2009.12.29 19:00 - Economy of Attention

 

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug!

Eos Amaterasu: ho ho ho

doug Sosa: post christmas cheerio -oh

Eos Amaterasu: how is applied play as being going?

doug Sosa: been getting my first black screen in windows 7 with second life. so i may get knowced out.

doug Sosa: ah, glad you asked. i don't like the "appled" distinction. ruins the whole thing. If economy is not "seen" in normal experience then i don't want to go there, but i think it is.

Eos Amaterasu: seeing things in normal experience is seeing them as they matter to you

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Eos and doug

doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.

doug Sosa: hi cal

Eos Amaterasu: This is great. So let us try that in the 19:15 90 secs coming up

Eos Amaterasu: (if not sooner)

Eos Amaterasu: economy in the 90 secs

Eos Amaterasu: can you say more about that , Doug?

doug Sosa: or notice and then we can discover after if it was economy or no.

Calvino Rabeni: greetings Arch

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch

doug Sosa: for example, since i have a few minutes, we are aware of each other (last night), but we are also aware of the building, as a setting, and that setting exudes a kind of opulence, Hilton hawaii, and has an impact on how we experience each other.

Archmage Atlantis: Hello

doug Sosa: arch, hi.

Eos Amaterasu muses on "Hilton hawaii"....

Eos Amaterasu: I experience this place as very classical

Eos Amaterasu: this is our Delphi

doug Sosa: It speaks of power and opulence.

Archmage Atlantis: This bouncing out of a gay night club while pole dancing is a bit disorienting, one moment

doug Sosa: classical is a "class' differentiator. This with a good education have it.

doug Sosa: too fast, those with a good education have "classical" as a marker of class.

doug Sosa: so in this setting i think we experience that/

Calvino Rabeni: this economic fish, in the economic water, says...keep speaking of this thing called water

Archmage Atlantis: I have a prose/poem called water

doug Sosa: your writing?

Eos Amaterasu: [19:07] doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Yes

Eos Amaterasu: Did economy show up? Was it dropped? What else showed up?

doug Sosa: i looked out in the distance, across the manicured grass, and felt like i was in a country club.

doug Sosa: economy enough?

Eos Amaterasu: full of economic implications

doug Sosa: as present as the cushions we sit on, or the snow..

Eos Amaterasu: such a way of looking at this place never occurred to me, but I can see it now that you mention it

doug Sosa: but hadn't you felt it before at times, yet unnoticed?

Archmage Atlantis: Found it

Archmage Atlantis: WaterShare Friday, December 25, 2009 at 1:01pm | Edit Note | Delete Water It brings life It brings death It is the force on this planet Who are we I ask the water It only brings new birth As the child is born

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Calvino Rabeni: I imagined all the objects made with atoms around me, each made of energy, with little dollar signs and an equation translating energy to money

doug Sosa: hi, must be behind me

Calvino Rabeni: And I felt resistant

Eos Amaterasu: oh yes... I totally agree with the principle of what you're saying... simple perception is already fully value-charged

Eos Amaterasu: lag / overlap / asynch

Archmage Atlantis: Brother, there is no money in true reality

doug Sosa: nor much reality in true money.

doug Sosa: But we live in between.

Archmage Atlantis: Yes we do

Eos Amaterasu: so from a sustainability point of view, what is true wealth?

doug Sosa: Is eating part of true reality?

Archmage Atlantis: Is death a par?

Archmage Atlantis: What of each of us goes on

doug Sosa: par three. born, married, die. Don't do a hole in one.

Archmage Atlantis: For those who have children, the answer seems easy

Eos Amaterasu groks that in fullness

Calvino Rabeni: It's hard not to worship money given that every item in my environment is only there due to an immense economic system

doug Sosa: So the point is economic-like things are experienced directly in normal or 9 sec experience.

Calvino Rabeni: But I have a hard time labeling it as "direct"

Calvino Rabeni: Or assigning it any fundamental status

Archmage Atlantis: Ah, Doug, the fight \goes on .... even if you cannot conclude it

doug Sosa: the feeling of this space, its opulence, i think is direct. If not, what is more direct?

Eos Amaterasu: It's also conditional

Archmage Atlantis: Ideas have true value

Eos Amaterasu: I did not get a feeling of 'opulence' from it

Eos Amaterasu: I did, or do, get a different, or various, feelings from it

doug Sosa: well, my word short cut. the interesting question is what is the experience bing here, not of "it" but the atmosphere, the felt.

Eos Amaterasu: it's full of charge and value

Calvino Rabeni: I like this inquiry, doug, and think it of potential value, but it hasn't hinted of any epiphany

Calvino Rabeni: yet I mean

Archmage Atlantis: I 0nly know what I feel

doug Sosa: There is often made, by meditation folks, a distinction between here and now, and abstract out there.

Calvino Rabeni: still listening

doug Sosa: My point is that things like economy are absolutely immediate, as are the cushions.

Archmage Atlantis: A 19 yo music student once asked me...._how do you know what I experience_

Archmage Atlantis: And I had to say

doug Sosa: and the here and now vs out there distinction is arbitrary and misleading.

Archmage Atlantis: I do not

Eos Amaterasu: if we kept things to that level we wouldn't be taken in by bubbling blizzards of economic b*llsh*t

doug Sosa: yet that bs also is rel, and experienceable, and has consequences. It is in our environment and no diffeent as a stuff than the water in the pond.

Eos Amaterasu: if we could but see it

Eos Amaterasu: in either case

Calvino Rabeni: it can't be seen?

Eos Amaterasu: we get divorced from it

doug Sosa: but we can see it. we see this space and have reactions to it, can feel it is the excrescence of a corporate aesthetic world, an oasis of privelage.

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: This planet may have seen it's last days......or at least with humans at the helm of the ship.....We have made ourselves into dinosaurs, once dominant, now extinct.

doug Sosa: I am surrounded by mountains. But i have learned to see the property lines BECASUE I SEE how people trat them as real.

stevenaia Michinaga: time will tell Arch

Eos Amaterasu is still non-plussed at the idea of here being a Hawaii Hilton

Calvino Rabeni: So they appear in the imagination

Archmage Atlantis: I am with Doug on this, I shall defend our right to be

doug Sosa: I was recently at the Hilton Hawaian Village in honolulu (conference). Much like. but here calmer people.

Calvino Rabeni: A direct experience of imagining the property lines

doug Sosa: I am sorry, dinner is screaming at me... bye for now.

stevenaia Michinaga: bye doug

Archmage Atlantis: I have not children or grandchildren, but the animals, we took responsibility for them

Eos Amaterasu: poof!

Archmage Atlantis: I will do what I can to fulfill that responsibility

Calvino Rabeni: My economic status does not include responsibility for children either

Calvino Rabeni: which translates into lots of free time to do things like SL

Eos Amaterasu: free time is highly valuable :-)

Calvino Rabeni: economically, regarded as a non-renewable resource

stevenaia Michinaga: I often wonder the classifications we put on the indiginous "poor" simply because they don't subscribe or participate in our economic system, yet they have been "sustainable" as a culture for thousands of years w/o money or technology

Archmage Atlantis: A prose/poem on free time.........It begins with "Time is not free"

Archmage Atlantis: "It is limite"

Eos Amaterasu: different ways of thinking/telling the me-in-my-environment story

Eos Amaterasu: economy is about well-being

stevenaia Michinaga: sustainability can be to

stevenaia Michinaga: w/o economy

Archmage Atlantis: My dad worked of the railroads in the US, his pocket watch was the defining thing to that job

Eos Amaterasu: his crystal

Calvino Rabeni: It is a different imagined economy - the one where everything is not a commodity referenced to money as a single measure - economics as a theory is disturbingly totalizing

Archmage Atlantis: As to avoid train crashes, the trains had to sync

Archmage Atlantis: Monetarization, this is only to sync

Archmage Atlantis: Not to rule

Calvino Rabeni: But it ends up ruling

Archmage Atlantis: We have given it a ruling position

Eos Amaterasu: steady-state economics is probably key to sustainability

Eos Amaterasu: but we only have ponzi growth economic theories

stevenaia Michinaga: brb

Calvino Rabeni: money "says" everything is the same, and has no intrinsic value

Archmage Atlantis: No, Cal, people say that.....money says nothinbg

Eos Amaterasu: styles of money implementation have huge impact on society - money is not value neutral

Calvino Rabeni: yes, like guns don't kill people

Calvino Rabeni: but they do

Eos Amaterasu: but that is the meme : "business is business"

Calvino Rabeni: money is a good tool for ignoring many aspects of life

Eos Amaterasu: lives by its own rules

Calvino Rabeni: not value neutral

Archmage Atlantis: Selling ones soul to Mammon, that is an ancient trait of humans

Eos Amaterasu: so how is that happening right now? Selling our attention to distractions?

Archmage Atlantis: Ah, good question Eos

Calvino Rabeni: as you know, attention has been monetarized also

Calvino Rabeni: thus spawning an industry based on controlling peoples attention

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it always has been, did not the emperors and pharoahs demand full attention

Archmage Atlantis: Their way or the highway, sts

Eos Amaterasu: Most of what we attend to is other people, their attention

Eos Amaterasu: and our attention is jumpy, a little psycho even

Eos Amaterasu: it's not different than a personal 90 secs

Eos Amaterasu: but it needs to go global

Calvino Rabeni: say more eos? what needs to go global?

Eos Amaterasu: being able to relax in attention

Eos Amaterasu: as opposed to jumping around being pulled this way and that by it

Calvino Rabeni: something like, being "at choice" with every activity? Or just certain times?

Eos Amaterasu: (maybe a "slow media" movement :-)

Calvino Rabeni: I propose a Media Sabbath.

Calvino Rabeni: No media allowed that day of the week.

Eos Amaterasu: I second that

Eos Amaterasu: We did that for a while at my home

Eos Amaterasu: analog sundays

Eos Amaterasu: no screens

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Eos Amaterasu: zeroth life

Archmage Atlantis: And on the 7th day, God rested

Eos Amaterasu: cause real life is with screens

Calvino Rabeni: Books ok on Analog Sunday?

Eos Amaterasu: yes

Eos Amaterasu: (don't know about kindle)

Calvino Rabeni: Machine games not ok?

Eos Amaterasu: Not okay

Calvino Rabeni: makes sense

Eos Amaterasu: yes, just your senses :-)

Eos Amaterasu: SL helps in appreciating that kind of time-out

Calvino Rabeni: A day to not be programmed

Eos Amaterasu: cause it's a kind of time-out... maybe we get more flexible in seeing / trying /dropping nth-lives

Archmage Atlantis: You 2 are founding new age fundamentalism

Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Arch :)

Eos Amaterasu: world domination :-)

Archmage Atlantis: Teach each to let go, when the need to let go is needed

Calvino Rabeni: A fundamentalism that is only 1 of 7 days is ok by me - actually the definition to me of fundamentalism is it tries to totalize everything in some way

Archmage Atlantis: Allow others to hold, what they need to hold

Calvino Rabeni: everything else is a gesture of balance

Eos Amaterasu: it helps to pull the plug to hear the noise

Archmage Atlantis: Yes

Eos Amaterasu: that's also how the 9 secs or 90 secs works

Calvino Rabeni: A restriction of the freedom to be programmed, is a liberation

Calvino Rabeni: as is any true discipline

Archmage Atlantis: That is why Hillel has rabbi's and not priests

Calvino Rabeni: makes good sens

Calvino Rabeni: a rabbi is more a leader, less a dictator

Calvino Rabeni: more a friend

Archmage Atlantis: rabbi is teacher

Archmage Atlantis: I do not even like that

Calvino Rabeni: a distinctive type of teacher, though

Archmage Atlantis: I prefer "one who shares"

Calvino Rabeni: is good

Calvino Rabeni: I like the dialogue and argument of that tradition, compared to authoritarianism that imposes things

Archmage Atlantis: It is why I had to change a saying that was given to me by one whom I respect

Archmage Atlantis: Learn, Share one's learning, Love yourself, Love others"

Calvino Rabeni: What did you change, Arch?

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Share one's learning.....it was given to me as teach......my mother was a 5th grade teacher......I could only hear that as obey what one is taught.

Calvino Rabeni: ah

Calvino Rabeni: I like the classic saying - If not me, then who? If not now, then when?

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I like that also

Archmage Atlantis: It is a quote

Calvino Rabeni: Hillel I think?

Archmage Atlantis: I believe so, yes

Calvino Rabeni: Having the chat logs is very interesting - it makes it possible to be more objective about opinions I may question

Archmage Atlantis: Another theologian I have found comfort in is Paul Tillich

Calvino Rabeni: What does he bring?

Archmage Atlantis: The courage to be is the courage to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable. - Paul Tillich (1886 - 1965)

Eos Amaterasu: to be unconditionally

Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave.... bye Cal and Arch

Archmage Atlantis: yes, Eos, that is what it says

Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eos

Eos Amaterasu: rich discussion

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, lots there, fertile

Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in fertile ground grow

Calvino Rabeni: Over time, if watered, they do

Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in the desert survive

Calvino Rabeni: And protected from the light of the sun

Calvino Rabeni: darkness is important to a seed

Archmage Atlantis: A friend of mine, who is German, said I am like a saying he knows

Archmage Atlantis: It did not translate well to English

Archmage Atlantis: Still I understood

Archmage Atlantis: It was something like

Archmage Atlantis: "Bad weeds grow tall"

Calvino Rabeni: What did you take the message to be?

Archmage Atlantis: That I am a difficult weed, and I shall always return

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: I figured out that Google is a better way to scan the chat logs than the search engine built into the wiki

Archmage Atlantis: There are many who await me - t\his II I do notunderstand

Archmage Atlantis: Pray for your soul Cal, as you are chosen

Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Arch I will :)

Calvino Rabeni: PaB is pretty inter-religious as it stands

Calvino Rabeni: I would care for an occasional focus

Calvino Rabeni: but not sure how well it would work

Archmage Atlantis: It is a glimpse of enlightenment

Archmage Atlantis: Must go

Calvino Rabeni: Same, see you later Arch

Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_