?

    Wol Euler: both :)

    Wol Euler: but particularly SL. It's lifelike but not RL-like

    Geoff Baily: both

    Wol Euler: there is no "whisper in your ear" here, except for IM

    arabella Ella nods

    Wol Euler: if you were at a RL dance club and heard nobody speaking, you would still see their lips moving and know that they were talking privately to each other

    Wol Euler: we don't see that here

    arabella Ella: yes that is an interesting aspect

    Aubergine Mint: thanks, i was wondering about that

    Wol Euler smiles

    Liza Deischer: Wol, youe said, YS is noticing what is around you?

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Liza Deischer: is that also what is in you?

    Wol Euler: very much so! yes.

    Wol Euler: "am I comfortable? am I angry? why are my fists clenched?"

    Liza Deischer: ok

    arabella Ella: yes it could involve emotions, pain, sorry, happiness, etc

    arabella Ella: sorrow i meant

    Wol Euler: the "seeing" is to be taken very loosely: think rather of experiencing in all ways that are open to you

    Wol Euler: the word we commonly use is "appreciation"

    Wol Euler: to see something as it is, without filtering it or judging it, ideally not even putting a name onto it.

    Liza Deischer: ok

    Liza Deischer: I ask because yesterday there was also talk about BS and ES

    Wol Euler: right.

    Wol Euler: Being Seeing is the higher version, if you like.

    Wol Euler: you might think of that as visualization, perhaps.

    Wol Euler: YS is letting yourself appreciate whatever is around or in you.

    Liza Deischer: BS toches symbolism?

    Liza Deischer: touches

    Wol Euler: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaybe :)

    Liza Deischer: that's a long mmmmm :)

    Wol Euler: the same ideal would apply, to see without judging or labelling

    Wol Euler: I hesitated how to answer, neiher "yes" nor "no" is strictly correct as I understand it.

    Liza Deischer: ok

    Liza Deischer: and ES?

    Wol Euler: ES is somewhere between the two. if YS is what you can see, ES tries to see the world from the viewpoint of an enlightened being

    Wol Euler: your viewpoint, if you'd been meditating for 87 years and already reached Nirvana, as it were

    Wol Euler: but were still somehow sitting on the same cushion in the same room :)

    Wol Euler: would the fully enlightened you see things differently to the current you?

    Wol Euler looks at the clock. Shall we do that right now, at the bell?

    arabella Ella: i think Wol is doing an excellent job with her descriptions but

    Mickorod Renard: bs?

    arabella Ella: i think it is also important to add that

    Wol Euler: es

    Mickorod Renard: I thought es was to be avoided

    arabella Ella: one needs practice and patience with these concepts as learning how to use them says lots more than a mere description

    Wol Euler: so let's practice now.

    arabella Ella: :)


    Aubergine Mint: what if I don't want to reach Nirvana as such, but to feel less egocentered and more compassionate, is that BS?

    Wol Euler: yes, ara is right: Listening to me talk about meditation wihtout actually practicing is like listening to me talk about knitting. I

    Wol Euler: It won't do you a damned bit of good unless you actually pick up a pair of needles and some wool :)

    arabella Ella: but dont get me wrong Wol you are explaining it all so nicely

    arabella Ella: honestly

    Liza Deischer: true but you do use the names

    Liza Deischer: does BS suggests a soul?

    arabella Ella: but what i meant is that it is a skill and skills require regular practice

    Geoff Baily: its very helpful

    Mickorod Renard: were we supposed to be doing BS then?

    Liza Deischer: and knowing what you need to do

    Wol Euler nods in all directions.

    Mickorod Renard: he he he

    Qt Core: i don't think i got to es, i only thought that i enl8ightened being would be more forgiving to me about the mess on my desk than myself

    arabella Ella: i would argue we are all human beings with all our fallible selves and weaknesses

    Wol Euler smiles. That's a start!

    Mickorod Renard: you know what,,,I dont know much about all this,,yet I have been comming here for ages...yet, I was speaking to a friend today, who goes to regular meditation sessions in rl,,and he thought I was some master at the art

    Wol Euler: heheheh

    arabella Ella: :)

    Wol Euler: perhaps you know more than you think you do.

    Mickorod Renard: something must be rubbing off on me

    Geoff Baily: nice

    arabella Ella: i know what you mean Mick as I still feel a novice too

    Wol Euler: perhaps you have picked up habits of mind from listening to us, joining in the pauses and exercises

    Qt Core: that's the coolnes of PaB ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: just dont ask what

    Wol Euler: someone said earlier that s/he wasn't aiming for Nirvana, I think.

    Aubergine Mint: that was me

    Wol Euler: that's fine, wonderful in fact. Because you have company, I am not either.

    Wol Euler: I'm going to be on the planet for quite a few more karmic cycles yet, and am fully OK with that :)

    Wol Euler: I'm here (in PaB) as I said, principally to find some tools to help me deal with my life; and I have found them

    arabella Ella: that sounds so lovely Wol

    Wol Euler: I use the exercises as centring and mind-clearing tools, for dealing with stress and the people who inflict it

    Liza Deischer: that is interessting because it tells me something about your goal, your motivation

    Wol Euler: some here might be horrified that I set my sights so low :)

    Aubergine Mint: what are karmic cycles?

    arabella Ella: Ah ... Wol .... I need you as my mentor too ....

    Aubergine Mint: i don't think your sights are low

    Liza Deischer: in Buddhism its the first goal

    Mickorod Renard: I find that too wOL, although I never came here for that purpose

    Aubergine Mint: a more realistic goal perhaps

    Liza Deischer: to achieve a better live

    Qt Core: imagining starting meditating (or something like it) right in front of people annoying me 

    arabella Ella: sounds good to me Qt .... i may be tempted to try that too

    Wol Euler: Aubergine, that was partly in gest. The cycle of karma is a long view of cause and effect, slowly moving up or down the chain of Being towards enlightenment

    Wol Euler: karma itself being hte idea that what I do in this life influences the next. If I behave like Mother Theresa, I'll "move up" a level; if I behave badly, I move down

    Wol Euler: that's a very much oversimplified description, if you are curious you should ask Storm. He can tell you much more and better than I.

    Aubergine Mint: so you think there is a "next life"?

    Wol Euler: what I meant was that I am not aiming to work my way up the ladder and become "free", my goals here are very much more immediate

    Liza Deischer: a better life refers to more opportunities to get an even better life speaking in terms of becoming a better human being

    Wol Euler: yes.

    Mickorod Renard: Stim is also well versed in karma too,,and samsara

    Wol Euler: mmhmm, right; Storm came to mind first because he explicitly believes in Karma and talks about it more

    Wol Euler: have you met Stim yet? his sessions are monday 1pm I think

    Aubergine Mint: yes i came to a monday session but he didn't say much

    Aubergine Mint: very quiet

    Wol Euler: about the "next life"? I don't know. I've learned in the last few years not to rule out things that I cannot find physical proof against.

    arabella Ella: perhaps you may need to try to engage Stim when he is quiet

    Calvino Rabeni: Nice for you to claim that position Wol - many assume they are supposed to choose the "best" sounding thing on the spiritual menu :)

    Wol Euler smiles

    Mickorod Renard: you may like Ways of Knowing on thursdays

    Mickorod Renard: at Kira

    Wol Euler: (a workshop at the Kira Cafe)

    Wol Euler: that's tomorrow, right? 2pm

    arabella Ella: yes

    Mickorod Renard: its on at 14;00 hrs


    Wol Euler: Aubergine, is that OK? did that answer your question?

    Aubergine Mint: yes, thanks for sharing all that

    Mickorod Renard: ok folks, I must head home

    Liza Deischer: ok Mick

    Wol Euler: bye mick, goodnight ara, take care

    Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol

    Liza Deischer: see you

    Geoff Baily: bye arabella

    arabella Ella: i must go too nite everyone and thanks Wol for your clear explanations :)

    Mickorod Renard: bye,,hope to ssee you all soon

    Wol Euler: I want to step back a bit. Liza asked a question that I have been putting off for a quarter-hour now :)

    Liza Deischer: bye both of you

    Qt Core: night mick, ara

    Wol Euler: [13:48] Liza Deischer: does BS suggests a soul?

    Geoff Baily: bye Mick

    Aubergine Mint: bye everyone, thanks again Wol

    Liza Deischer: bye aubergine

    Wol Euler: bye aubergine, take care.

    Qt Core: bye aubergine

    Liza Deischer: yes thats my question

    Qt Core: wouldn't a mind be enough ?

    Geoff Baily: bye Aubergine

    Liza Deischer: because you place ES between YS and BS

    Wol Euler: yes, that's how I see it (and Pema too, these are his terms)

    Qt Core: ops, read it wrong, ys instead of bs

    Wol Euler: I struggled for a long time to figure out what Being meant in this group, in the context of these practices

    Wol Euler: Being is ... everything. All-inclusive.

    Wol Euler: not God (however you define that) but including God

    Wol Euler: not the soul (however you define them) but including all souls

    Wol Euler: I found two images that helped me to grasp that.

    Wol Euler: One is to think of Mister Being, the great big All-Of-Everything-There-Is, lying in the bathtub :)

    Wol Euler: and raising his hand slowly, palm up fingers apart, out of the water

    Wol Euler: imagine yourself very small and very close to him

    Wol Euler: you see the fingertips break the surface, and think that they are separate phenomena

    Wol Euler: isolated from each other, not related

    Wol Euler: but htey are part of the same hand

    Liza Deischer: nice image

    Liza Deischer: :)

    Wol Euler: "No man is an island" as the poet said.

    Wol Euler: our souls do connect.

    Geoff Baily: nice

    Wol Euler: and our atoms do as well.

    Liza Deischer: but initialy I woud think that is ES

    Wol Euler: yes, I'm still trying to answer whether Being is the soul :)

    Wol Euler: Being includes the soul.

    Liza Deischer: ok, sorry

    Wol Euler: consider perhaps that our souls are a line drawn across a sheet of paper

    Wol Euler: and that the paper is floating three-dimensionally through the space of a room

    Wol Euler: there are dimensions other than those we live in

    Wol Euler: time is like this too, the time that we experience passing by is very different to what the physicists calculate with

    Wol Euler: and that is different again to the time that God would live in (if you happen to believe in God)

    Wol Euler: we are -- the world is -- small instances of Being manifested in a bit of space and time that we can see

    Wol Euler: the other analogy that I found really useful is to think of our SL avatars

    Wol Euler: and how they relate to us.

    Wol Euler: this is particularly interesting for those who have more htan one avatar!

    Wol Euler: the SL avatar is to the RL person, as that person is to Being.

    Wol Euler: we are avatars of one Being.

    Wol Euler: so (finally the answer :) it's not really correct to say that Being is the soul, when we talk about Being Seeing

    Wol Euler: because that is too small, too isolated.

    Wol Euler: Being Seeing envisions everything that exists seeing itself, being itself

    Liza Deischer: thank you

    Qt Core: don't really like this analogy, is Being controlling us ?

    Wol Euler: no more than gravity does :)


    Liza Deischer: i think i now understand the differences you make a littlge better

    Wol Euler: or perhaps to reverse the question: do you control what your toenails do?

    Qt Core: then being in this case would be the ram of linden servers ;-)

    Qt Core: yes, i move them (ok, i move the toes) and cut them i have their fate in my hands

    Wol Euler smiles. Your fate is also not in your hands, QT, or do you know now the day on which you will die?

    Geoff Baily: thankyou Wol, very helpful,

    Wol Euler: good, I'm pleased. thank you liza, geoff

    Geoff Baily: I must go now bye all

    Wol Euler: bye geoff, take care.

    Liza Deischer: bye geoff

    Qt Core: no, obviously, i was going woth me being the Being of my toenails

    Geoff Baily: thanks again

    Wol Euler: that's actually a pretty good analogy, I think. I do not make my toenails grow, I trust that they do, and that they will not turn into flowers.

    Wol Euler: they do their own growing, and sometimes they do surprise me. Then I have to trim them a little.

    Wol Euler: and that trimming might well seem to them as random and unmotivated as a car accident does to those involved in it

    Wol Euler: I really like the image of us as lines on a page, to think of Being looking down onto the page

    Wol Euler: Being would have an entirely different understanding than we can.

    Wol Euler: because it has dimensions that are not available to us.

    Wol Euler: us thinking about Being is like those tiny flies that only live 24 hours meeting Mount Everest. They have no hope of understanding what the mountain is.

    Wol Euler: they are in the wrong dimensions for that.

    Liza Deischer: you sounded angry about this concept (including all concepts) QT

    Liza Deischer: like you still have a question

    Qt Core: maybe it is only one ;-)

    Qt Core: sorry.wrong tenses... i'd like it would be only one ;-)

    Wol Euler smiles

    Qt Core: i was just a little shocked by the sl analogy, it was like a weight put on me, a feeling about Being controlling me, not just existing, mostly unaware of little me

    Wol Euler: yes, I see what you mean. I hadn't actually thought it through that far

    Wol Euler: but actually, you know: you'd be surprised by the extent to which SL avatars have lives of their own

    Wol Euler: my avs are quite different from each other, they have their own desires and styles, and these sometimes surprise me

    Qt Core: the us being Being and a bodypart being us would be better considering for us, a lone hair

    Wol Euler: though obviously "I" do steer them

    Qt Core: are we aware of all of them, no, but they are still part of us, of Being

    Wol Euler: yes, also a good analogy.

    Wol Euler: and also ties into my image of Mister Being in the bath :)))


    Qt Core: time to go, bye all

    Wol Euler: yes, me too, it#s late.

    Liza Deischer: bye QT

    Liza Deischer: same here

    Wol Euler: goodnight qt

    Wol Euler: bye liza, bye calvino. Take care.

    Qt Core: 'night all

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye,all :)

    Liza Deischer: thanks Wol for you explanations

    Wol Euler: my pleasure, I'll try to close my mouth occasionally next time :)

    Liza Deischer: meaning?

    Wol Euler: that I think I talk too much.

    Liza Deischer: didnt notice

    Wol Euler smiles. Thank you.

    Liza Deischer: yet :)

    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care.

    Liza Deischer: goodnight

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