2009.12.29 19:00 - Economy of Attention

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug!
Eos Amaterasu: ho ho ho
doug Sosa: post christmas cheerio -oh
Eos Amaterasu: how is applied play as being going?
doug Sosa: been getting my first black screen in windows 7 with second life. so i may get knowced out.
doug Sosa: ah, glad you asked. i don't like the "appled" distinction. ruins the whole thing. If economy is not "seen" in normal experience then i don't want to go there, but i think it is.
Eos Amaterasu: seeing things in normal experience is seeing them as they matter to you
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Eos and doug
doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.
doug Sosa: hi cal
Eos Amaterasu: This is great. So let us try that in the 19:15 90 secs coming up
Eos Amaterasu: (if not sooner)
Eos Amaterasu: economy in the 90 secs
Eos Amaterasu: can you say more about that , Doug?
doug Sosa: or notice and then we can discover after if it was economy or no.
Calvino Rabeni: greetings Arch
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch
doug Sosa: for example, since i have a few minutes, we are aware of each other (last night), but we are also aware of the building, as a setting, and that setting exudes a kind of opulence, Hilton hawaii, and has an impact on how we experience each other.
Archmage Atlantis: Hello
doug Sosa: arch, hi.
Eos Amaterasu muses on "Hilton hawaii"....
Eos Amaterasu: I experience this place as very classical
Eos Amaterasu: this is our Delphi
doug Sosa: It speaks of power and opulence.
Archmage Atlantis: This bouncing out of a gay night club while pole dancing is a bit disorienting, one moment
doug Sosa: classical is a "class' differentiator. This with a good education have it.
doug Sosa: too fast, those with a good education have "classical" as a marker of class.
doug Sosa: so in this setting i think we experience that/
Calvino Rabeni: this economic fish, in the economic water, says...keep speaking of this thing called water
Archmage Atlantis: I have a prose/poem called water
doug Sosa: your writing?
Eos Amaterasu: [19:07] doug Sosa: yes, well, what i would like to say is, if economy doesn't show up in the 9 sec, and can then be dropped, it isn't intersting. i don't think there is a special division of worlds between applied and pure.

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: Did economy show up? Was it dropped? What else showed up?
doug Sosa: i looked out in the distance, across the manicured grass, and felt like i was in a country club.
doug Sosa: economy enough?
Eos Amaterasu: full of economic implications
doug Sosa: as present as the cushions we sit on, or the snow..
Eos Amaterasu: such a way of looking at this place never occurred to me, but I can see it now that you mention it
doug Sosa: but hadn't you felt it before at times, yet unnoticed?
Archmage Atlantis: Found it
Archmage Atlantis: WaterShare Friday, December 25, 2009 at 1:01pm | Edit Note | Delete Water It brings life It brings death It is the force on this planet Who are we I ask the water It only brings new birth As the child is born
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Calvino Rabeni: I imagined all the objects made with atoms around me, each made of energy, with little dollar signs and an equation translating energy to money
doug Sosa: hi, must be behind me
Calvino Rabeni: And I felt resistant
Eos Amaterasu: oh yes... I totally agree with the principle of what you're saying... simple perception is already fully value-charged
Eos Amaterasu: lag / overlap / asynch
Archmage Atlantis: Brother, there is no money in true reality
doug Sosa: nor much reality in true money.
doug Sosa: But we live in between.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes we do
Eos Amaterasu: so from a sustainability point of view, what is true wealth?
doug Sosa: Is eating part of true reality?
Archmage Atlantis: Is death a par?
Archmage Atlantis: What of each of us goes on
doug Sosa: par three. born, married, die. Don't do a hole in one.
Archmage Atlantis: For those who have children, the answer seems easy
Eos Amaterasu groks that in fullness
Calvino Rabeni: It's hard not to worship money given that every item in my environment is only there due to an immense economic system
doug Sosa: So the point is economic-like things are experienced directly in normal or 9 sec experience.
Calvino Rabeni: But I have a hard time labeling it as "direct"
Calvino Rabeni: Or assigning it any fundamental status
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, Doug, the fight \goes on .... even if you cannot conclude it
doug Sosa: the feeling of this space, its opulence, i think is direct. If not, what is more direct?
Eos Amaterasu: It's also conditional
Archmage Atlantis: Ideas have true value
Eos Amaterasu: I did not get a feeling of 'opulence' from it
Eos Amaterasu: I did, or do, get a different, or various, feelings from it
doug Sosa: well, my word short cut. the interesting question is what is the experience bing here, not of "it" but the atmosphere, the felt.
Eos Amaterasu: it's full of charge and value
Calvino Rabeni: I like this inquiry, doug, and think it of potential value, but it hasn't hinted of any epiphany
Calvino Rabeni: yet I mean
Archmage Atlantis: I 0nly know what I feel
doug Sosa: There is often made, by meditation folks, a distinction between here and now, and abstract out there.
Calvino Rabeni: still listening
doug Sosa: My point is that things like economy are absolutely immediate, as are the cushions.
Archmage Atlantis: A 19 yo music student once asked me...._how do you know what I experience_
Archmage Atlantis: And I had to say
doug Sosa: and the here and now vs out there distinction is arbitrary and misleading.
Archmage Atlantis: I do not
Eos Amaterasu: if we kept things to that level we wouldn't be taken in by bubbling blizzards of economic b*llsh*t
doug Sosa: yet that bs also is rel, and experienceable, and has consequences. It is in our environment and no diffeent as a stuff than the water in the pond.
Eos Amaterasu: if we could but see it
Eos Amaterasu: in either case
Calvino Rabeni: it can't be seen?
Eos Amaterasu: we get divorced from it
doug Sosa: but we can see it. we see this space and have reactions to it, can feel it is the excrescence of a corporate aesthetic world, an oasis of privelage.

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: This planet may have seen it's last days......or at least with humans at the helm of the ship.....We have made ourselves into dinosaurs, once dominant, now extinct.
doug Sosa: I am surrounded by mountains. But i have learned to see the property lines BECASUE I SEE how people trat them as real.
stevenaia Michinaga: time will tell Arch
Eos Amaterasu is still non-plussed at the idea of here being a Hawaii Hilton
Calvino Rabeni: So they appear in the imagination
Archmage Atlantis: I am with Doug on this, I shall defend our right to be
doug Sosa: I was recently at the Hilton Hawaian Village in honolulu (conference). Much like. but here calmer people.
Calvino Rabeni: A direct experience of imagining the property lines
doug Sosa: I am sorry, dinner is screaming at me... bye for now.
stevenaia Michinaga: bye doug
Archmage Atlantis: I have not children or grandchildren, but the animals, we took responsibility for them
Eos Amaterasu: poof!
Archmage Atlantis: I will do what I can to fulfill that responsibility
Calvino Rabeni: My economic status does not include responsibility for children either
Calvino Rabeni: which translates into lots of free time to do things like SL
Eos Amaterasu: free time is highly valuable :-)
Calvino Rabeni: economically, regarded as a non-renewable resource
stevenaia Michinaga: I often wonder the classifications we put on the indiginous "poor" simply because they don't subscribe or participate in our economic system, yet they have been "sustainable" as a culture for thousands of years w/o money or technology
Archmage Atlantis: A prose/poem on free time.........It begins with "Time is not free"
Archmage Atlantis: "It is limite"
Eos Amaterasu: different ways of thinking/telling the me-in-my-environment story
Eos Amaterasu: economy is about well-being
stevenaia Michinaga: sustainability can be to
stevenaia Michinaga: w/o economy
Archmage Atlantis: My dad worked of the railroads in the US, his pocket watch was the defining thing to that job
Eos Amaterasu: his crystal
Calvino Rabeni: It is a different imagined economy - the one where everything is not a commodity referenced to money as a single measure - economics as a theory is disturbingly totalizing
Archmage Atlantis: As to avoid train crashes, the trains had to sync
Archmage Atlantis: Monetarization, this is only to sync
Archmage Atlantis: Not to rule
Calvino Rabeni: But it ends up ruling
Archmage Atlantis: We have given it a ruling position
Eos Amaterasu: steady-state economics is probably key to sustainability
Eos Amaterasu: but we only have ponzi growth economic theories
stevenaia Michinaga: brb
Calvino Rabeni: money "says" everything is the same, and has no intrinsic value
Archmage Atlantis: No, Cal, people say that.....money says nothinbg
Eos Amaterasu: styles of money implementation have huge impact on society - money is not value neutral
Calvino Rabeni: yes, like guns don't kill people
Calvino Rabeni: but they do
Eos Amaterasu: but that is the meme : "business is business"
Calvino Rabeni: money is a good tool for ignoring many aspects of life
Eos Amaterasu: lives by its own rules
Calvino Rabeni: not value neutral
Archmage Atlantis: Selling ones soul to Mammon, that is an ancient trait of humans
Eos Amaterasu: so how is that happening right now? Selling our attention to distractions?
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, good question Eos
Calvino Rabeni: as you know, attention has been monetarized also
Calvino Rabeni: thus spawning an industry based on controlling peoples attention

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it always has been, did not the emperors and pharoahs demand full attention
Archmage Atlantis: Their way or the highway, sts
Eos Amaterasu: Most of what we attend to is other people, their attention
Eos Amaterasu: and our attention is jumpy, a little psycho even
Eos Amaterasu: it's not different than a personal 90 secs
Eos Amaterasu: but it needs to go global
Calvino Rabeni: say more eos? what needs to go global?
Eos Amaterasu: being able to relax in attention
Eos Amaterasu: as opposed to jumping around being pulled this way and that by it
Calvino Rabeni: something like, being "at choice" with every activity? Or just certain times?
Eos Amaterasu: (maybe a "slow media" movement :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I propose a Media Sabbath.
Calvino Rabeni: No media allowed that day of the week.
Eos Amaterasu: I second that
Eos Amaterasu: We did that for a while at my home
Eos Amaterasu: analog sundays
Eos Amaterasu: no screens
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eos Amaterasu: zeroth life
Archmage Atlantis: And on the 7th day, God rested
Eos Amaterasu: cause real life is with screens
Calvino Rabeni: Books ok on Analog Sunday?
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Eos Amaterasu: (don't know about kindle)
Calvino Rabeni: Machine games not ok?
Eos Amaterasu: Not okay
Calvino Rabeni: makes sense
Eos Amaterasu: yes, just your senses :-)
Eos Amaterasu: SL helps in appreciating that kind of time-out
Calvino Rabeni: A day to not be programmed
Eos Amaterasu: cause it's a kind of time-out... maybe we get more flexible in seeing / trying /dropping nth-lives
Archmage Atlantis: You 2 are founding new age fundamentalism
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Arch :)
Eos Amaterasu: world domination :-)
Archmage Atlantis: Teach each to let go, when the need to let go is needed
Calvino Rabeni: A fundamentalism that is only 1 of 7 days is ok by me - actually the definition to me of fundamentalism is it tries to totalize everything in some way
Archmage Atlantis: Allow others to hold, what they need to hold
Calvino Rabeni: everything else is a gesture of balance
Eos Amaterasu: it helps to pull the plug to hear the noise
Archmage Atlantis: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: that's also how the 9 secs or 90 secs works
Calvino Rabeni: A restriction of the freedom to be programmed, is a liberation
Calvino Rabeni: as is any true discipline
Archmage Atlantis: That is why Hillel has rabbi's and not priests
Calvino Rabeni: makes good sens
Calvino Rabeni: a rabbi is more a leader, less a dictator
Calvino Rabeni: more a friend
Archmage Atlantis: rabbi is teacher
Archmage Atlantis: I do not even like that
Calvino Rabeni: a distinctive type of teacher, though
Archmage Atlantis: I prefer "one who shares"
Calvino Rabeni: is good
Calvino Rabeni: I like the dialogue and argument of that tradition, compared to authoritarianism that imposes things
Archmage Atlantis: It is why I had to change a saying that was given to me by one whom I respect
Archmage Atlantis: Learn, Share one's learning, Love yourself, Love others"
Calvino Rabeni: What did you change, Arch?

--BELL--

Archmage Atlantis: Share one's learning.....it was given to me as teach......my mother was a 5th grade teacher......I could only hear that as obey what one is taught.
Calvino Rabeni: ah
Calvino Rabeni: I like the classic saying - If not me, then who? If not now, then when?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I like that also
Archmage Atlantis: It is a quote
Calvino Rabeni: Hillel I think?
Archmage Atlantis: I believe so, yes
Calvino Rabeni: Having the chat logs is very interesting - it makes it possible to be more objective about opinions I may question
Archmage Atlantis: Another theologian I have found comfort in is Paul Tillich
Calvino Rabeni: What does he bring?
Archmage Atlantis: The courage to be is the courage to accept oneself, in spite of being unacceptable. - Paul Tillich (1886 - 1965)
Eos Amaterasu: to be unconditionally
Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave.... bye Cal and Arch
Archmage Atlantis: yes, Eos, that is what it says
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eos
Eos Amaterasu: rich discussion
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, lots there, fertile
Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in fertile ground grow
Calvino Rabeni: Over time, if watered, they do
Archmage Atlantis: Seeds planted in the desert survive
Calvino Rabeni: And protected from the light of the sun
Calvino Rabeni: darkness is important to a seed
Archmage Atlantis: A friend of mine, who is German, said I am like a saying he knows
Archmage Atlantis: It did not translate well to English
Archmage Atlantis: Still I understood
Archmage Atlantis: It was something like
Archmage Atlantis: "Bad weeds grow tall"
Calvino Rabeni: What did you take the message to be?
Archmage Atlantis: That I am a difficult weed, and I shall always return

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: I figured out that Google is a better way to scan the chat logs than the search engine built into the wiki
Archmage Atlantis: There are many who await me - t\his II I do notunderstand
Archmage Atlantis: Pray for your soul Cal, as you are chosen
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Arch I will :)
Calvino Rabeni: PaB is pretty inter-religious as it stands
Calvino Rabeni: I would care for an occasional focus
Calvino Rabeni: but not sure how well it would work
Archmage Atlantis: It is a glimpse of enlightenment
Archmage Atlantis: Must go
Calvino Rabeni: Same, see you later Arch
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_