2010.08.27 06:00 - Which Eye Watch Which I

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza, who posted most "hello!s & goodbye!s from this again well-attended time session, at the bottom of this log. :)

 Lots to say about this session but perhaps just better to read. :)

Pema Pera: Well, I must say, I continue to be surprised and amazed at the wealth of ideas, feelings, insights, sketches, you name it, of the reports!
Dao Yheng: Nice to see you in your Magritte outfit!
Pema Pera: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2f%2f08%2f%2f27%3a_Reports

Pema Pera: each week I think "this is it, wow!" and the next week it gets richer :-)
Bleu Oleander: ty Dao
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Maxine Walden: there does seem to be a creative momentum in the repots...
Pema Pera: and so poetic . . . take SophiaSharon's piece for example!
Maxine Walden: and it feels like we are still on the upswing of that momentum
Maxine Walden: yes, wonderful Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: it takes real openness to play openly... really enjoyed that sharon, thank you
Eliza Madrigal: hah... bad sentence but you know what i mean
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks, so many complicated thoughts arose, seemed to be written simply
Pema Pera: that's poetry :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh. laughs
Pema Pera: but I enjoyed all the reports -- I used to try to summarize a tidbit from each one, before, but now I can't even see myself doing that, there's just too much (^_^)
Pema Pera: I also enjoyed the email exchanges . . . yet another channel to share and stimulate each other to go just one step further
Pema Pera: so let's just all comment and continue sharing!
Dao Yheng: the incredible honesty in all the reports was very moving -- all pointing to something valuable and valued
Maxine Walden: creativity bursting into other channels (email links)
Bleu Oleander: yes, Dao, very valuable and valued :)
Eliza Madrigal: very much so
Eden Haiku: Loved the visual Bleu created. One image, a 1000 words...:)
Maxine Walden: indeed!!
Bleu Oleander: art has always been that for me :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! and your avatar!
Eden Haiku: And it is nice to have her Magritte with us:)
Bleu Oleander: it's my language
Maxine Walden: :))
Pema Pera: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: Yes beautiful image Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: ty :)

Maxine Walden: for me right now we seem to be appreciating the wider creative space we are each stirring in ourselves and each other...
SophiaSharon Larnia: for something that's difficult to express in language, it's helpful to try different 'languages'
Bleu Oleander: agree Sharon
Eliza Madrigal: refreshing :)

Dao Yheng: Maybe it's not an accident that by allowing yourself to be seen, you find your own language more easily?
Eden Haiku: "Hiding and allowing to be seen are key elements in our relationship with time" (in chapter 3) Can you say more about that Pema ? (hiding her smile)
Liza Deischer is wondering about Bleu's image and avatar; it's intruiging
Pema Pera smiling back half-hidingly
Maxine Walden: 'hiding' may also contribute to the 'necessary distance' for seeing more deeply
Fefonz Quan seconds Eden's question
Pema Pera: time is presenting everything . . . so it is hard to hide from time
Bleu Oleander: it's Magritte's painting "Le Faux Miroir" Liza
Pema Pera: we can try to hide from ourselves, or from others
Pema Pera: but how can we hide from time?
Pema Pera: does that make sense, Eden, somehow :-) ?
Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2f%2f08%2f%2f27%3a_Reports/2010%2f%2f08%2f%2f26_Bleu_Oleander <--bleu's report

Eden Haiku: "Time reveals"
Dao Yheng: yes, maxine -- like a deer?
Liza Deischer: I understand, read the report
Maxine Walden: yes, :)
Fefonz Quan: i am still confused, what does it mean "hiding from time"
Pema Pera: yes, Bleu's blue avatar, as promised :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
Pema Pera: what do you think it might mean, Fef?
Fefonz Quan: is Time watching?
Fefonz Quan: or watching me?
Pema Pera: interesting questions . . .what possible answers do you think could there be?
Pema Pera: apart from right or wrong, what would be the kind of answer that might apply?
Eden Haiku: Everything gets revealed at the end of times? (chuckling)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: judgment day!
Fefonz Quan: i am not sure, time is the flow, the change, the revelation of experience
Liza Deischer: (but the avatar is 'simplified' hiding things or revealing something new and maybe both; just pondering about that concept)

Fefonz Quan: it's hard to think of it as something looking at myself personnaly
Pema Pera: there is no need to try to personify time, as a kind of super being, that's not what I had in mind

Bleu Oleander: are we nodes of time?
Fefonz Quan: yes, that's the direction that didn't appeal to me
Liza Deischer: (can we maybe see more by taking away features)
Eliza Madrigal: interesting question
SophiaSharon Larnia: what kind of features?
Pema Pera: if we are droplets appearing in the fountain of time, it's hard to hide from the fountain the moment we appear, don't you think?
Eliza Madrigal: ...what would you take away? yes...

Fefonz Quan: in order to hide from something, it should be outside of you
Liza Deischer: well, in this case I see only a pupil, and eye, taking away mouth, nose, etc.
Pema Pera: I can hide perfectly well from myself, Fefonz :-)
Liza Deischer: but it is also a reflection of what is
Pema Pera: done it many times . . .
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Liza Deischer: maybe more deeper then the senses together can provide
Fefonz Quan: yes, that can be done since "myself" can be a narrow point of view, that right now really doesn't want to look at the corner
Pema Pera: that's an essential aspect, yes
Pema Pera: seeing uses a narrow focus, being seen can be done without any specific focus
Fefonz Quan: if i close my eyes, the whole world is hidden from me, but that's easy
Pema Pera: but not the world of appearance, the world of phenomena
Fefonz Quan: but time, ifever, can't have this narrow point of view
Liza Deischer: but doesn't a narrow focus allow us to see more deeply?
Pema Pera: in a narrow way, yes :)
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: like concentration in a way can open up things that are connected to the whole
Liza Deischer: like the eye is maybe a reflection of the 'soul'? just wondering
Pema Pera: (but don't let me dominate the conversation, I'd love to hear what all of you have to say, in response to both the chapter and the reports -- I've said/written a lot already :-)
Fefonz Quan: (the notion that "I" can hide from "myself", needs a divided "I" in order to do so :)
Eden Haiku: If we close our eyes, we awake the witness.

Dao Yheng: For me, Bleu's avatar reminds me of the unity of the seen and the seer -- total intimacy -- that's just my angle, though

Fefonz Quan: So - which I (eye?) watch which I?
Eliza Madrigal: the drop trying to see the fountain would be exhausted rather quickly...
Liza Deischer: yes Dao
Liza Deischer: :) Fonz
Bleu Oleander: yes, Dao :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I can say that this weeks exercise was much easier then last week
Fefonz Quan nods to Dao, too
Bleu Oleander: getting comfortable with being seen
SophiaSharon Larnia: like some kind of acclimation
Fefonz Quan: (SSL - wasn't it the same exercise, or id you mean repeating it had different results?)

Eden Haiku: ::::Which eye watch which eye:::::False mirror intimacies:::::Time is our witness

SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, the same :)
Maxine Walden: :)), Eden
Eliza Madrigal: nice Eden :)))
Dao Yheng: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: repeating it was less, I don;t have the word, traumatic isn't quite it
Eden Haiku: ::::Which eye watch which I (better)
Fefonz Quan: less intimidating?
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Pema Pera enjoys as always Haiku's haikus
Eden Haiku: ;)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
Bleu Oleander: is either eye a reflection of the other?
Eden Haiku: What's in a name :)
Pema Pera: I'm very glad to hear that, about the being seen exploration getting easier
Fefonz Quan: (haven't I just wrote it a few sentences ago? hmmm)
Eliza Madrigal: Last week it felt like stirring things up that were hidden and this week more coming to terms with that kind of view
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Eden Haiku: We are getting more comfortable with being seen as Bleu said.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
nio Artful: there is a world out there......but we see an idol of it actualy that idol is our existance defferantiated acording to the out enviroment is there is a world out there ....the only thing we have are feelings......feelings and sensations is our excistance ...our excistance take the shapes of out world through our sensations the out signals are trasformed to that we are .the only thing we can see -feel- is our excistance as it takes the shapes and sounds of out reality is
nio Artful: sory i am greek
nio Artful: i canot explain easy
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Maxine Walden: Greek wisdom is always welcome?)
nio Artful: Thank you! :)
Maxine Walden: welcome
Pema Pera: ephcharisto, nio :-)
nio Artful: smiles
nio Artful: yw
Fefonz Quan: G(r)eeks shouldn't apologize here ;-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
Maxine Walden: :)), Fef
nio Artful: hehe
Pema Pera wondering how to respond to Fef . . . grr or eek
Fefonz Quan: who do you think made this world in the first place?
Liza Deischer: it is a bit like the filter we have been talking about with a few of us
Liza Deischer: I mean Nio's command :)
Liza Deischer: *comment
Liza Deischer: as in the human mind is a filter upon what is
Liza Deischer: so we can only show what we can see through our filter
Pema Pera: so we think . . .
Liza Deischer: I hope that is a good summary :)
Liza Deischer: it is not what I think :)
Fefonz Quan: (i'll have to leave now, unfortunately, this is such an inspiring meeting. i wish a wonderful weekend to all of you).
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Fefonz
Maxine Walden: and to you, Fef
Pema Pera: ah okay, I see Liza
Liza Deischer: bye Fonz
Bleu Oleander: bye Fef
nio Artful: bye...
Pema Pera: bye Fef
Eden Haiku: Bye Fefonz!
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Dao Yheng: bye!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef
Pema Pera: Hi Susan!
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Susan
Liza Deischer: but it relates to what you are saying in your chapter
Eliza Madrigal: HI Susan :)
nio Artful: hi susan
Liza Deischer: maybe we need something to really see, using a different kind of tool then our senses and mind
Liza Deischer: hi Susan :)
Liza Deischer: radically different
Pema Pera: the challenge is to drop using the currency of "existence" and "subject and object"
Pema Pera: and we can do that not by logical arguing, but by jumping in
Pema Pera: we have to start with feeling our way around, then report, then reflect
Pema Pera: in that order
Eden Haiku: Welcome Susan :)
Eliza Madrigal: just see, rather than try to see?
Pema Pera: otherwise it becomes a philosopher's game
Susan Aloix: Hey nio....liza :)
Liza Deischer: right
Pema Pera: or just be seen :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
nio Artful: hi
Susan Aloix: thanks Eden :)
Liza Deischer: but maybe that was intruiging to me in Bleu's avatar
Liza Deischer: whatever it is, it is different!!
--BELL--
 

Pema Pera: so we are opening new doors, walk into new guardens, collect new flowers, show them to each other, and then we reflect and try to make sense of it all -- we're not setting up a terrace in front of the doors to argue about what we think can possibly be found -- logic has a role, but as a wrapper, interpreter, not a guide. At least that's how I understand logic's role. Would anybody like to comment, do we all see it that way?

nio Artful: the first healthy feeling that indicates awareness of reality is AWE In here and now we can test our selfs mental health of the amount of AWE we feel when we are looking ,,,a tree an animall or onky our hands in deep focus
nio Artful: onky = only
Pema Pera: yes, nio, Awe or Appreciation -- the title of the next chapter :-)
Maxine Walden: Agree, in fact it feels to me that logic or pre-mature thought may hamper or limit possible evolutions of the flowers/awarenesses
SophiaSharon Larnia: I feel a bit of hesitency, in voicing something my mind may find illogical
Eden Haiku: Well, openinmg new doors certianly Pema. The time sessions experiences have been very transformative, collecting much new flowers,walking in beautiful nbew gardens.
Dao Yheng: (wish I could stay, but I'll have to go now too -- thanks all!)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Dao :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Dao, thanks :)
Liza Deischer: bye Dao
Maxine Walden: bye Dao
Eden Haiku: Bye Dao :)
Pema Pera: bye Dao!
Eliza Madrigal: Sharon I think I relate... there is still a switching back and forth from logical to illogical...
Eliza Madrigal: which can be seen perhaps
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, seen
Bleu Oleander: in a recent article: "in the context of discovery, we get ideas, mo matter how ..... in the context of justification we assemble objective evidence to determine wheather ideas are correct .... on this picture, standards of rationality apply only to the context of justification not to the context of discovery"
Eliza Madrigal: speaking/expressing from 'this place' or 'that place'
Pema Pera: yes, that's where for me the notion of a "working hypothesis" comes in, Sharon: not believing or disbelieving but just tasting, holding in the palm of your hand
Pema Pera: yes, Bleu, very nice!!
Pema Pera: I sometimes use the image of a stopwatch
Pema Pera: a race, in long-distance running, is determined using a stopwatch to declare the winner
Pema Pera: but running is not primarily about watches
Pema Pera: and exploration, whether in science or philosophy or daily life, is not primarily about logic
Liza Deischer: quite true

Bleu Oleander: article: http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...ination&st=cse

Pema Pera reading the header of Bleu's article: The Stone is a forum for contemporary philosophers on issues both timely and timeless.

Eliza Madrigal: ohh yes... this morning heard an interview, a man with alsheimers who understands that he will lose more and more of memory... he expressed that he had to move 'into his heart' and that he just didn't know life didn't take place in the head before... in memory, etc.
Pema Pera: (promising! even on timeless issues :-)
Bleu Oleander: very good new forum
Pema Pera: wow, Eliza, that's a very direct kind of exploration, willy-nilly . . .
SophiaSharon Larnia is listening so hard needs to nibble on crackers to ground her :)
Maxine Walden: agree, bleu, have been following that forum
Maxine Walden: we all are nibbling, SSL
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Eliza Madrigal: it was a very sad interview of course, however one had the sensethat he had found treasures when losing memories

Eden Haiku: Love the beiginning of the article. Thank Bleu: "Imagine being a slave in ancient Rome. Now remember being one. The second task, unlike the first, is crazy." Will read further :))

Eliza Madrigal: *he had
Bleu Oleander: hard to focus this early :) so nibbling too Sharon
Pema Pera still focusing, though it's moving toward midnight here :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, wonderful quote
nio Artful: uncosiouness is the result of fear in an uncertain enviroment if there is no FAITH and HOPE ....WE HAVE TO ELLIMINATE AS DEFFENCE OUR CONSIOUSNES not to pain .After when we are not awake spiritualy actualy dont EXIST...we do not feel AWE because we do not feel the reality because we are not there
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Lheonardo
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Lheonardo
Lheonardo Oddson: hi all..
Pema Pera: hi Leo!
nio Artful: a popular greek song says ....i do not exist even i am here
Liza Deischer: hi Leo
Eliza Madrigal: I'll give you a note about the group Leo, welcome
SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome to sl Lheonardo
Lheonardo Oddson: yes....sorry for the intrusion
Liza Deischer: or the writer was enlightened or had a very low esteem :)
Pema Pera: yes, nio, that's the hiding we talked about last week
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all Leo
Pema Pera: we're about to wrap up our hour
Pema Pera: but of course anyone is free to stay on
Pema Pera: into the regular Play as Being session
Eliza Madrigal is continually thinking of meister eckhart's quote, whle sitting next to Bleu...
nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
nio Artful: should be here more often them i seem to be out of theme
nio Artful: them =then
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at nie 'please do' :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nio*'

Eliza Madrigal: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love."

SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh
Bleu Oleander: nice quote Eliza
Pema Pera: this may help, nio: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time

nio Artful: i agree god bless you
Yakuzza Lethecus sneaks to dinner
Eden Haiku: clapping at Meister Eckart
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ya
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yakuzza
Bleu Oleander: bye Yaku
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, everyone should feel free to stay if they like :) i'll run to put on tea :)
Eden Haiku: Bye Yaku!
Susan Aloix: bye yaku

=====

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi again Yakuzza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi SHaron :), Ya
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza,pema
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
--BELL--
Pema Pera: My listener just said "no longer recording" . . . .
Pema Pera: did the recorder start?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, I started it
SophiaSharon Larnia: it shows recording on my screen
Pema Pera: hmmm, I may then "not be seen" in the log :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bleu, Bruce, Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, maybe that is from last night
Pema Pera: let me go out and in again, to make sure
Maxine Walden: hi, everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: shall I restart ?
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Eliza Madrigal: HI BLeu and Maxine :)
Pema Pera: no, it showed after the other sentences
Pema Pera: no
Eliza Madrigal: Hm
Pema Pera: I will go out and in, just a sec
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, I love sitting next to you
Eliza Madrigal: 'we share a love for this painting ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) yes! I loved it also Bleu
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce,max,bleu
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bleu Oleander: ty Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, afternoon, evening everyone!
SophiaSharon Larnia: better, Pema?
Pema Pera: (hmm, same message, let's see what it will mean -- odd, didn't happen before)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Nio :)
nio Artful: hello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Eden
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eden, hi nio, hi Liza
Maxine Walden: (reading the reports for a secon...)
Eliza Madrigal: Nio, you've been to PaB before I remember. Have you been to time session specifically?
Eden Haiku: Good morning :)
Maxine Walden: second
nio Artful: hi to all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Liza :)
Liza Deischer: hi everyone :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Liza
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Fefonz
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Fef
Fefonz Quan: Hi all Timers :)
Pema Pera: hi Fef (and everybody)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hil liza/fef
Pema Pera: would somebody like to volunteer . .
Pema Pera: thank you ELiza :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Dao
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: yw, np, etc :) Hi Dao :)
Dao Yheng: Hi SophiaSharon (sneaking in)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi dao :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Dao
Liza Deischer: hi Fonz, Dao
Dao Yheng: Hi Yaku and Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: :)