2009.12.29 13:00 - gaming - illusion - beauty

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Chrismas chatting...

    Lia Rikugun: hello Liza
    Liza Deischer: hi Lia
    Lia Rikugun: how was chrismas for you?
    Lia Rikugun: or did you not celebrate?
    Liza Deischer: yes the first day, with my family
    Liza Deischer: it was okay
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Liza Deischer: and yours
    Lia Rikugun: yes ok too :) also with my family, everybody tried to cook something
    Lia Rikugun: and then we had a complete dinner
    Liza Deischer: thats nice
    Liza Deischer: we kept it simple
    Liza Deischer: no one was interessted in cooking :-)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe too much stress
    Liza Deischer: yep
    Liza Deischer: but started eeting in the afternoon anyway, and didnt stop until midnight :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi Zon
    Lia Rikugun: wow
    Liza Deischer: my stomach is okay now :-)
    Lia Rikugun: for chrismas you always eat so so much
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello zon
    Zon Quar: heya
    Liza Deischer: hi Bert
    Liza Deischer: sorry Zon, you almost have the same sweater as Bert has
    Zon Quar: really
    Liza Deischer: same colours
    Zon Quar: cant see yet
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    Liza Deischer: hi Ara, still celebrating christmas?
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zon Quar: hi ara ã‹¡
    Lia Rikugun: wow nice smiley
    arabella Ella: any excuse for celebration :)
    Zon Quar: no
    Zon Quar: u need an excuse for not celebratting
    arabella Ella smiles ...cant but agree

    warm weather on Malta!

    Zon Quar: especially if u r in warm mediterranean island
    arabella Ella: had another christmas lunch today
    arabella Ella: yes ... with lovely temperatures in the mid 20s for some weeks now
    Lia Rikugun: nice!
    Liza Deischer: here its raining
    arabella Ella: owwww
    Liza Deischer: and cold
    Lia Rikugun: here too :( so saaad
    Liza Deischer: Im jealous :-)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    arabella Ella: I just hope we have this weather for the malta retreat ... fingers tightly crossed
    Lia Rikugun: yesyes!
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody
    Liza Deischer: hi Agatha
    Lia Rikugun: hello agatha
    arabella Ella: Hiya Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: ;
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    arabella Ella: on sunday morning it was around 28 degrees which is incredible for this time of the year
    Zon Quar: please...
    Liza Deischer: that's a little bit too hot for me
    arabella Ella: believe me it is very comfortable
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: I just dont want to put down my leather jacket :-)
    arabella Ella: it is really hot in summer when it gets to be 35 and higher
    arabella Ella: :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Aubergine
    Agatha Macbeth: Erk
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aubergine
    Liza Deischer: Erk?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Aubergine
    Lia Rikugun: hello aubergine
    Zon Quar: hi A
    Agatha Macbeth: Can't remember why I said that now
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, it was Ara's 35 degrees
    Liza Deischer: but wat does it mean?
    Lia Rikugun: hello calvino
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    Agatha Macbeth: Means it's waaaay too hot for me...
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Liza Ag and all
    Liza Deischer: I agree
    Liza Deischer: I mena, it is also too hot for me
    Zon Quar: Cal
    Liza Deischer: mean
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: :) arabella

    "any theme session today?"

    arabella Ella: does anyone know whether Pema intends to have the theme session today?
    arabella Ella: now i mean?
    Liza Deischer: good question
    Agatha Macbeth: I think he would probably be here already
    Zon Quar: what is a theme session
    arabella Ella: a session based on a particular topic
    Calvino Rabeni: The last announcement had no theme session for today
    Lia Rikugun: he sent an email earlier
    arabella Ella: ah
    Lia Rikugun: but there was no theme session for today
    Calvino Rabeni: Tomorrow at 13:00 is one on Sustainability
    arabella Ella: ah yes the one with doug i guess?

    Bertram and Eliza arrive, they seem to be holding hands ;) and Zon and Bertram are wearing the same T-Shirt

    Liza Deischer: hi Bert
    Lia Rikugun: hello betram
    Agatha Macbeth: Yo Bertie
    Zon Quar: bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody ... :-)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram
    Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: And Eliza too :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello elizas
    arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :) Funny rezzing today... see just Ara's hat and hair, and only hair for Zon and Cal and Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Aaaaw, you looked like you were holding hands for a moment!
    Agatha Macbeth: Sweet
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. who eliza and me ? :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Yup
    arabella Ella: just appreciate it all Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Hee hee
    Zon Quar: yes bert has my sweater
    arabella Ella: i can see Zon as a cloud and I cant see Eliza at all
    Bertram Jacobus: no
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Bertram Jacobus: you have mine :o)
    Liza Deischer: almost
    Zon Quar: ilet u have it
    Eliza Madrigal: just missing a scarf Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Or mine :)
    Liza Deischer: I thought you were already here Bert
    Zon Quar: oh there it is
    Bertram Jacobus: why that liza (!?) :-)
    Zon Quar: i was missing it
    Liza Deischer: because I saw a white sweater with blue on the shoulders, and a pair of jeans
    Liza Deischer: but it happened to be Zon :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. lo. i see :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: There is big business this year in 'ugly christmas sweaters"... people having parties, etc. (Though your sweaters are lovely, guys) :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably all presents :)
    Zon Quar: ugly..waht is it
    arabella Ella: reminds me of some of the sweaters worn in Bridget Jones movie
    Eliza Madrigal: the ones with little bells and animals on them....
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly Ara!
    Zon Quar: well im daniel and bert is the good guy
    arabella Ella: embarrasing to wear but often ... not possible to do otherwise
    Eliza Madrigal: Well the parties seemed a fun idea... if a little kitchy (sp?)
    Agatha Macbeth: Kitschy?
    arabella Ella: i kinda like the idea ... but first time i am hearing about it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    arabella Ella: kitch ... flashy, bad taste, loud
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Bert, no fun. :) I was *not* refering to your perfectly tasteful sweater!
    Liza Deischer: Hey Bert, where are you.....? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: ooooh quick change artist
    arabella Ella: where is your sweater now Bert?
    Qt Core: hi all
    Liza Deischer: hi T
    arabella Ella: Hiya Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt
    Bertram Jacobus: in the wardrobe
    Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera QT
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! :-) ...
    arabella Ella: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: With the Lion and the Witch?
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Qt Core: 'sera Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: :-)

    walking into another world through a secret pathway

    Agatha Macbeth: Imagine walking through the back of a wardrobe into another world
    arabella Ella: would be great
    Agatha Macbeth: Sure would!
    Bertram Jacobus: if you have a computer there ... could work ... ;-)
    arabella Ella: but dont we do just that here on SL?
    Eliza Madrigal: the best stories.. secret worlds open in the midst of ordinary things...
    arabella Ella: through our monitors
    Agatha Macbeth: Wonder if it would be like SL on the other dide?
    Agatha Macbeth: side
    Agatha Macbeth: There you go :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, there are fauns and dragons and fairies oh my :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And the wicked queen!
    Eliza Madrigal: brrr
    Liza Deischer: its an interesting idea, how would our world be looking like
    Eliza Madrigal: SophiaSharon once made a gate around her house that approaching I felt as though I'd fallen into "The Secret Garden" which was a favorite book from childhood
    Liza Deischer: look like
    arabella Ella: how lovely
    Eliza Madrigal: of course she changed it right after... hah... impermanence
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes Eliza, i remember it
    Agatha Macbeth: The book that is
    Agatha Macbeth: Not the garden
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: it was a movie too
    Liza Deischer: ....if we could get behind our material world

    project natal

    Bertram Jacobus: somebody introduced a few days before the "project natal" here - also a virtual world access - found that quite exciting ... and was quite similar to our known world, only a bit different. we could make out of our phantasies what ever we like ... hm
    Bertram Jacobus: sry. and this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxU_T7C4Ils&feature=related
    arabella Ella: is it another virtual world Bertram?
    Eliza Madrigal: a way to share pizza ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: especially its a virtual character (!)
    Bertram Jacobus: which interacts with the user
    Eliza Madrigal: seems to ask questions like 'what is touch?"
    Bertram Jacobus: who please ? :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: this technology itself Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: In project natal, your whole body is the controller
    Bertram Jacobus: this technology = "milo" eliza ?
    Eliza Madrigal: meaning, the person responds to the person responding... is a kind of feeling
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so you may be more fully embodied in its virtual world
    Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call it "technology"
    Eliza Madrigal: what would you call it?
    Bertram Jacobus: milo for example
    Eliza Madrigal: just Milo :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes :-))
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Milo Minderbinder :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol agatha
    Bertram Jacobus: we can drop him too
    Eliza Madrigal: My imaginary friend's name was Sassy... so I hope all of them don't have to be Milo ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal guffaws
    Agatha Macbeth: Why Sassy?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh I don't have a clue... would have to ask the 4 or 5 year old I think :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Children have Alts
    Agatha Macbeth: Aaaw
    Bertram Jacobus: all of whom ? sry must ask silly today a lot like it seems
    Eliza Madrigal: yes they do, Cal!
    Calvino Rabeni: Later they try to be One
    Lia Rikugun: wow thats funny with the mirror image in the water! ( watching the youtube video)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bert, I was just suggesting that maybe "Milo" himself is just one of many personalized variations... suitable for individuals :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. ty eliza !
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: mirror image !? i did not notice or do not remember ... see my awareness ...
    Lia Rikugun: :) on the video the 'real' woman looks onto the screen and into the water there
    arabella Ella: they seem to be calling it a game and there seem to be similarities with WII
    Lia Rikugun: and can see somehow her miorrored image in the water
    Eliza Madrigal: wild
    Bertram Jacobus: and the virtual and real world more and more mixe up i find ...
    Lia Rikugun: and her movements move the water surface
    Lia Rikugun: so thats cool :)

    What is real in a virtual world and real life?

    Liza Deischer: You can ask yourself what is real in both virtual world as in rl
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bertram Jacobus: for me most things are real ...
    Liza Deischer: what is it that makes it real?
    Bertram Jacobus: the reality
    Bertram Jacobus: that i can touch, smell, see something -
    Zon Quar: if something affests ur thoughts, feelings, it is real
    Calvino Rabeni: everything is real - including your "illusions"
    Zon Quar: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: its a great question. Illusions can affect our feelings and thoughts...

    how real are violent games?

    arabella Ella: for me the problem arises with really violent games and stuff
    arabella Ella: the destructive sort
    Bertram Jacobus: illusions is a word that i noticed the last days in the way that i don´t know much about them ...
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zon Quar: world can been seen as an illusion
    Bertram Jacobus: i can´t do that
    Zon Quar: like indian philosophy does
    Liza Deischer: people who are gaming say they are not really effected in real life
    Bertram Jacobus: would not be real to me
    Liza Deischer: they dont want to schoot anybody, they claim
    Zon Quar: it all dpends on how we want to define real
    Liza Deischer: so whats the difference Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: my experiences are different : not illusionory, at least more real
    Calvino Rabeni: It does not seem possible Liza, for there to be no detrimental effect
    Lia Rikugun: if you do something too long it might fell more rreal at some point
    arabella Ella: there has been an ongoing debate for decades now on whether TV violence has any effects ... and this will probably ... or has already spilt over into the effects of some games
    Liza Deischer: well, I think so too Cal, but we do make a difference
    Zon Quar: of course it has i thin. it provides pattern off behviour
    Eliza Madrigal: the lines can become thinner and thinner... and for someone aware that they are gaming maybe there is no danger... but for those gaming because they have violent tendencies they want to play out and are working up to... scary
    Bertram Jacobus: you meant the difference between illusion and reality liza ?
    Liza Deischer: the difference between the reality of violent games and the reality of say sl
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. the more or less violent aspect for example
    Liza Deischer: te way we perceive it
    Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aubergine
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Aubergine :)
    Lia Rikugun: bye aubergine
    arabella Ella: well SL is also a game for some ... and some use it for venting violence too
    arabella Ella: bye Aubergine
    Agatha Macbeth: Anyone who can't tell the difference between a game and real life has serious mental issues anyway IMHO
    Liza Deischer: we seem to make a difference of what we want to be real or not
    Qt Core: bye aubergine
    Agatha Macbeth: C ya Minty
    Liza Deischer: bye aubergine, she said a little late
    Liza Deischer: of = between
    Zon Quar: if reading a book is real as it has effects on our behaviour, why not computer game or sl, wich is more intensive ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or driving a car
    Eliza Madrigal: that which provides repetition... a book forces a slower pace....
    Zon Quar: what is real life ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Now *that* is dangerous- especially if it's me :)
    Liza Deischer: what is real?
    Bertram Jacobus: movement zon ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I always thought, anyone with a spiritual practice, would extrapolate, to understand the effects on consciousness of something like a video game
    Agatha Macbeth: What is life?

    seeing violence in non-real ways exorcizes it or maybe frustrates the desire or trivialize the value of life..

    Qt Core: i think seeing violence (in movies/book) or even more playing it in games (and sports) may exorcize it and so you don't vent it at real people
    Bertram Jacobus: reality liza ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes QT :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Qt, on the other hand, perhaps it frustrates the desire
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s simply movement agatha -
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than sublimating or expressing it
    Eliza Madrigal: That's what Steven King says too, Qt
    Agatha Macbeth: What is Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: live = movement
    Bertram Jacobus: life*
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah I see :)
    Qt Core: for extreme cases, i go (wentr i didn't dp it in a while) search for a fight in chatrooms ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Going through the motions?
    arabella Ella: there is also the argument that movies which are violent can trivialise the value of life
    Bertram Jacobus: also, yes agatha :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice play with words
    Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
    Liza Deischer: live = movement, interesting
    Zon Quar: meme is a copied behavior pattern, we copy everything, also violent behaviour patterns i fthey are made acceptable
    Eliza Madrigal: Ara, I'd think it depends on the intention and the way they are handled? a lot like the art v porn discussions I think
    Calvino Rabeni: any image exists in body and culture at same time
    Qt Core: that is more a problem of discriminating real from fake/virtual
    Agatha Macbeth: Do the games reflect society or does society reflect the games?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    arabella Ella: yes Eliza
    arabella Ella: i sometimes wonder what attracts people towards violence
    Liza Deischer: my teacher wanted to explain karma
    Bertram Jacobus: vice versa agatha ?
    Liza Deischer: to him it is al in the habitual patterns
    Agatha Macbeth: Or something Bert :)
    Eliza Madrigal: loops
    Bertram Jacobus: may be evolution ara
    Zon Quar: like school shootings..copied behavoiur
    arabella Ella: why evolution Bert?
    Calvino Rabeni: why do people watch violent movies - to be angry - why watch horror movies - to be fearful
    Bertram Jacobus: because violence is an important aspect while developing i fear ara ... ;-)
    Qt Core: but in a controlled, safe ambient, calvino
    Agatha Macbeth: Chacun a son gout, no?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: welcome to babylon *jokin*
    Agatha Macbeth: Hey! Leave babylon alone :)
    Liza Deischer: sorry Agatha?
    Eliza Madrigal: my children and their alts are tugging at me. Thanks for the interesting session :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Agatha Macbeth: What?
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza - have a good rtime !
    Liza Deischer: bye eliza

    illusion versus delusion

    Zon Quar: is real only that what we percieve with our senses ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Eliza
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Words like "illusion" won't tell you "why". Have to see that for oneself. http://www.snappywords.com/?lookup=illusion
    arabella Ella: our dreams are real too
    Lia Rikugun: bye eliza
    Liza Deischer: my dreams are violent sometimes
    Agatha Macbeth: What's the difference between illusion and delusion?
    Agatha Macbeth: Or is there one?
    Zon Quar: dont ask me im dreaming
    Calvino Rabeni: Liza, do you have a comment on the dreaming?
    Agatha Macbeth: Me too :)
    arabella Ella: delusion involves negative aspects
    Agatha Macbeth: Illusion can do that too Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: illusion may be less linked with intent ... (then delusion)
    Liza Deischer: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: Is Beauty in the eye of the beholder?
    Liza Deischer: Im just curious
    Bertram Jacobus: other way round sry
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably
    Zon Quar: yes Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Entirely, zon?
    Zon Quar: we think that is beautiful what we want
    Zon Quar: we dont want something because it is beautiful
    Agatha Macbeth: Time to go methinks. Take care all.
    arabella Ella: bye Agatha
    Lia Rikugun: i think i need to go too
    Lia Rikugun: you all take care
    arabella Ella: nite Lia
    Lia Rikugun: good night :)
    Liza Deischer: so am I
    Zon Quar: bye Lia
    Liza Deischer: see you all next time
    Zon Quar: Liza
    arabella Ella: nite Liza

    I left at this point and wont try to comment the remainder of the session :) main topic is 'Beauty'

    arabella Ella: i like your questions on beauty Zon
    arabella Ella: what do you think beauty is?
    Zon Quar: answer to my desire
    Bertram Jacobus: nice answer
    arabella Ella: but dont your desires go beyond beauty?
    arabella Ella: like when hungry and eating
    arabella Ella: or when socialising and drinking alcohol
    Calvino Rabeni: Some say, desire itself is founded in beauty
    Zon Quar: well the food looks then delicuos
    Zon Quar: and beautiful
    arabella Ella: :)
    Qt Core: something i can observe (with whechever sense) and don't have the urge to analyze
    Zon Quar: i thinkk desire is basic
    Calvino Rabeni: analysis may block perception of beauty
    Calvino Rabeni: except for mathematicians :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    arabella Ella: symmetry is often considered to be part of beauty
    arabella Ella: in maths, in human faces, in art
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, but a true beauty always has a touch of the uncanny
    Calvino Rabeni: it is an essential
    Qt Core: yes, but i feel thet something is nice when i don't wont to immediatly analyze that so it goers bioth way
    Calvino Rabeni: which tells something about beauty
    arabella Ella: it is scarey though to see the influence of the media on what young people consider as beautiful ... like very thin people for example
    arabella Ella: or like cosmetic surgery
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time, ty and may all beings be happy please (!) ... *wave* ...
    Qt Core: trying bert ;-)
    arabella Ella: guten nacht bert
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: ty all ! :-)
    Zon Quar: afcourse u have the truth, beauty, and good as abstarct qualities, but not very easy to grasp
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, but they are not abstract
    Qt Core: i have to go too, bye all
    arabella Ella: notte Qt
    Zon Quar: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: they can't be grasped as abstract, because they aren't
    Zon Quar: but still i think ther eis a basic desire in us
    Zon Quar: to live
    Zon Quar: to be
    Zon Quar: to create
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, I have to go - right in the middle of a classic philo discussion about the True, the Good, and the Beautiful.
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zon Quar: heheh
    arabella Ella: bye Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with all that, Zon
    Zon Quar: we must slove this next time
    Calvino Rabeni: bye for now
    Zon Quar: solve
    Zon Quar: bfn, i go too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nihgt everyone
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