2009.12.01 19:00 - You Dreaming, Being Dreaming

 

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Foxtree

Foxtree Gorbunov: hi

Foxtree Gorbunov: how is going Eos?

Eos Amaterasu: Pretty well...

Foxtree Gorbunov: good

Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being before?

Foxtree Gorbunov: no...

Foxtree Gorbunov: first time

Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard

Foxtree Gorbunov: cool

Eos Amaterasu: we meet here to contemplate & discuss & approach the nature of reality.

Foxtree Gorbunov: so I was told

Eos Amaterasu: The chat conversation here is logged (recorded): is that all right?

Eos Amaterasu: It appears on a wiki, http://playasbeing.wik.is/

Foxtree Gorbunov: I have no worrys

Eos Amaterasu: Here every 15 minutes we take a 90 second break

Eos Amaterasu: & just observe

Foxtree Gorbunov: I can observe some what well

Eos Amaterasu: There's such a break coming up on the hour, so we can try that

Eden Haiku: HI Eos! Hello Foxtree.

Foxtree Gorbunov: I am a joker how ever

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eden!

Foxtree Gorbunov: Hi Eden

Eos Amaterasu: Foxtree is about to try his first 90 secs :-)

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: maybe the joke is that there was no ending bell :-)

Eos Amaterasu: heh heh

Foxtree Gorbunov: so did we start?

Eos Amaterasu: How was that, fox?

Foxtree Gorbunov: good

Eden Haiku: Yes, I was starting to wonder...

Foxtree Gorbunov: now we talk?

Eos Amaterasu: The bells at the beginning of a session are different....

Foxtree Gorbunov: oh

Eden Haiku: This 90 seconds seemed like 3 or 4 minutes?

Eos Amaterasu: Yes, we can talk.... what happened during the 90 secs?

Foxtree Gorbunov: nothing....I clear my mind

Eos Amaterasu: I had all kinds of energies of preoccupation

Eos Amaterasu: but as I noticed those and relaxed

Eos Amaterasu: more of the world became visible and audible

Eden Haiku: My day came back to me by waves.

Foxtree Gorbunov: but what could you do about it

Foxtree Gorbunov: what can be done with it?

Foxtree Gorbunov: the past is past

Eden Haiku: It was like my mine clearing itself I guess..

Eden Haiku: *mind

Eos Amaterasu: nice pun

Foxtree Gorbunov: cool

Foxtree Gorbunov: can you clean up the past?

Eden Haiku: The deep mine of my mind...

Eos Amaterasu: you can't clean up the past

Eos Amaterasu: even the present is too late

Foxtree Gorbunov: why not?

Eos Amaterasu: when things come up they've already come up

Foxtree Gorbunov: if it is all in the minds eye?

Eos Amaterasu: it's only at that point you can do something about it, most notably by not doing

Eos Amaterasu: by not furthering the compulsivie repetition

Foxtree Gorbunov: then past and future are only in the maind

Eos Amaterasu: what is the mind's eye?

Eden Haiku: It felt like some rewinding, very mechanical. Fast images: a hand holding an handle in the subway, faces, excellent meal I had in a new restaurant...

Eos Amaterasu: or, whose is the mind's eye?

Foxtree Gorbunov: I have a lost fiend

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Eden Haiku: Bye!

Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes my "camera" seems to get attached to another avatar

Eos Amaterasu: like my consciousness gets hijacked by another body :-)

Eden Haiku: How so?

Eos Amaterasu: When foxtree left the pavilion my viewpoint "followed" him out....

Eden Haiku: Look a lion!!!

Eos Amaterasu: It's a 3D lion!

Eos Amaterasu: Welcome, 3D

Threedee Shepherd: Good evening fellow PaBers

Eden Haiku: Hello Threedee!

Eos Amaterasu: 3D is a long-time PaBer....

Eos Amaterasu: we are not speciest here

Threedee Shepherd: glad to hear it

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino

Eden Haiku: Speciest... LOL

Eden Haiku: Roaring!!

Threedee Shepherd: hi calvino

Calvino Rabeni: Hello all.

Eden Haiku: HI Calvino.

Eos Amaterasu: How does a lion experience the 90 secs?

Threedee Shepherd: I am unsure the outfit being worn has very much to do with it.

Eos Amaterasu: Would someone like to suggest an approach to the upcoming 90 secs?

Calvino Rabeni: Eden, have you got setup inside your virtual house?

Eden Haiku: Maybe boundaries.

Eden Haiku: That could be a good subject for the 90 secs yes?

Calvino Rabeni: How about, "where am I?"

Calvino Rabeni: Sure

Threedee Shepherd: Although, by now my persona is deeply entangled with this lion avatar , so it probably does matter in ways I do not realize explicitly

Eos Amaterasu: HI Paradise

Eden Haiku: Hi Paradise.

Paradise Tennant: good evening :) everyone

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Paradise

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: Any observations / field reports / roars / whimpers?

Threedee Shepherd: calmness

Eden Haiku: Nervousness

Paradise Tennant: blinking

Paradise Tennant: :)

Eos Amaterasu: CAn you say more about calmness, 3D?

Threedee Shepherd: I am in a latter stage of life, comfortable retirement. It is calm in a way that the pressures of daily life did not previously allow

Eos Amaterasu: Ah.... I envy you :-)

Eos Amaterasu: a lion surveying the plains, but no particular need to leap?

Threedee Shepherd: So would I have. I wonder why I could not discover this way of being 35 years ago ;D

Eden Haiku: I enjoyed Eos remark about us not being speciest here. I saw Twilight 2 today, and the whole theater was laughing at some silliness in the script. There is a lot of talk about being «speciest» or not, with vampires and werewolfs...

Threedee Shepherd: exactly

Eos Amaterasu: So how would one approach, in pre-retirement, even 30 years before retirement, that kind of state of mind?

Eden Haiku: Here, we meet regularly with elephants, bunnies , foxes and the like. We are really not speciest. I enjoy the neologism...

Eos Amaterasu: We are also not "life-ist".... do both SL and RL and DL

Eden Haiku: DL?

Eos Amaterasu: Dream Life

Eden Haiku: Nice ;-)

Eos Amaterasu: (where we also have avatars :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Any reports from DL?

Threedee Shepherd: I wonder if it is possible. Earlier I had ambition for career, family, security. I am not sure I would have achieved without ambition, and I think now that ambition blocks the calmness. ?Though perhaps not.

Eden Haiku: My friend had a dream about this little house here in the village, it is a pub I think? He saw it on my screen and had a dream about it!

Eos Amaterasu: !

Calvino Rabeni: Nice crossover.

Paradise Tennant: hmm interesting when the virtual and real life world merge in dreams

Paradise Tennant: kind of makes you realize it is all dreams :)

Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in waking.

Eos Amaterasu: About a month ago I had my first merged SL / RL dream

Eden Haiku: Oh!

Eden Haiku: Tell is about it Eos.

Eos Amaterasu: SL characters as well as RL characters (RL is a funny term to use)

Eos Amaterasu: The dream involved two avatars I know in SL, one of whom I also know in RL

Eos Amaterasu: seemed no big deal at the time :-)

Eos Amaterasu: I am waiting for reports of people doing PaB in their dreams, lucidly or not.

Paradise Tennant: ;)

Eden Haiku: ;-) How interesting!

Eos Amaterasu wonders if you can do PaB non-lucidly (wonders if you can do PaB lucidly)

Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure how different a dream is from PaB

Eos Amaterasu: Let's investigate that :-)

--BELL--

Threedee Shepherd: In a dream I watch what "floats by" my awareness without apparently controlling it. Sounds alot like an ideal PaB experience

Paradise Tennant: hmm sometimes in a dream ..there is the sense you can relax and control it .. it is your dream .. I guess the influence of lucidity ?

Eos Amaterasu: So was this 90 secs PaB like a dream?

Eos Amaterasu: Is what I am experiencing right now like a dream?

Eden Haiku: It reminded me my first sessions here.

Threedee Shepherd: dreams involve "impossible" conjunctions in a way awake awareness does not.

Eden Haiku: I'm still grieving my mother who died a year and a half ago. The fisrt times I came here, about a month ago, I had the feeling she was sitting amongst us. Like in a dream.

Threedee Shepherd nods

Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, interesting crossover of realms

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Maitreya

Eden Haiku: I read the chat logs of the day she died. In one of them, a particpant narrates a dream in which he was The Reaper !

maitreya Core: hello

Eden Haiku: Hello Maitreya.

Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to PaB before, Maitreya?

maitreya Core: hello nice to meet you

maitreya Core: no

Eos Amaterasu: We discuss and explore the nature of reality, through brief attention suspensions

Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard

maitreya Core: hope im not disturbing you

Eos Amaterasu: Chats here are logged (recorded), and put up on our wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/

Eos Amaterasu: Is that all right with you?

maitreya Core: do i have a choice ?

Eden Haiku: No, not at all. You are very welcome!

Eden Haiku: *about disturbing...

Eos Amaterasu: Well, the logging takes place automatically

maitreya Core: ok

Eos Amaterasu: I'm the "guardian" of this session, and can edit the log afterwards

maitreya Core: im happy

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Eden Haiku: You have a very inspiring name!

maitreya Core: why does it inspire you ?

Paradise Tennant: ;)

Threedee Shepherd: To come back to our toppic area, how do you think the way this session is happening would be different if it were like a dream?

Eden Haiku: Well, it reminds me the promise of the Kalachakra of 2006 in Samavarthi, India. We were told that we were sure to meet the next Buddha in a future life. I did.nt expect it to be so soon ;-)

maitreya Core: yes

Eden Haiku: It would be more irrational I guess, though it can be sometimes, quite irrational too...

Eos Amaterasu: Usually in dreams there's pretty total immersion in the reality of the dream, so to speak.... not much distance, observation

Eos Amaterasu: There's more such awareness in lucid dreaming

Eos Amaterasu: Here we drop into the 90 secs every 15 minutes

Eos Amaterasu: But those 90 secs are themselves within the 15 mins which is itself within a greater 9 / 90 / 9 trillion secs

Eos Amaterasu: that's the dreamlike quality, in a way

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: alas I have a very early morning so I will wish you all a good night and thank you for as always interesting discussion :)

Eos Amaterasu: Bye paradise

Eden Haiku: Good nite Paradise!

Threedee Shepherd: bye

Calvino Rabeni: Could it be, Eos, that we are not really "lucid" in th waking state?

Eden Haiku: The lion is taking a bath!

Eos Amaterasu: must be hot....

Threedee Shepherd: you are just dreaming that

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Eos Amaterasu: outrageous, illogical things are happening - I must be dreaming!

Eden Haiku: Ah ah!

Eos Amaterasu: Most of the time I suspect we are not terribly lucid in the waking state

Eos Amaterasu: or in the dreaming state

Eden Haiku: Dreambird dragon!

Eos Amaterasu: beautiful

Eden Haiku: You have beautiful avatars Threedee!

Threedee Shepherd: grendel's children shop

Eden Haiku: Vanished into thin air!

Eden Haiku: Wow!

Eos Amaterasu: 3D is putting on quite a show!

Eden Haiku: I'm amazed!

Threedee Shepherd: did anything happen while I was away?

Eos Amaterasu: you'll neve believe us!

Eos Amaterasu: never

Threedee Shepherd: hehehe

Eden Haiku: Hello Lion! No, nothing special why do you ask ;-)

Threedee Shepherd: just daydreaming I guess

Eos Amaterasu: there were several sudden presences of appearance :-)

Calvino Rabeni: I was daydreaming too - seafood, think. :)

Eos Amaterasu: appreciated them greatly

maitreya Core: thank you

Threedee Shepherd: bye

Eos Amaterasu: Ciao maitreya

Eos Amaterasu: see you in the future :-)

maitreya Core: who's leavimg ?

maitreya Core: lol im only kidding

maitreya Core: goodbye

Eden Haiku: Bye!

Eos Amaterasu: So Eden, this circle could somehow encompass the presence of your mother?!?

Eden Haiku: Encompass..maybe not. But she seemed like an avatar to me, as I dreamed about her wearing a sari (which was really strange).

Eden Haiku: And I felt she was sitting with us, in the first days here,

Eden Haiku: Pema Pera: So in PaB, our attitude is to play, and specifically to play as if "all is Being" already, before we even try in any way to see that -- and our activity is to stop, to drop activities, frequently, in a gentle way, to ease into this powerful Nothing

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: this powerful Nothing

Eden Haiku: I read that on the chat log about the Prehistory of PaB. I find that quote very interesting.

Calvino Rabeni: Eos, you do lucid dreaming?

Eos Amaterasu: I have done lucid dreaming

Eos Amaterasu: (is this a dream ? :-)

Eos Amaterasu: (reality testing...)

Eden Haiku: Are you lucid ;-)

Threedee Shepherd: I have enjoyed the hour together, friends, and need to go. goodnight ^.^

Eden Haiku: Goodnite 3D, nice to meet you!

Eos Amaterasu: Goodnight Threedee.... thanks for manifesting your true selves :-)

Threedee Shepherd chuckles

Calvino Rabeni: See you again, 3d

Calvino Rabeni: I am questioning it, considering your last question

Eos Amaterasu: ?

Calvino Rabeni: What I'm thinking, is that the state of "lucidity" in a lucid dream is not the same lucidity of waking consciousness. Therefore we could be "awake" and not have it.

Eos Amaterasu: a lot of our so-called waking life is spent filtting in and out of dream states, fixations, getting caught up in things

Eos Amaterasu: there can be various degrees of lucidity in the dream state

Eos Amaterasu: likewise in the waking state

Eos Amaterasu: and in either state there seems to be a background "dreamer", or lucidity, which is not "my" lucidity

Calvino Rabeni: right, so in that sense, if the dreamer is not awake during the waking state, one is not lucid

Calvino Rabeni: Usually, waking from a dream, it is "over".

Calvino Rabeni: Meaning a loss of connection with the dreamer

Eos Amaterasu: Yes. But you can wake "in" the dream

Eos Amaterasu: and be aware that you are dreaming while still allowing the dream world/interactions to continue

Calvino Rabeni: RIght, but perhaps the lucidity can overlap both states of consciousness

Eos Amaterasu: yes

Eos Amaterasu: some people can go from waking to dreaming while not losing awareness (that's OBE style of lucid dreaming)

Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around

Eos Amaterasu: yes

Eden Haiku: Sorry, I have to go. See you!

Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eden,

Eos Amaterasu: Robert Waggoner has explored this quite subtly

Eos Amaterasu: http://www.amazon.com/Lucid-Dreaming.../dp/193049114X

Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, thanks

Eos Amaterasu: By far the deepest book I've read on LD

Eos Amaterasu: In LD you can learn to control your dream..... somewhat

Eos Amaterasu: Very unexpected things can still happen: you as the lucid one are still not entirely "the dreamer"

Eos Amaterasu: just like the ground awareness in PaB is not entirely "your own"

Calvino Rabeni: I think, if I were to want to explore that realm, I would do it from the awake side of things

Eos Amaterasu: SL is fascinating in providing yet another playground for this kind of exploration

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: But I appreciate that people specialize in investigating the phenomena of LD

Calvino Rabeni: SOmeone told me Maxine does waking dreaming. Have you had conversations about that?

Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I'm surprised at how many people can easily slip into dream states, pretty directly from the waking state.

Eos Amaterasu: or imagistic states

Calvino Rabeni: If it is in the chat logs, I'll look it up

Eos Amaterasu: there's a kind of visual, story-telling level of language that is available to us

Eos Amaterasu: I realized this during the August real life retreat in California

Calvino Rabeni: The stories are an important mode.

Eos Amaterasu: Maybe it was just the particular people there, but I realized that the kind of verbal explanatory exploratory narrative I'm used to is not the only way

Calvino Rabeni: Part of that level also, I think, is the ability to see sentience in "objects".

Eos Amaterasu: PaB, the 90 secs, can be approached, and expressed, in many ways

Calvino Rabeni: Like, relaxing the S / O distinction.

Eos Amaterasu: let things speak

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this is what I meant, good.

Calvino Rabeni: Have to be generous with them and listen

Eos Amaterasu: that may be part of what "the dreamtime" is about, that level of the s /o distinctions forming/reforming where reality is still pliable

Calvino Rabeni: seems that way, yes

Eos Amaterasu: the dreamtime is happening all the time, right now

Eos Amaterasu: sometimes we can access it more

Calvino Rabeni: as in PAB, when being looks back

Calvino Rabeni: I agree

Eos Amaterasu: things are their own poetry :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Rationalists may fear a return to the animistic, demon-haunted world of our ancestors.

Calvino Rabeni: that is a nice way to put it

Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, Calvino, great discussion

Eos Amaterasu: Have to go to bed, speaking of dreaming :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Talk to you later, EOS, sleep well.

Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

Eos Amaterasu: I'm still waiting for the first report of PaB in a dream :-)