2009.12.20 13:00 - Openness and dropping

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

I will edit the chatlog as I can, but posting it for our archive now. 

Maxine Walden: hi, Liza
Liza Deischer: hi Maxine
Maxine Walden: how are you, Liza?
Liza Deischer: Im fine
Liza Deischer: a bit tired though
Maxine Walden: oh?
Liza Deischer: and you?
Maxine Walden: fine thanks, perhaps tired as well, with the holidays around and about
Liza Deischer: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Maxine Walden: hi, Yakuzza
Liza Deischer: Hi Yaku, Aubergine
Maxine Walden: hi Aubgerine
Liza Deischer: youve got kids maxine?
Maxine Walden: I have grown step kids...how about you?
Liza Deischer: :0
Liza Deischer: :)
Liza Deischer: but with kids those days always costmore
Liza Deischer: money and energy
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, lots of 'stuff' going on in time and energy
Maxine Walden: Yaku, how are you today? We were just saying we are a bit tired..
Maxine Walden: hi, again Aubergine
Aubergine Mint: hi again, having computer problems
Maxine Walden: hi, Mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am fine, thinking a bit of the 2 days of work to come for me and being suprised that ur also a bit older
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Guys
Yakuzza Lethecus: by the way how old are you maxine with grown step kids :)
Liza Deischer: hi Mick and Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, all
Maxine Walden: hmm, SL or RL age?
Liza Deischer: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: RL i don´t believe you have stepkids in second life :)
Mickorod Renard: its a ladies perogative not to give her age
Liza Deischer: that tells you something
Yakuzza Lethecus: true mick :)
Mickorod Renard: and read maps poorly
Maxine Walden: maybe best to say sometimes I feel like a teenager and sometimes much older...how is that for a kind of dodge?
Mickorod Renard: and be late
Liza Deischer: I actually do read maps very well, thank you :)
Mickorod Renard: my friend always says,,he only feels as old as the woman he feels
Maxine Walden: Liza, we may be being goaded a bit...
Liza Deischer: I know Max
Mickorod Renard: :)
Maxine Walden: maybe we can turn to PaB issues, thoughts, concerns...?
Mickorod Renard: I notice that like a manic depresed person..I imagine..i get moments of great understandding,,followed by times of no understanding
Mickorod Renard: but as time goes on,,I am becoming more clear
Maxine Walden: very common, I think, Mick. ...ah, yes more clear with experience?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Maxine Walden: others find a similar experience as Mick describes?
Mickorod Renard: I am feeling much airier now...and am hoping I acan sustain long periods of a more lieberal seeing mind
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: yes, hope that is so for you Mick. Do you have some thought, Mick or anyone,about why we might feel so unclear at times?
Liza Deischer: hi Lila
Mickorod Renard: Hi Lila
Lila Darkmatter: Hello :)
Mickorod Renard: are u ok Lila,,have you been here before?
Lila Darkmatter: Thank you Mick, yes :)
Mickorod Renard: ahh great
Mickorod Renard: in answer to your question max..I am not sure why
Mickorod Renard: breaking the mould that one finds oneself in takes time
Maxine Walden: yes, so much familiar drawing us back...
Mickorod Renard: peeling off the layers of lenses
Calvino Rabeni: It is an excellent question
Mickorod Renard: I find there are several elements of this too
Liza Deischer: I try to give up hope
Liza Deischer: hi Wol
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Mickorod Renard: being relaxed is good Liza,,but having confidence is good too
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
Lila Darkmatter: Hello Wol
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol
Aubergine Mint: Hi Wol
Aubergine Mint: how are you?
Wol Euler: much better, thanks
Mickorod Renard: are you better?
Liza Deischer: hope is something different than confidence to me
Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa
Maxine Walden: Wol, we are just wondering among other things about the elements that draw us away from the clarity we gain sometimes
Wol Euler: ah
Liza Deischer: welcom back Wol
Mickorod Renard: I think society today has , like a dent in the bed,,formed something that is so easy to roll back into
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: a nice image
Calvino Rabeni: :) metaphor
Calvino Rabeni: And society has buried some treasures
Maxine Walden: interesting image...almost like a gravitational pull
Mickorod Renard: its imposible to change the mattress..
Maxine Walden: buried treasures, Cal?
Mickorod Renard: but we may have to live/sleep on the edge
Calvino Rabeni: yes, you can dig them back up
Mickorod Renard: but the edge may be better for ones posture
Calvino Rabeni: with a little shovel work
Mickorod Renard: he he
Calvino Rabeni: buddha-mind is a buried treasure
Maxine Walden: :)
Liza Deischer: how do you shovel Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: or I might say, that which is symbolized by an infant jesus at this time of year
Calvino Rabeni: Innocence and potential
Calvino Rabeni: Buried under layers of cynicism and mistrust
Mickorod Renard: yea
Wol Euler: I infer that you meant "buried" in the sense of an avalanche, not intentionally?
Calvino Rabeni: and rules and recriminations
Calvino Rabeni: Well, in that metaphor, some people might do things that bury the treasure more
Calvino Rabeni: not just an act of nature
Calvino Rabeni: Or we bury it in ourself
Calvino Rabeni: LIke the psychological theory of ego-defenses
Calvino Rabeni: Trying to protext the treasure inside
Calvino Rabeni: From a world that appears hard
Maxine Walden: For me it feels useful to consider that there are states of mind we all know and at times inhabt which resist change, growth and the new...resort more to 'tradition' with perhaps cynicism for any change
Wol Euler nods.
Maxine Walden: the 'gravitational' pull toward the familiar
--BELL--
Wol Euler: and towards the norm. We are herd animals, we like to be like each other
Calvino Rabeni: Tradition can be a help and a support, as can ritual. I think of it as a distiniction between living intelligence and dead intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: we have some choice about those states of mind
Calvino Rabeni: that you mentioned, max
Calvino Rabeni: somewhat limited choice though
Calvino Rabeni: some are available in the moment, but others through practice
Maxine Walden: agree, Cal, and sometimes more choice than other times, perhaps, depending upon how balanced (or not) we feel
Maxine Walden: or do you have another thought?
Calvino Rabeni: over time, practice can make more choice available
Calvino Rabeni: that is, I believe cultivation works
Mickorod Renard: I do too
Calvino Rabeni: but one is aways poised on the edge of what is possible
Calvino Rabeni: insignts are ephemeral
Calvino Rabeni: If clung to, they turn into something else
Maxine Walden: wondering as we talk if we can think of having a bit of a practice during the next pause...maybe around some aspect of these issues...
Calvino Rabeni: I will take any proposal :)
Liza Deischer: thats what i mean with letting go of hope
Mickorod Renard: I think that is why we sould remind ourselves that PaB is an exploration, as much as anything else
Mickorod Renard: not an indoctrination
Calvino Rabeni: Letting go of the hope for an insight to be permanent - that makes sense
Liza Deischer: yes, exactly
Calvino Rabeni: The risk is, when you change it to make it permanent, it loses is life and is no longer true
Calvino Rabeni: It gets attached to the hope, whereas, in the beginning, it was free
Maxine Walden: (trying to offer some focus for the next pause): wonder if we can try to observe during next pause, what we are aware of being able to let go of and what not, what seems to hang around .
Maxine Walden: Might be a little difficult, but I am trying to have us focus and bring to our discussion some direct experience...how does that sound?
Calvino Rabeni: sounds good
Liza Deischer: ok
Mickorod Renard: brb
Maxine Walden: My understanding of our PaB sessions is to try to draw upon our direct experience perhaps even more than our intellectual considerations...
Maxine Walden: we need to have some framework, something of a focus, but these exercises in direct experience help to balance the often very keen intellectual side...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, an act of balance, to give it a chance
Maxine Walden: exactly, Cal
Calvino Rabeni: put it first for a while
Maxine Walden: right...
Lila Darkmatter: when i drop my role as a 'worker' or whatever, i don't stop working, so maybe while doing pab, ideas about pab sometimes need to be dropped and just play :)
Maxine Walden: interesting, Lila
Lila Darkmatter has obviously been here before
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Wol Euler: good to see you were taking notes.
Wol Euler: hello ara
Liza Deischer: hi Ara
Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara :)
Lila Darkmatter: Hello arabella
Aubergine Mint: Hi Arabella
Mickorod Renard: hi ara
Maxine Walden: About to go into the pause, Ara, and try to observe what we can 'let go of' and what may seem more tenacious or 'hanging around'
arabella Ella: ah
Maxine Walden: trying to focus some on our direct experience
arabella Ella: yes
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: So, what is sharable from the pause?
Maxine Walden: What experiences?
Aubergine Mint: what does it mean to "let go of" during such a short time?
arabella Ella: well i dont know how appropriate this is but here goes
arabella Ella: i had to deal with a small family health emergency tonite
arabella Ella: and during the pause i realised
arabella Ella: how easy it is to let go of practically everything ... drop literally everything ... when such emergencies occur
Wol Euler nods.
arabella Ella: everything else fades into obscurity however important it previously seemed to be
Liza Deischer: thats interesting
Lila Darkmatter: yes it is
Maxine Walden: hmmm, yes, ara.
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: it is just a reflection now during the pause over my experience these past couple of hours
Maxine Walden: yes, and maybe Aubergiine your question may be answered by some of the responses...
Mickorod Renard: but also it can work visa versa,,over that particular crisis,,a sort of stepping back,,and a chance to viwe from a new perspective
Calvino Rabeni: For me "let go of" means I have an idea, "this is what I do, or am" and give it up. LIke, I will not need to continue with something. And I am still "I" without it.
Maxine Walden: Did that occur for you during the pause, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: yes, that is what happens.
Calvino Rabeni: There is odd thing about it
Aubergine Mint: is it just that you stop thinking about who you are?
Calvino Rabeni: The things appear just before they can be dropped - so I barely see the things I "cannot drop"
Wol Euler: Aubergine, you'll probably get as many diferent answers as there are people here, of how the dropping actually gets done :)
Calvino Rabeni: it is a part of pheno also, that I don't really "get"
Lila Darkmatter: I'm an alt today, of regular 'pab-er' so I thought about identity within context and what others draw from a person v what one expects from themself.. what it means to shift gears/boundaries
Liza Deischer: The way you put it almost sounds like you are experiencing in toughs
Liza Deischer: thoughts
arabella Ella: for me Aubergine when someone needs my support urgently I just stop thinking who i am, yes
Aubergine Mint: nothing actually drops, you're still who you are
Wol Euler: that is a kind of flow state, isn't it, Ara?
Wol Euler: you become entirely one with what needs to happen *right now*
Lila Darkmatter: who you are isn't caught up in who you think you are then maybe
arabella Ella: yes Wol and it feels so strange to drop all work deadlines for example which seemed to be so pressing
Calvino Rabeni: Thoughts are ore can be, a direct experience too - it is not just "perception"
Maxine Walden: such a change of perspective, of what matters...all of a sudden
arabella Ella: @Lila ... not sure what you mean ... who you are ... who you think you are?
Calvino Rabeni: You ahve a direct experience of having thoughts
Maxine Walden: yes, Cal, that may be
Lila Darkmatter: well, you kind of stop thinking, in an emergency... out of 'your head' anyway... attention shifts outward
Liza Deischer: true Cal
Wol Euler: Aubergine, it probably sounds as though people go into the pause with something in mind, say an aspect of themselves that they have identified, and try to drop that one thing
Liza Deischer: but I would like to know what that experience is about (and maybe Im not very clear :))
Wol Euler: whereas at least for myself, I try to do nearly the opposite: I imagine literally letting go, opening my hands, breathing out, expelling all conscious thoughts
Maxine Walden: (I have about 2 min before I have to leave. Just to mention beforehand)
Wol Euler: and then I often notice that something I had thought was part of me is missing.
Mickorod Renard: yes, I try that too wol
Wol Euler: at least for me, the dropping is done in retrospect. I see that a piece has gone, and think "ah, I dropped the idea that it is uncomfortably cold today"
arabella Ella: i find pauses as both aspects of reflection and relaxation ... as a release in both cases
Mickorod Renard: I find I am able to make observations ,,just observations,,and listenings etc,,without attaching thoughts
Calvino Rabeni: could work either way apparently
Aubergine Mint: sounds like a shift in attention
Maxine Walden: (don't want to interrupt this wonderful conversation; will just go; see you all later)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Calvino Rabeni: bye Max
Mickorod Renard: closing down the recieving noise of thoughts
Lila Darkmatter: bye Maxine
Mickorod Renard: bye Max
Wol Euler: snap, I was jus going to talk about "signal to noise", Mick
Aubergine Mint: so like a meditation
Calvino Rabeni: you get to subtler types of thoughts, ones with less commotion
Mickorod Renard: yes
Wol Euler: there is information (call it that) all around us, some of it is noise and some is signal. Basically we decide where along the line the dividing marker is
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: maybe just a flow in of subtle information,,without self imposed analasis
Liza Deischer: but there is an interesting question in Aubergines question
Calvino Rabeni: If I listento the sound of the computer fan, it is signal
Liza Deischer: what can we drop or not
Calvino Rabeni: noise is not in the world
Liza Deischer: what is personality
Liza Deischer: ?
Liza Deischer: (hmm maybe i open a new discussion here :))
Wol Euler: it's a good question.
Calvino Rabeni: Is a good question
Aubergine Mint: don't think you can ever stop analysing stimulus that comes to you unless you are unconscious
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: in my experience you can do that
Calvino Rabeni: I thik it is talked about in some sessions
Wol Euler: perhaps put it this way: you don't stop noticing, but you can stop assigning a value to what you see
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Mickorod Renard: I often feel unconcious
arabella Ella: Liza i think it may be better to ask what the self is ... rather than personality
Aubergine Mint: I think your unconscious keeps working
Calvino Rabeni: you wouldn't notice it if you were :)
Lila Darkmatter: I'm not sure that could ever be mapped out ... one just has to see? Like Wol said sometimes you drop something, but maybe its something that you thought was you... then you think "Hm, must not have been intrinsic.. or is more malleable than I thought?"
Aubergine Mint: you may just shift your attention away from it
Liza Deischer: wel I was trying to avoid that word Ara
Aubergine Mint: or towards it
Liza Deischer: but maybe youre right
Mickorod Renard: maybe I just act unconcious to get out of doing the pots
Wol Euler: he
Lila Darkmatter: :)
arabella Ella: i personally think it is emotions, feelings, sensations, habits and other such aspects of the self that one could drop if one wishes to do so
Liza Deischer: the labels
Lila Darkmatter: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: I knew a man wh would go to the dentist and get the drill, without anesthetic, and he would "drop" pain.
arabella Ella: to some extent perhaps a bit like the expression ... mind over matter
Mickorod Renard: I have managed to shut out pain that way Cal
Calvino Rabeni: I didn't have the courage for that test :)
Wol Euler: :)
arabella Ella: :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Lila Darkmatter: yes people learn techniques in natural childbirth also, but sometimes it is more like putting it 'over there'
Mickorod Renard: I do it often with my partners cooking
Aubergine Mint: gtg bye all
Lila Darkmatter: haha Mick
Mickorod Renard: nite Aubb
Lila Darkmatter: Bye Aubergine
Wol Euler: bye aubergine, take care. Happy holidays
Liza Deischer: nite Aubergine
arabella Ella: nite Aubergene
Aubergine Mint: you too everyone
Mickorod Renard: gosh,,is that the time
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Wol Euler: I should go too, I'm flying tomorrow morning.
Liza Deischer: time flies when youre having fun :)
Mickorod Renard: oh yea,,have u cover yet Wol,,for the sessions?
Wol Euler: paradoxically it seldom flies when you are flying
Liza Deischer: :)
Wol Euler: not that I know of, Mick. (looks hopefully)
Mickorod Renard: have a nice trip
Lila Darkmatter: Night Wol. Happy Holidays :)
Mickorod Renard: are they the 13;00 hour sessions?
Wol Euler: 1am Friday mornings
Wol Euler: oh hang on, Pema#s taken them
Mickorod Renard: mmm cant do those
Wol Euler: just remembered.
Liza Deischer: bye Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Wol Euler: goodngiht all, be happy and do lots of good dropping
Mickorod Renard: nite yaku
Liza Deischer: night Yaku
Lila Darkmatter: Night Ya
Mickorod Renard: bye wol
Lila Darkmatter: Ara, is everything okay now?
arabella Ella: well ... difficult to tell ... we must wait for tomorrow
Mickorod Renard: lila
Lila Darkmatter: oh, I certainly hope all will be fine
Lila Darkmatter: yes Mick? :)
arabella Ella: thanks for your concern :)
Mickorod Renard: sorry, just slipped
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I had best get home
--BELL--
Lila Darkmatter: sl animals to feed?
Lila Darkmatter: :)
Mickorod Renard: I can feel my concentration slipping
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,sl cats , dolphins birds
Lila Darkmatter: haha
arabella Ella: quite a zoo then Mick
Mickorod Renard: plants to water
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella: anyone there experiencing RL snow at the moment ... just curious
Liza Deischer: we had a lot of snow today
Mickorod Renard: wow
Mickorod Renard: lots?
Liza Deischer: between 10 and 15 cm
arabella Ella: well it is really cold here tonight temperature will go down to 8 celsius
Mickorod Renard: I heard amsterdam airport was blocked
Lila Darkmatter: brrrr
Liza Deischer: and therewas already snow on the streets
arabella Ella: but apparently in poland they had minus 33
Liza Deischer: could well be
Mickorod Renard: lovely
Liza Deischer: I believe some plains got out
arabella Ella: sounds like you may have a white christmas then Liza
Liza Deischer: but other airports were blocked
Mickorod Renard: I guess we shud be grateful with what we get
Liza Deischer: I hope so
Liza Deischer: but it is hard to get around
arabella Ella: yes
Liza Deischer: have been driving yesterday
Liza Deischer: I beter could have been walking
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: scarey to drive in snow
Liza Deischer: faster that way
Mickorod Renard: I cant help thinking of the doom scenarios of global warming etc
Liza Deischer: if you take it slow
Liza Deischer: bye Mick
arabella Ella: depends how far you would have to walk
Liza Deischer: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, mick, I will think of doom for a couple days :)
Liza Deischer: well that could be a problem with Christmas
Mickorod Renard: bye,,hope to see u all soon
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Lila Darkmatter: bye Mick :)
Calvino Rabeni: take care
arabella Ella: i must go too ... nite everyone
Lila Darkmatter: Night Ara :)
Calvino Rabeni: fly well, arabella
Liza Deischer: nite Ara
Liza Deischer: you got my IM CAL?
Lila Darkmatter: I should go also, have spent too much time in front of the computer screen today... time for a walk I think
Calvino Rabeni: SOmetimes the IM tabs are hidden, I dont see them
Calvino Rabeni: Glad to have you here
Liza Deischer: bye Lila
Lila Darkmatter: Bye for now Liza and Calvino :)
Calvino Rabeni: Play well, Lila
Calvino Rabeni: Lila means play
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: (( note to editor - I am splicing in the IM in which the talk continued ))
Calvino Rabeni: (( Note to maxine - I will add the text later ))