2009.12.13 08:00 - Guarding the Space of Emergence

This week's guardian session was attended by 12 guardians: Bolonath, Calvino, doug, Eden, Eos, Eliza, Lia, Maxine, Qt, Storm, Wol, and Yakuzza. We warm up by discussing the freezing weather, move onto the happenings of the week, into Play as Being themes and practices, then finish up by sharing feelings doubts and questions...

Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine :)
Eliza Madrigal: All well?
Maxine Walden: All's well here; with you?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, thanks. :)
haven't thought much about guardian meeting topics... Have you?
Maxine Walden: no, I have not either...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: So we'll see what comes up I guess
Maxine Walden: guess we could call that open-minded or unprepared
Lia Rikugun: hello eliza, maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Right now I am surrounded by Harvest decorations, since my kids have decided that we should celebrate all the holidays we didn't pay much attention to this year :)
Maxine Walden: ah, interesting, Eliza
Maxine Walden: hi, doug and Eos
Maxine Walden: hi Cal
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eox, doug, Calvino
Lia Rikugun: hello doug, eos
Eos Amaterasu: ~, ~, ~, ~, ~
doug Sosa: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Lia Rikugun: hi calvino
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everybody
Eliza Madrigal: I feel as though I should call you "Retreat-mode Storm"
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Maxine Walden: Hi, Storm, Wol
Storm Nordwind: Haha - that's to come Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Qt :)
Qt Core: hi all
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste' Bolo :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eden :)
Eden Haiku: Hi Eliza.
Maxine Walden: OK, just checking
Wol Euler smiles
doug Sosa: check
Eden Haiku: :-)
Wol Euler: you#re looking very seasonal, Eden.
Maxine Walden: sorry, finishing a short IM with Wol, and it came out here
Eden Haiku: Pretty cold here this morning...
Eos Amaterasu: Ditto
Wol Euler: here too, actually snowing right now for the first time this winter
Maxine Walden: how cold is cold where you each are?
Wol Euler: *time
Eos Amaterasu: -8 C
Wol Euler: about +1°C
Lia Rikugun: wow thats cold!
Eos Amaterasu: high winds
doug Sosa: 44 f
Eliza Madrigal: Brrrrr...shivers, though where I am it is 84*F today :)
Wol Euler: o.O
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: 0 C
Qt Core: +6.5 C
Eden Haiku: +2C but we are not used to it yet...
Maxine Walden: about -3 C here
Storm Nordwind: very warm and windy here this morning: 43°F/+6°C
Eden Haiku: Where are you on this earth Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: Nova Scotia
Wol Euler: Eos wins, for certain values of "win"
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eos Amaterasu has a warm fire going
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure it is gorgeous... crackling fire, etc
Maxine Walden: lovely to be warm in the outside cold
Eden Haiku: Ah...Close to Trungpa center then...
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind recorded -26°C earlier this week
Wol Euler: O.O
Lia Rikugun: brrrr
Eos Amaterasu: O!.O!
Eden Haiku: -26 in Denver, that is cold!
Maxine Walden: Wow, Storm, you take the ice cube for the week, for sure
Eliza Madrigal pictures the snow topped Rockies...
doug Sosa: heart 73F and dropping
Storm Nordwind: But in typical Coloradan weather, it swings wildly - and quickly
Storm Nordwind: unlike the cool and serene inhabitants in a state of meditative equipoise
Wol Euler: :)
Eden Haiku: ;-)

Maxine begins to focus the session...

Maxine Walden: (wondering about what guardian themes we might be musing about in our conversation right now)
Eden Haiku: All that because I was wearing a shal and boots indoors...
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: We appreciate cuteness Eden! :)
Eliza Madrigal: Checking the weather is a way of getting a sense of everyone together perhaps..
Eden Haiku: Maybe I shall let go of the boots in this Japanese hall...
Storm Nordwind: Typical British way of "breaking the ice" ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eden Haiku: Yes, I love these conversations.
Eden Haiku: We say things beyond words maybe.
Eliza Madrigal: Well, off the top of my head for topics I'm thinking that this week we had two great theme sessions.. YS, ES, BS, and Facilitation. Also, wonderful mentoring and learning going on...
Maxine Walden: yes, Eliza, care to say more...?
Eliza Madrigal: Really impressive and appreciated
Eden Haiku: I very much appreciated Wol, Eliza and Steve's mentoring this past week.
Eliza Madrigal: Eden jumped right into everything, and has made lovely guardian pages
Eden Haiku: blushes
Maxine Walden: wonderful, Eden
Storm Nordwind: Your wonderful infectious enthusiasm, Eden, makes us reassess our our actions. Thank you for that!
Wol Euler: hear hear.
Storm Nordwind: *own own
Storm Nordwind: *our own - can't type today!
Wol Euler: must be the unexpected warmth.
Eden Haiku: Thanks Storm. I have been reading the Chronicles and I'm really impressed by PaB.

Maxine Walden: Perhaps Eden's experience is exemplifying the value of the archiving going on in PaB as well as how new enthusiasm so aids us all
Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely!
Eliza Madrigal: Calvino utilized the guardian pages to pull together a very detailed writing about faciliation, also, which complimented the theme session that will continue with Eos.

Calvino Rabeni: present intelligent minds + log == great resource :)
Maxine Walden: indeed, Cal.
Maxine Walden: Thanks, so,
Maxine Walden: .
Eliza Madrigal: So... all in all, yes quite inspiring :) It seems I've failed to send a note, but Wol will you be available for mentoring today at Maxine's session? The dialogs between you and Pema have been wonderful so might you say something about those two things?
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry if I put you on the spot) :)
Wol Euler: at 1pm? yes, I will be there.
Maxine Walden: great!!
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Accidental Mentoring...

Wol Euler: There was an accidental mentoring session on Wednesday, after the YSBS/ES theme talk with Pema, arising out of questions.
Wol Euler: as in: I hadn'T intended to do that then and was taken by surprise :)
Eliza Madrigal: Spontaneous!
Wol Euler: it was hard work, sure, but also very enjoyable. I would encourage everyone here to "have a go", perhaps just informally as the occasion arises.
Eliza Madrigal: I thought your descriptions were wonderful and clear http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/12/2009.12.09_13%3a00_-_Following_up_on_YS%2c_BS_and_ES

Calvino pulls together an acronym page during the course of the session...

Calvino Rabeni: A quick question I'd like to ask - for a project I have in - could everyone just state as many of the PAB acronyms as you can easily remember? YS, BS, YSBS, etc. ?
Wol Euler: APAPB
Eos Amaterasu: WTA
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think we have an acronym for "Drop what you have to see what you are"
Calvino Rabeni: Non acronymed basic ideas too thanks ELiza
Eliza Madrigal: WTA, Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: Watch Thoughts Arise (comes after wtf :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hehhee
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, of course!
Wol Euler: Wu wei is not one of *our* ideas, but it comes up so often that it's worth putting in
Calvino Rabeni: :) other way around for me :)
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Other themes... hm we've talked about permission and non-judgementalism... not really as excercizes...
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks - we hav a wiki, so if I create a glossary page, I hope everyone will feel free to add to it
Wol Euler: good idea.
Maxine Walden: very good idea, Cal, thanks
Eliza Madrigal: yes there is a page, but it has basically one line about things, under 'frequently asked questions'
Eliza Madrigal: so will be helpful
Eos Amaterasu: "stop and drop"
Storm Nordwind: There is the idea of "epoché". Pema has used this more in relation to phenomenology, but I suspect it also relates to PaB.
Eliza Madrigal: yes that's defintely useful, too... and perhaps "What else is true?"
Wol Euler: yes, definitely Storm. To be filed with Wu wei in the category of "the ideas behind the ideas"?

I imagine Wu Way is a good name for a pathless path...

Eos Amaterasu thinks it may be a good idea to name the Village street "Wu Way"
Storm Nordwind laughs
Eliza Madrigal loves that idea
Wol Euler laughs
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Maxine Walden: :))
Adams Rubble is Online
Eden Haiku: Wu Way!
Storm Nordwind is just consulting the font library of his Art Dept for a sign
Eliza Madrigal: Ohh...relative/absolute... mentioning also aspects of openness/detail
Maxine Walden: signposts for our creative meanderings
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: once one starts thinking in this direction it is quite remarkable... suspension, allowing, etc

Upcoming Malta retreat...

Eliza Madrigal: Eos, do you have updates or information on the retreat you'd like to share here?
Eos Amaterasu: We have 9 or 10 people who are, or are likely to be, attending
Eos Amaterasu: WE've set up a google group for those (like we did with August California retreat)
Eliza Madrigal: Is there any sort of theme for this retreat? Leading up to California there was a focus on apapb... so just curious
Eos Amaterasu: I don't think there is a specific theme... in California there was a series of explorations
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: which as time went on, and we spent time suspended together, seemed to intensify
Eos Amaterasu: and also relax bigger :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eos Amaterasu: The SL/RL crossing through retreat is a discovery
Eos Amaterasu: as well as RL/SL on the way back
Eos Amaterasu: "journey into the unknown, where the hand of man has never set foot :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Maxine Walden: :)
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Maxine Walden: yes, new territory
Eliza Madrigal: Seems we're all of that sort to like that kind of adventuring :)
Maxine Walden: discovering our own signposts
Eos Amaterasu: Looking forwared also to the interplay with the location, Malta with its ancient history
Maxine Walden: indeed, Eos

:) "PaB-types" learning styles...

Storm Nordwind wondered this week whether there was an unusual preponderance of "Activist" learning styles in PaB
Maxine Walden: oh, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: It would go with the love of exploring, or at least the willingness to do so
Wol Euler: activist as in "learn by doing"?
Eliza Madrigal: auto-didactic?
Storm Nordwind: An Activist learning style is one where there is a preference for learning from new experience
Maxine Walden: ahh
Storm Nordwind: In contrast to preparation from theory or from reflection... though none of these are mutually exclusive
Calvino Rabeni: (from previous topic) here it is, please feel free to add http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Vocabulary_of_Play_As_Being

Bolo brings up direct experience, and Maxine brings texture...

Bolonath Crystal: in recent sessions we had mentioned the importance of own experiences
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods nods
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, which brings "Starting at the end" which should be in there :)
Eos Amaterasu: Finally!
Wol Euler: right!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Eos Amaterasu: Emphasis on direct experience
Maxine Walden: For me learning from experience involves facing the unknown with curiosity rather than dread
Bolonath Crystal nods
Maxine Walden: ...or appreciating potential dread as a background issue but having the courage to privilege curiosity instead
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, courage :) Explorers require that :)
Storm Nordwind: Piquant description Maxine!
Wol Euler: nicely said. I do like that.
Maxine Walden: hmm.
Storm Nordwind: Courage is not the same as obliviousness! :)
Wol Euler: wasn't there a book sometime back called "Feel the fear but do it anyway"?
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I have to pretend to be oblivious in order to be courageous... hehe

Pushing the river...

Calvino Rabeni: I want to ask for current thoughts about guardians being directive - to encourage focus in PAB sessions, vs go-with-the-flow.
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes a push helps with fear
Eos Amaterasu: I've been trying to notice upcoming 90 secs, and ask for "framings" from participants
Calvino Rabeni: I saw and liked that
Qt Core: i like more little pushes, like taking inspiration from the "unfocused" chatting and try to go back to "higher" topics
Storm Nordwind: What we do and talk about all stems from the practice. Therefore emphasizing that with the framings is a good technique
Eliza Madrigal: Initiatives are really welcomed, with a sense of testing waters and listening for group interest, etc... sensitivity
Calvino Rabeni: One might observe a seemingly difficult topic broached, then followed by a concerted effort at "nice weather we're having"
Maxine Walden: Afraid the hour is up, goes so quickly, and I have to go...see you all soon
Wol Euler: ... which is a pretty natural conversational dynamic in RL and SL

Suggestions toward what might bring focus naturally... 

Storm Nordwind: perhaps it is a nudge for us to practise more ourselves outside PaB discussion sessions in the Pavilion. If we are immersed in the practice, I suspect focussed topics to discuss will naturally arise.
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine! :)
Maxine Walden: bye all
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care, see you later
Wol Euler: I'm not really sure how to answer your question, Calvino.
Eliza Madrigal: Good point, Storm... suspect your right. Keep our own cauldrons simmering, as it were :)
Eliza Madrigal: you're *
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder how much some of these things have to do with manners and online, having to have implicit feedback vs. seeing reactions to ideas/topics, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Guardians stir the pot...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: carefully :)
Lia Rikugun: (sorry, have to leave too, can someone post the log afterwards please, since I will nbot have the complete log?)
Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Lia :)
Lia Rikugun: thank you!
Wol Euler: sure. bye lia, take care
Lia Rikugun: bye everyone
Eden Haiku: bye Lia!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lia :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Lia
Bolonath Crystal: bfn
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
Wol Euler: bye bolo, storm
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Eliza Madrigal: Om Shanti Bolo, Namaste Storm :)
Eden Haiku: Om shanti Bolonath!
Eden Haiku: Namaste Storm.

Guarding the space of emergence...

Wol Euler: I am very uncomfortable about the idea of directing the content of sessions.
Eliza Madrigal listens closely
Eden Haiku: I share your views Wol.
Calvino Rabeni: It is an interesting facilitation topic
Wol Euler: I endorse directiong the style and manner of discourse, of enforcing standards of politeness and tolerance
Qt Core: it has to be a gentle nudging, not an order
Wol Euler: and will continue to do so.
Eos Amaterasu: guarding the space of emergence, Wol?
Eliza Madrigal: MM, wonderful phrasing Eos!
Calvino Rabeni: do you see a distinction between directing content and working with the process, Wol?
Wol Euler: but I have absolutely no intention of cutting off a polite and tolerant discussion of what was for dinner (say) if those who are present clearly wish to talk about that
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol, I think your directness gets right to the heart...
Wol Euler: yes, I do. Pema is masterful at relating every topic, however mundane or abstruse, back to PaB.
Wol Euler: it seems to me that Storm is advocating actively steering the conversation (to overstate the case for dramatic purposes)
Calvino Rabeni: And there may be a difference btween "clearly wish to talk" and being on automatic
Eliza Madrigal: For me, I appreciate a sense of standing back and seeing what Being paints... don't want to lose that at all
Calvino Rabeni: it seems a judgment call
Eden Haiku: Time for lunch for me, have a nice day everyone!
Wol Euler: bye eden, keep warm
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Qt Core: time to switch pc, i used this one to much today the other may get jealous ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Wol, agree, pema uses the content to return to PAB focuses
Eliza Madrigal: I can see the need for both kinds of sessions, and weaving of everything, in a sense...
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: Meaning, there are things in PaB... ideas, practices.. that are not, seemingly...anywhere else
Qt Core: bye all
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt :)
Eliza Madrigal: so a strong emphasis on those things is satisfying some of the time... maybe much of the time....
Eliza Madrigal: for some of the guardians...? :)

The sports analogy is very thin, because what I was looking for was more a sense of intense play with raucous after parties and even pillow talk sessions... a wide range is what we ARE and bring...

Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes the pause / bell is completely ignored.
Eos Amaterasu: This has been an ongoing tension, 'tween leading and letting be (including guarding the "form" of discourse, as Wol said, and the "content" of conversation)
Calvino Rabeni: when there's a good flow going on, that doesn't bother me
Eliza Madrigal nods to Cal... for me that has to do with type of session, also...
Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand (is there another hand ?)_
Eliza Madrigal: for instance, poor Yakuzzas Friday 11000 word session...heheh
Wol Euler: as many as Shiva if you need them :)
Eos Amaterasu: There is another hand - we have talked about banning people, after all
Wol Euler: (is it Shiva of the 1000 hands? :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: My feeling is that lately we're coming to a good sense of balance...
Wol Euler nods to Eos.
Calvino Rabeni: I meant, when the bell is ignored, but the conversation seems chatty rather than compelling
Eliza Madrigal: because we're actively engaged in finding it :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Wol Euler: perhaps "compelling" is a value judgement of the kind that we strive not to make in other contexts?
Calvino Rabeni: I think it is something like contemplating on one's own time
Eos Amaterasu wonders about the bell...
Eliza Madrigal: yes surely Wol... each has his own way of playing... and each session/dynamic hopefully....
Eliza Madrigal: some sessions are football, some tennis, solitaire... ?
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Eos Amaterasu: 1:00 sesssions are often solitaire
Wol Euler: heheh
Calvino Rabeni: OK, when people seem "stuck", that is a value judgment
Calvino Rabeni: I am not a therapist, but there may be something in common with that practice
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps they enjoy getting a nudge from being stuck
Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps there is "being" in stuckness
Wol Euler: sure, if that is the case.
Calvino Rabeni: either way has some validity as an experience
Calvino Rabeni: but they are different choices

The Challenge, and Wol risks sounding like an old hippie...grin. I *nearly* named this session that!

Eos Amaterasu: I guess the challenge, if we feel we need to bring things back, is that they are brought back to openness, suspension, not to tightness
Wol Euler: at the risk lf sounding like an old hippie: I think they are the same root choice: to do what seems appropriate for that session with those people.
Wol Euler: go with the flow (coughs)
Eos Amaterasu: heh heh
Eliza Madrigal: My feeling I guess is that if someone feels a desire for more of certain types of conversations, etc... then they show up, bring up.... and YES.. in that spirit of 'taking things lightly'..(which can also be added to the list)
Calvino Rabeni: can we trust, to sense "tightness", without calling it a value judgment
Wol Euler: I don't know. There will be times when we can, and also times when the same person will be unable to tell.
Calvino Rabeni: I feel the same about it
Wol Euler shrugs. I fear that we are trying to regulate something un-regulate-able, because emergent.
Wol Euler: let us make as our rule then: Try to feel what is right, and to do it.

Wu Wei waves ...

Calvino Rabeni: non-action - the non-passive participation in what is going on
Eliza Madrigal: Well.... so the wu wei framework becames important...
Eliza Madrigal: yes, Calvino... and that means developing increasing sensitivity by really openly discussing... like this
Eos Amaterasu: I must be on my wei ... :-) thanx and bye!
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eos :)
Wol Euler: bye eos, take care
Calvino Rabeni: bye eos
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Eli, Cal, Wol, Yak
Eliza Madrigal smiles and likes to be called Eli :)
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: sensitivity is interesting
Eliza Madrigal: I have so many thoughts about this... but many of them don't agree with one another...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Wol Euler: (my "rule" was an open suggestion, btw, please improve or contradict)
Calvino Rabeni: we should not assume that an urge or feeling is internal to oneself and therefore somehow invalid to the group
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I think it goes with the sensitivity Wol...and manners/grace
Eliza Madrigal: 'how' we are feeling the group, etc
Calvino Rabeni: Grace is skill in action
Wol Euler: grace is a very good word for how we are (wish to be) in the group
Eliza Madrigal: yes...old fashioned manners... graciousness
Eliza Madrigal: holding doors open
Calvino Rabeni: Manners is effective use of well understood conventions
Calvino Rabeni: Cultivating the container of process for others
Eliza Madrigal has a lot to learn about this
Eliza Madrigal: trusting instincts
Calvino Rabeni: trusting insticts - good thing to look at
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, being "bored" could be a good signal that everyone is bored also and a change could be welcomed
Eliza Madrigal: I always feel I either held back too much or talked too much... suspect many are that way ...
Wol Euler: yes!
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: (but in my case with more reason :)

And btw, not at all Wol. ;) 

Calvino Rabeni: or it could be inability to accept what others have energy about
Eliza Madrigal: Well this seems a long perhaps, first step!
Eliza Madrigal: Exposing the questions and wonderings and worries
Wol Euler: I too must go, alas, I need some dinner and some warmth.
Eliza Madrigal: Night Wol :) Thank you
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that is part of opening things to looking, I think
Wol Euler: thank you for the great discussion.
Eliza Madrigal: You too, very much
Wol Euler: see you at 1pm I hope
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Wol
Eliza Madrigal remembers to send a note re mentoring :)
Eliza Madrigal is behind the ball
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I guess I should go too... but yes definitely an ongoing and important conversation
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Cal and Ya :)
Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation I think
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: See you alter
Calvino Rabeni: Later
Eliza Madrigal waves and smiles