2009.12.01 13:00 - Ox-Herding

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

   Yakuzza Lethecus: so, now the wave of visitors should start :)
    Mickorod Renard: maybe,,although I have found this particular

session has become quieter
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stims session yesterday was really full
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 17 ppl
    Mickorod Renard: was it?
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Mickorod Renard: I must read the logs more often
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t find the time for reading the chatlogs
    Mickorod Renard: I do not find the time to come on as much as I did before
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i still should read more in general
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i even tried to convert eos book into an audio book with mixed success :)
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Mickorod Renard: that would have been very clever
    Mickorod Renard: so did you try and do the voice over yourself Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no no, text to speech software
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,amazing
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt know it existed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: such software exists from the beginning of my computer experience with my amiga and workbench :)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but the quality was always below all usefullness
    Zon Quar: the pronunciation is quite difficult to crasp though
    Yakuzza Lethecus: until the last couple of years
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s still scary and buddist names pronounced by the engines are really funny
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I know it had been used ,,like for eg with ste[hen hawkins etc
   Zon Quar: lots of audio books on inet too
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I must get into some audio books
    Zon Quar: i usually read those when running or walking
    Mickorod Renard: since I have changed all my lamp bulbs for energy efficient ones I find it hard to read the words now
    Qt Core: if it wasn't a conscious choice going green should not inpact (so) much your habits, mick
    Mickorod Renard: I have just started reading a silly boys type of book,,just to give my brain a bit of a rest
    Qt Core: as in ok green bulbs but same light power
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello aubergine
    Wol Euler: sounds interesting, mick. what is it?
    Zon Quar: what is silly boys type of book..lol
    Mickorod Renard: yehh,,I will go blind in the name of environmental friendliness
    Mickorod Renard: are you familiar with what we do here Aubergine?
    Aubergine Mint: yes, sort of
    Wol Euler: shes been to a few sessions alredy, mick :)
    Qt Core: sometimes i ask that myself, mick ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: ok, I can give you a notecard
    Aubergine Mint: I have one
    Mickorod Renard: yes? ok thanks Wol
    Aubergine Mint: thanks
    Mickorod Renard: great
    Wol Euler: yw
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I do too Qt
    Zon Quar: omg..i htought u knew what u were doing
    Mickorod Renard: have we had any more news on the retreat in malta?
    Wol Euler: that's the great big dirty secret of life, Zon: we are all

making it up as we go along
    Mickorod Renard: Zon,,this is exploration,,
        Zon Quar: lol..good im at the right plce then
    Mickorod Renard: we wont know until we find it
    Zon Quar: and then we will find we were looking for that what we

already had
    Wol Euler: often, yes, like Dorothy.
    Qt Core: that is if we recognize It wjen we find It...
    Mickorod Renard: yes, exactly,,but it was burried under lifes

complications
    Zon Quar: and we like digging
    Mickorod Renard: yeh,,but maybe the 9 seconds is like

comming up for air
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps we should forget the digging and just

stay in the air?
    Zon Quar: hm..could be boring
    Qt Core: isn't the opposite mick
    Mickorod Renard: in some respects this reminds me of that

issue Stim brought up once in Wok
    Mickorod Renard: that we are busy going,,or trying to get to
    Mickorod Renard: without appreciating now
    Zon Quar: we need to dig and breath at the same time
    Mickorod Renard: I keep saying to myself things like,,when I

have done this,,or when I have that,,I can move on
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: putting off living.
    Mickorod Renard: but miss the actual now,,and its good points
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Wol Euler: it's a feeling like "you haven't earned this yet"
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I always put off having children,,thought I

needed to save up more
    Mickorod Renard: but in reality, that was a silly thought
    Wol Euler nods. Though the poor manage it quite well

somehow.
    Mickorod Renard: yes, exactly
    Zon Quar: and stay poor...
    Mickorod Renard: well,, I wonder sometimes about the

definition of poor
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes we are less well off with money

than we would be with apreciating life
    Zon Quar: true
    Mickorod Renard: to many having a family is more valuable,,not

for everyone mind
    Wol Euler: "Money is the husk of many things but not the

kernel. It brings you food, but not appetite; medicine, but not

health; acquaintance, but not friends; servants, but not loyalty;

days of joy, but not peace or happiness."
    Mickorod Renard: that was nice Wol#
    Zon Quar: anyway..if i need to suffer..i rathere suffer with money

than without it
    Wol Euler smiles. I found that recently, liked it and saved it.
    Qt Core: i had many discussion with people asking me why i

don't go searching for bigger paycheck
    Mickorod Renard: had to read it again,,lovely reminder
    Wol Euler: what do you tell them?
    Qt Core: that at my point i would have to do the big step, go

from doing to managing, probably, i don't want and i would dislike

it too
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, that is worth knowing.
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Qt Core: so less, not even less, just the same money but better

life
    Mickorod Renard: horses for courses I say
    Qt Core: and i hardly contest the rule one knows how to do

wuold surely know how to manage the ones that do
    Mickorod Renard: I think its good you stick to your guns Qt
    --BELL--
    Qt Core: i can't even manage myself ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: I stood in the garded in rl the other

day,,dropped as much thought as posible,,and became swamped

with a feeling of,,being alone with my surroundings,,it was wierd
    Mickorod Renard: garden*
    Wol Euler: was it a good wierd or a bad wierd?
    Mickorod Renard: indifferent,,;)
    Mickorod Renard: bit of both
    Wol Euler: were you comfortable with that feeling?
    Mickorod Renard: I dont think I was,,it felt alien..also,,I felt

detached and yet as one in material make up
    Zon Quar: a transition expereince
    Mickorod Renard: maybe someone spiked my drink
    Mickorod Renard: I think it was sometimg like a transition

experience
    Aubergine Mint: what is a transition experience?
    Zon Quar: go deeper in aloneness
    Mickorod Renard: to me,,anyway,,it felt like all my atoms were

in the same consistancy as everything else
    Zon Quar: yes..alone..all one
    Wol Euler points to Aubergine's question. Could someone

answer please? I don't know either.
    Calvino Rabeni: ONE OF THE IN-BETWEEN PLACES IN

EXPERIENCE?
    Calvino Rabeni: oops, caps lock :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am unsure
    Zon Quar: when u turn form ur senses inwards
    Mickorod Renard: but I felt some sort of transition in nature of

my presence
    Mickorod Renard: thought it was spooky
    Zon Quar: there is a transition of consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: how did it end? Did it linger past the moment?
    Wol Euler: ty, zon
    Mickorod Renard: it did,,I needed to snap out of it conciously
    Mickorod Renard: maybe I am just going crazy
    Zon Quar: lol..no
    Mickorod Renard: but wondered if its part of that connection we

may be looking for
    Zon Quar: i think so..u know the zen saying...
    Zon Quar: whan i started my hourney
    Zon Quar: journey montains were mountains
    Zon Quar: then..mountains were not mountains anymore
    Zon Quar: after enlightemnet
    Zon Quar: mountains were mountains again
    Mickorod Renard: I see
    Mickorod Renard: has anyone else felt these things?
    Wol Euler: I think so, yes.
    Zon Quar: all kinds of funny things..lol
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: but that makes great sense Zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Zon, you know the ox-herding pictures?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lovely illustration of your point.
    Zon Quar: yes 10 bulls
    Mickorod Renard: can that be found on net Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni:

http://www.google.com/search?q=ox+herding+pictures
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: After enlightenment - back to the marketplace

with people
    Calvino Rabeni: No escape :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In service, though, I think
    Mickorod Renard: I may have to look at that later
    Zon Quar: i lkie the 10th picture
    Zon Quar: where the searcher returns drunk and celebrating
    Zon Quar: to teh market palce
    Calvino Rabeni: Barefooted and naked of breast, I mingle with

the people of the world. My clothes are ragged and dust-laden,

and I am ever blissful. I use no magic to extend my life; Now,

before me, the dead trees become alive.
    Calvino Rabeni: -- That from the text of the 10th picture
    Mickorod Renard: sorry, I missed Yaku leaving
    Zon Quar: yes..monastry is not the end point
    Calvino Rabeni: You might say "magic" refers also to

"technique" - like, the things we do to practice.
    Mickorod Renard: there must be some point where a leap of

faith is needed?
    Calvino Rabeni: I can relate to that
    Zon Quar: yes..trust in life
    Zon Quar: and there we go.....
    Mickorod Renard: yes..;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking of many tiny "leaps", not

something dramatic
    Mickorod Renard: I am either held back by my doubts,,or saved

from disaster by my caution
    Zon Quar: i know the feeling
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Calvino Rabeni: So do I. Knowing the difference seems like

where the leap is.
    Mickorod Renard: yes..grin
    Mickorod Renard: as a kid I read superman,,and I often would

climb up on the roodf and dare myself too leap
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Zon Quar: trust doesnt mean blind belief or foolhardiness..lol
    Wol Euler: perhaps your caution is a good thing.
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: in that case yes
    Mickorod Renard: but also I am a risk taker when challenged
    Zon Quar: calculated risks r good
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: There are different ways of risk taking. I take

them - kind of like to - but it is calculated
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Like riding a motorcycle fast on a mountain

road
    Mickorod Renard: hi widget
    Widget Whiteberry walks in quietly ...
    Mickorod Renard: hey,,are u a biker too Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: I would trust my body, but not do it going into a

blind curve
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, recreational
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Calvino Rabeni: I rarely scrape the pegs
    Zon Quar: ah..i want to be
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen and motorcycle. :)
    Wol Euler: hello widget
    Calvino Rabeni: Hadn't noticed the bell - no sound
    Widget Whiteberry: Hello Wol
    Mickorod Renard: sports bike then Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and dual sport
    Zon Quar: when u drive fast..u r concentrated..its kind of

meditation..u r here and now
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, I like that
    Mickorod Renard: I find biking is the closest thing to taking my

head off
    Alfred Kelberry: hey, widget :)
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully not literally :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Wol Euler: wow, you and Widget must be cousins.
    Mickorod Renard: yea,Alf
    Zon Quar: hi alf
    Alfred Kelberry: i know her from the metanomics group
    Widget Whiteberry: the extended Berry clan?
    Wol Euler: :)
     Alfred Kelberry: and we both actually attended the previous

meeting on social engineering :)
    Wol Euler: aah
    Widget Whiteberry: for which I was also late
    Mickorod Renard: bye folks,,nice chatting
    Widget Whiteberry: seem to be an hr off today
    Alfred Kelberry: *and* we both wear scarfs :)
    Widget Whiteberry: so that proves it
    Alfred Kelberry: hey, you cut your hair, wol? :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: often
    Wol Euler: one of thte joys of SL
    Alfred Kelberry: true
    Calvino Rabeni: You're tempting me, Wol
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: go for it. Make a collection.
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreads, perhaps.
    Qt Core: you have a little scaring nikita like outfit Wol
    Wol Euler: I have several hundred but there are only a

half-dozen that I actually wear.
    Widget Whiteberry: I must go
    Widget Whiteberry: that kind of day
    Widget Whiteberry: bye all
    Wol Euler: bye widget, it was brief but sweet
    Qt Core: bye widget
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, right! and i was wondering what is it so

familiar :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Qt Core: the glasses are the key point
    Wol Euler: one of my favourites
    Wol Euler: the glasses are wonderful, yes. scripted, colour and

darkness change
    Qt Core: photocromatic ?
    Alfred Kelberry: do you also have a gun hidden... somewhere?

:)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: yes, I do actually.
    Wol Euler grins
    Alfred Kelberry: uh oh
    Qt Core: ok, but Alfred, she is way more dangerpus with a

pencil ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: "dangerpus" :)
    Wol Euler purrs dangerously
    Alfred Kelberry giggles
    Calvino Rabeni: Nikita's journey was like the 10 bulls story
    Alfred Kelberry: what's this cultivator group? i've seen several

pab members wearing it.
    Wol Euler: it's actually a role in the pab group, alf
    Alfred Kelberry: ah.. someone important?
    Wol Euler shrugs. Define important. We are all very important.
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps more roles could be added to that

group - for purposes of avatar expression
    Calvino Rabeni: It only has 2.
    Qt Core: yeah, i'm thinking about the title of an italian song...

"confused and happy" ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Could be a role.
    Calvino Rabeni: Ir "dangerously eclectic"
    Wol Euler: that's good, I'll suggest that. There are seven roles

already, actually.
    Calvino Rabeni: I missed it I guess
    --BELL--
    Wol Euler: though some are quite specific. None of us will ever

qualify as "owner", for example
    Qt Core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ddi_wQteIg
    Alfred Kelberry: sfw? :)
    Wol Euler: music
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, the song!
    Qt Core: the song i mentioned before,
    Qt Core: "confusa e felice" ([female[ confounded and happy)
    Qt Core: confused
    Wol Euler: that would be a great group title, you're right.
    Qt Core: the singer main characteristic is her strange breathing

pattern
    Alfred Kelberry: like what?
    Calvino Rabeni: I am getting a lot of neurons dedicated to

google/youtube/wiki.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Should I be concerned :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And now SL
    Qt Core: she breaths when one may not expect it (but maybe

you have to speak italian to notice that)
    Wol Euler: perhaps, yes, we wouldn't necessarily notice what

to you is an odd speech rhythm
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, yes, can not tell by the video
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe a musician could explain it better
    Calvino Rabeni: Sitting in group, telling stories - it is an age-old

thing to do - but now we have the world too, courtesy of http://
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, right. but then you probably free some too,

no?
    Wol Euler: we can hear everyone's stories. And htey can hear

ours too.
    Wol Euler: for certain values of "everyone"
    Qt Core: but that make hard, very hard to get the good ones
    Calvino Rabeni: Mystery will find a way to gets its due.
    Qt Core: and/or the relevant ones
    Wol Euler: I disagree, Qt. It perhaps makes it difficult to find

*all* the good ones, but it works very well at finding *some* very

good ones.
    Wol Euler: Like the way we all found our way here.
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, social bookmarking does a good job so far :)
    Wol Euler: or the way bloggers recommend each other, chains

of bookmarking (nods to Alf)
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyone here read Piet's article on limits?
    Qt Core: i sometimes love, sometimes hate the omniscience

the web gives you
    Wol Euler: not yet, cal, where is it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I am thinking same, Qt
    Qt Core: as sometimes it just give you the knowledge about

how much of it you are missing
    Calvino Rabeni: (will look for link)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: actually bookstores do that for me too, qt. "so many

books, so little time"
    Qt Core: well, my own books too ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: what i like about the net is that it fosters an

open society
    Calvino Rabeni: Much of the internet has an implicit

metaphysics oftranscendance and frictionless
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: WHich is a bit one-sided
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, a matter of perspective :)
    Qt Core: when in paranoid mode i wonder if it is real or just

what They want us to believe ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni:

http://www.ids.ias.edu/~piet/publ/abisko/ab.html
    Wol Euler: the buddhists would say that that has always been

true, qt.
    Wol Euler: ty, calvino
    Qt Core: but i can't be paranoid for too much time as i end up

thinking that id the world is really that bad i prefer not to know
    Calvino Rabeni: "Freedom from identification is something

extremely paradoxical"
    Alfred Kelberry: wol, i'll remember that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: (from the above link)
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm
    Qt Core: as you end up identified as the free one ?
    Alfred Kelberry: qt, "confused and happy" seems to fit you

nicely :)
    Qt Core: i'm usually not confused, it is just my litle friend the

devil's advocate that make me seems so ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: An overidentification with freedom - the yang

pole of a dynamic process
    Qt Core: sadly rl calls, have to go
    Wol Euler: are you sure it does?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, i shouls go too
    Wol Euler: bye qt, bye alf, take care.
    Qt Core: bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Alfred Kelberry: nice, i really enjoy pab meets :)
    Wol Euler: good.
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, didn't know you're an artist :)
    Wol Euler: I need to do some geeking on the listener script, so

I'm going to stop it now.