2009.12.30 13:00 - Applied PaB & Sustainability Session 2

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

doug Sosa: pila, still a cloud!
Pila Mulligan: hi Doug -- I'm using the text only SLite (no graphics, to avoid crashing) -- it seems my internet connection has gone south for the winter
Pila Mulligan: it seems to stay a cloud
doug Sosa: ok. how does one do that?
Pila Mulligan: downloads SLite -- just a small software install
--BELL--
doug Sosa: fabulous. can they both be open at the same time?
Pila Mulligan: I think so -- with different avis
doug Sosa: right. ok.
doug Sosa: how are you?
Pila Mulligan: I'm fine thanks ... and you?
doug Sosa: good. but lots going on.
doug Sosa: hi zen.
Zen Arado: Hi Pila, Doug
Pila Mulligan: new decade about to start
Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
doug Sosa: gad yes, this century is ten percent ggone!
Pila Mulligan: and 1% of the millenia
Pila Mulligan: what's a mother to do
doug Sosa: zen, pila is invisible because of technical problems, but he is ehre in text.
genesis Zhangsun: hi!
Zen Arado: Hi Genesis
doug Sosa: hi.
Pila Mulligan: hi Gen
Zen Arado: Hi Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gen, Zen, Doug
Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
doug Sosa: hi all.
doug Sosa: gen, eos, pila is here in text only.
Eos Amaterasu: Sparkle?
Pila Mulligan: I'm using the text only SLite (no graphics, to avoid crashing) -- it seems my internet connection has gone south for the winter
Zen Arado: not in the pixels ?
Pila Mulligan: no pixels for Pila :)
Zen Arado: Hi Aubergine
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Aubergine
doug Sosa: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Aubergine
Aubergine Mint: hi everyone
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Zon
Zon Quar: hi all
genesis Zhangsun: hey Widget!
Zen Arado: Hi Widget
doug Sosa: shall we start (as if we hadn't)
Eos Amaterasu: ~
genesis Zhangsun: sure, so I thought today we can back up a bit from our last dialogue and talk about what brought us to this issue
genesis Zhangsun: Applied PaB, sustainability
doug Sosa: So, here I have a very serious point to make.
doug Sosa: My view is that things like "the economy" show up without any special effort, as much as do the pillows we are sitting on. In fact..
doug Sosa: it takes effort to "not see" the economy.
doug Sosa: So it follows that there is no such things as "applied PaB". It would be a contradiction.
Widget Whiteberry: I doubt we all see the same thing when we 'see' the economy
doug Sosa: Last night I gave an example
Widget Whiteberry: but maybe I miss your point
Zen Arado: it's an abstract concept
genesis Zhangsun: if we could hold off on group participation for this first 20 minutes that would be great :)
Widget Whiteberry nods
Zen Arado: not a tangible thing
genesis Zhangsun: this is a continuation of a theme session started two weeks ago
doug Sosa: as we sit here, we are aware of each other, but we are also mildly awatre of the setting, the marble, the open sapce neat grass like a country club. And
doug Sosa: this affects us.
doug Sosa: I believe that the economy is as tangible as the cushions.
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
genesis Zhangsun: yes but perhaps Doug you have to direct your attention to it
Qt Core: hi all
genesis Zhangsun: or do you suggest we just "see" it without any directing
doug Sosa: no. to not see it requires deliberatly not paying attention.
doug Sosa: If I am right.
doug Sosa: Just letting the mind go here we look at each others postures, we feel the sapce, we notice the light in the distance.
genesis Zhangsun: sure, but I think we are saying the same thing in a way, there are a multitude of reasons we don't "see" what is important
doug Sosa: No special effort of attention.
genesis Zhangsun: but a practice is what brings these things to the forefront
doug Sosa: Importnat is a judgement that comes in. first is ust the experience.
genesis Zhangsun: to be "seen"
Zen Arado: the value of money doesn't exist either
Zen Arado: it is based on trust
genesis Zhangsun: Zen if you could hold off on comment for the first 20 minutes that would be great :)
Zen Arado: not the same?
Zen Arado: ok sure
genesis Zhangsun: so Doug perhaps we can back up a bit and talk about how we, each of us came to this theme session
doug Sosa: go ahead.
genesis Zhangsun: I am encourgaed by the momentum behind the green movement, but I do feel that like all other "problems" today, the issue is approached from a reductionist and consumption based model
genesis Zhangsun: this is not to say that the green trade shows, the efforts and funding towards new technology are not a part of the solution
doug Sosa: I beleive they are not part of the solution.
genesis Zhangsun: but I feel that the societal reflective aspect of the movement is still lacking
genesis Zhangsun: I say that Doug, in the spirit that I think we create enough divisiveness already within movements
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: while I am critiquing the current movement I think my perspective is one among many, and varying perspective do not have to compete
genesis Zhangsun: I think it is about bringing perspectives together
genesis Zhangsun: even reductionist perspectives
genesis Zhangsun: such as science and technology as "the answer"
genesis Zhangsun: welcome Liza
Liza Deischer: hi all
Zen Arado: Hi Liza
doug Sosa: If i sit with someone and try to let go of concepts, i experience their tiredness, apprehension, a sense that there is no where to move, and that climate change is part of that claustrophobia.
doug Sosa: So how did i get into this theme? As many of you know I have been working with climate issues (and othe global issues maybe worse) for the last year.
doug Sosa: I have ben impressed with how PaB makes being more open easy, and it has become part of my normal practice.
doug Sosa: The i found myself using it in groups i was in and wondering, can they be intriduced to some form of the practice?
doug Sosa: Hence, I am here open to discussing this.
genesis Zhangsun: I agree Doug, and one thing I would add is that I through PaB I feel I have seen the power of a practice in dealing with problems
genesis Zhangsun: not in a "fix it" type of way
genesis Zhangsun: but rather letting all the possible solutions naturally emerge from the engagement with the experience of direction your attention to the issue
genesis Zhangsun: *directing
genesis Zhangsun: I think it is this type of openess cultivated through a practice on the grassroots individual problem that holds the key to the issue of sustainability
doug Sosa: so prefer to avoid directed attention. The breakthrough for me is the realization that climate for example is as touchable as these cushions.
genesis Zhangsun: not just conferences on the national, global level
genesis Zhangsun: *level v. problem
doug Sosa: Do we notice the snow? Do we notice that while it is "snowing" we arenot cold? Does te body/mind puzzle this?
doug Sosa: Do we not notice the architecture here? Its hints of power and affluence.
doug Sosa: time to open up to all?
Pila Mulligan: I appreciate your thoughts Gen and Doug and feel your ideas are sound, but I wonder if they can resolve the conflict between desire-driven actions (e.g., profit motives) and common sense, in business and government policy for example
genesis Zhangsun: sure Doug
Zen Arado: Hi Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Liza Deischer: hi Ara
Zon Quar: ara
doug Sosa: i believe that common sense is also desire driven, Pila.
genesis Zhangsun: my view is that environmental degradation is a result of disparate impact not just by policy makers but all of us
genesis Zhangsun: I think we are giving the top down approach a good try but it is deadlocked and I think the only chance is from the bottom up
doug Sosa: So here would be a godd PaB moment. do we experience environmental degradation? How, what happens to that experience if we drop concepts, etc.
Zen Arado: We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein
doug Sosa: Maybe by eing more experiential we can find ouselves reframing it.
genesis Zhangsun: yes Zen nice point
doug Sosa: For example, artists have convinced me that no scene - none - aare without beauty.
genesis Zhangsun: I see "progress" or as Pila mentioned "profit oriented" thinking as part of the problem
doug Sosa: how do we experience that motive?
Eos Amaterasu: it helps to experience it in the 90 secs
Eos Amaterasu: 0r 9 secs
genesis Zhangsun: yes Eos good suggestion
Eos Amaterasu: even though that time boundary is corny (relative)
Eos Amaterasu: but it helps
Eos Amaterasu: let 's experience that in the next 90 sec period
doug Sosa: Yes, for example, this place in SL is rather special. Being in special life in RL is very special. do these tell us anything about the profit motive?
doug Sosa: oops, "being in SL in RL is rather pecial"
Eos Amaterasu: I would phrase it this way: why would you, or do you, want anything else beyond what's here, or what you already have?
Eos Amaterasu: experience that...
arabella Ella: Or do we really 'need' all we consume?
arabella Ella: Do we really 'need' anything else at all?
genesis Zhangsun: my approach is not to focus on a specific question like "what does this moment tell us about the profit motive" unless focusing on A question assists you to just "stop"
Eos Amaterasu: experience such 'need'
genesis Zhangsun: my feeling is the "stopping" is powerful enough if one can really do it
Eos Amaterasu: by stopping you get less addicted
doug Sosa: How do we experience that? I notice for example we all sort of crinch when some "jerk" (our perspective) runs through here.
Eos Amaterasu: (exception for philosophy, Ara :-)
arabella Ella: :)
genesis Zhangsun: by stopping we might see that we already have what we need
genesis Zhangsun: and like you said Ara consider that there is no need to consume more
Pila Mulligan: bringing contemplative methods to issues such as sustainability and the economy is not really a new idea -- many of the people deeply involved in those issues have well-established practices
doug Sosa: that sems to me very abstract and packaged. What is the experience? Stop brathing?
--BELL--
arabella Ella: what drives the 'need' in us to consume more than we really 'need'?
doug Sosa: so where would you sleep tonight?
doug Sosa: If we are going to be PaB about these questions we need to open the nut.
Zen Arado: so we are talking about personal change ?
genesis Zhangsun: Pila that sounds very interesting could you say more about the tradition of bring contemplative methods to sustainability?
Pila Mulligan: well, one of the older ones is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen_Institute
doug Sosa: Not me. Persoanl is always part of a larger scen.
arabella Ella: is it possible to 'drop' (reduce in size' our carbon footprint?
genesis Zhangsun: thanks Pila, if you know of anymore please send them to me please :)
Zen Arado: the personal is political
doug Sosa: If many reduced their carbon footprint it would cost many many jobs. We need to be aware of that as a reason people don't do it.
Zen Arado: seems we can can change ourselves but might not have much success in persuading others?
Pila Mulligan: Gen, I guess my point was that they still get stuck in the same ruts
Eos Amaterasu: http://presencing.com http://aliainstitute.org
genesis Zhangsun: could you say more about that :)
genesis Zhangsun: thanks Eos!
Pila Mulligan: the problems are very big :)_
Pila Mulligan: we have a nice planet, but it cannot sustain all that we are doing with it
Eos Amaterasu: work on the perceiver and experiencer of the problem
Pila Mulligan: so how do we solve that problem
Eos Amaterasu: who also happens to be the main agent of the problem
Pila Mulligan: if we do not see the problem
Zen Arado: stop driving cars?
Zen Arado: and going long journeys by plane?
Eos Amaterasu: cars are not sold to be driven
Eos Amaterasu: cars are sold as identity
arabella Ella: the issue of job losses is relevant ... why is it not the case that working hours are not distributed more evenly rather than making people redundant?
Eos Amaterasu: we fear loss of identity, and so buy cars
Zen Arado: Hi Cal
Zon Quar: prevent chinese ppl getting rich ?
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello all!
Zon Quar: Cal
Eos Amaterasu: through PaB, we diminish fear of identity loss
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
Eos Amaterasu: and the car ads have less power
doug Sosa: notice how we get away from experience. I want to make it that ese are not issues *unless we experience them*. And I believe they are right here in the pavaiion, or any other 'space" we might be in.
Zen Arado: so you are going to give up driving?
genesis Zhangsun: or why not lose the start up mentality of optimizing productivity for a shot while and then burnout
doug Sosa: Gen, because right now we have no other model that does not disemploy people.
doug Sosa: So there is no simple answer. It is like pick up sticks.
Zen Arado: so we need better political systems?
genesis Zhangsun: exactly, but that is possible precisely because enough of us are passively agreeing to the current system
arabella Ella: there used to be a model doug but it never materialised ... more leisure time
genesis Zhangsun: who thinks 15 hours workdays are acceptable?
Widget Whiteberry: I own a car in order to get to places I need to go. Which* car I drive is wrapped up in my identity
Eos Amaterasu: exactly
doug Sosa: but hear me, if we stopped, what would be the alternative, how do we get there, how do we protect peple that would be hurt?
Pila Mulligan: my guess is that the problems may not be addressed before they impact us more adversely (a la Saul Alinsky, we deal with what bothers us)
genesis Zhangsun: yes Widget identification is a really key point
genesis Zhangsun: would you like to say more about that?
Zen Arado: American society is designed around the car
Widget Whiteberry: hmm
Zen Arado: you have to change that
Widget Whiteberry: when I was shopping for a car to replace the 12 y/o one I was driving, I went from a Corolla to a Camry
Zen Arado: you would have so much difficulty functioning without the car
arabella Ella: if we take education ... catch em young ... to be one of the keys ... could it be possible to educate young people to 'drop' the excessive materialist culture we live in?
Widget Whiteberry: I put in a sun roof as a gift to myself
doug Sosa: American society is designed around the car. we can't solve this at that level. the PaB approach is to back off a little and actualy let our experience be, and notice it.
Widget Whiteberry: I justified the bigger car, because I thought I'd have more people in my car
Widget Whiteberry: sorry, I think I'm on another thread
Widget Whiteberry: no worries
Zen Arado: my fault sorry
Liza Deischer: I think Widget, youre just decribing what a lot of people feel or do
Liza Deischer: even if we want to change
genesis Zhangsun: we all have things, cars, etc but it is our identification with those things which keeps us from holding them so tightly
arabella Ella: UAE society was centered around the car too but last September they introduced a new metro in Dubai and they are using all sorts of incentives to get more people to use it
Liza Deischer: it seems to be very diffiult to let go
Widget Whiteberry: from?
genesis Zhangsun: leaving less room for the space to contemplate how they own us
genesis Zhangsun: when we believe we own them
Qt Core: it may seem rude, but.... how much sleep people are willing to lose to go from driving to public transportation to the daily job commute ?
Widget Whiteberry: rude?
Calvino Rabeni: shoten working hours then
Zen Arado: the convenience of the car is what makes them so hard to get ppl to stop using them or even reduce their mileage
arabella Ella: depends on traffic Qt ... it may be faster using public transport if it is efficient
arabella Ella: or parking problems
Qt Core: big if ;-)
arabella Ella: yes ... BIG 'if'
genesis Zhangsun: exactly- so the problems are systemic and structural so how do we deal that on the individual level
--BELL--
doug Sosa: I am going to be a bit severe. The conversation is supposed to be about PaB and sustainability. The first issue is, is their any experiential connction between us an sustainability? I beleive there is, but it takes effort to get out of the way and experience that.
Widget Whiteberry: when I go to NYC, I prefer the subway. I don't have a viable public transportation option where I live
Pila Mulligan: ideas spin around like dervishes, but people tend to act based upon what they see as necessary ... when problems begin to affect us personally, we will find it more necessary to act on them ... maybe our contemplation can guide us to be prepared for that need
Widget Whiteberry: ok, Doug, help me to focus on that
genesis Zhangsun: :) there is a 90 sec pause
Pila Mulligan: :) oops
doug Sosa: I'll try. As we sit here we exprience many things. may we don't talk about much, like the body language and sexuality of the people in the circle. but we very aware of these. In the same way i think
Zen Arado: some of us are addicted to the car !
doug Sosa: we experience this space - attractive, special, but what actually? It is not to guess but to actually experience and explore.
doug Sosa: i think if we do that we will come up to experiences of power, style, architecture, money, prstige, identity - no need to specualate. they are in our experience.
Widget Whiteberry: and then what, Doug?
Zen Arado: explore your environment - how it forces you to use a car - than think how to change the environment?
doug Sosa: no. first slow down.
Pila Mulligan: Doug, for most of us the connction with sustainability is intellectual at present, not yet experiential
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, how to make it experiential?
Eos Amaterasu: slowing down, and dropping, can shift the framing, or at least drop initial probably premature framings
doug Sosa: right pila, or so it seems. i think we DO experience it, right here in this space.
Pila Mulligan: wait
Zen Arado: I gave up driving 6 years ago
Pila Mulligan: we will probably expereince it more by just waiting
genesis Zhangsun: slowing down, waiting, stopping, dropping, seeing
genesis Zhangsun: appreciating :)
genesis Zhangsun: what we have instead of what we don't have
genesis Zhangsun: and to really see what it is we have
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
arabella Ella: appreciating the fresh air on a car-free day in europe ... as happens in my country once a year
Liza Deischer: that is easier done sitting here on a pillow, then to remind ourselves in our dialy lives
genesis Zhangsun: and then that there is no one there to have anything....that we are the eviroment
arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
genesis Zhangsun: hey Yaku
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
Pila Mulligan: what else can we do?
genesis Zhangsun: I agree Liza and why a practice I feel is important
arabella Ella: appreciating the peacefulness and serenity of not using power during a power cut
genesis Zhangsun: Pila, tell others :)
genesis Zhangsun: ?
Eos Amaterasu: societal practices of dropping, such as Ara's "car -free - day"
genesis Zhangsun: nice Eos
Eos Amaterasu: turn off your power day
Qt Core: appreciating your home on weekends instead of HAVING to go out of town every weekend... and going at wor on mondays tired
Liza Deischer: my experience is that doesn't give us a real experience
Liza Deischer: really understanding what is going on
Liza Deischer: what we really need, or don't need
Liza Deischer: it is al superficial
Liza Deischer: im afraid
arabella Ella: appreciating the value of home grown produce like fruit and veg rather than buying stuff which is out of season and comes from half way around the world
genesis Zhangsun: and what would be less superficial Liza?
Pila Mulligan: some ideas: drive less, grow vegetables, adjust sleep to natural light cycles, limit your consumption of stuff, decrease your need for more dependence on distant commodities
doug Sosa: You want unemployed pilots who then seek military jobs?
Liza Deischer: well I agree it starts with experience
Eos Amaterasu: you're jumping to conclusions, doug
Liza Deischer: it starts with becoming closer to oneself
Zen Arado: and recycle waste of course
Liza Deischer: but i, myself find it very difficult to look throught my identifications
arabella Ella: I disagree with you concerning unemployment doug as it had sorted itself out when europe became less based on manual labour for manufacturing for example
Pila Mulligan: :)
Zen Arado: as we all are now doing
Liza Deischer: if im in the 'real world'
doug Sosa: No. I know such people. And I read history about what unemploment does to people. three commericla pilots I know are quitting because their pay has decreased so radically.
Liza Deischer: Im afraid I dont have a real answer to that
genesis Zhangsun: yes so its about experience and shared experience- not just experiencing for ourselves but then sharing those experiences
Liza Deischer: yes, but how?
Calvino Rabeni: A big part of it is education about being sociable. Consumption is tied to a hunger for connection, to fill a gap in the soul
arabella Ella: each paradigm shift creates new types of jobs after all
Eos Amaterasu: the commercial pilot's jet plane was just a geam in the eye when he was born
Eos Amaterasu: gleam
Liza Deischer: yes, i think so too ara
Eos Amaterasu: experience that
doug Sosa: So my idea is that one way to deal with climate issues is to slow down and experience what is experienceable, and see it things begin to look a little different.
Widget Whiteberry: hmm, I said I would play hostess from 2-4 and wonder if it's ok for me to be here. Anyone know?
Liza Deischer: but it is also hard on people to change
genesis Zhangsun: nice point Calvino, so we consume to connect- can we provide other ways to connect that don't involve consumption
genesis Zhangsun: I suggest we all move there
Calvino Rabeni: Break the cycle - technology breeds alienation, alienation breeds consumption
genesis Zhangsun: to the party in 4 minutes
Liza Deischer: difficult to except your in the 'middle of a crisis'
Liza Deischer: and that we realluy need to do something
arabella Ella: or consumption breeds alienation
Eos Amaterasu: (speaking of needs, must make dinner - will join u at the party)
Eos Amaterasu: l8tr
arabella Ella: bye Eos
Liza Deischer: bye Eos
doug Sosa: remind me were is party?
Zen Arado: bye Eos
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the education must show other ways to connect, to individuate, to create
genesis Zhangsun: what about educating the public about the 9 second practice :)
Calvino Rabeni: the econonomic machine has co-opted basic functions of being human
Calvino Rabeni: and to take them back, is part of the solution
arabella Ella: create a paradigm shift in education
genesis Zhangsun: what if everyone did a 9 second practice?
genesis Zhangsun: EVERYONE :)
Widget Whiteberry: Party in front of the Hall, I think
doug Sosa: thanks.
Zen Arado: but we are deciding what is best for others - they might not like that
Calvino Rabeni: what if the 9-second pause was built into every TV commercial break :)
Widget Whiteberry: Calvino ++
doug Sosa: i think we needs must stop.
genesis Zhangsun: I love that Calvino
Liza Deischer: I agre Cal, it explains why it is so hard to change
genesis Zhangsun: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bieup/127/229/103
genesis Zhangsun: that is the slurl for the party!
genesis Zhangsun: Please everyone join us and lets keep discussing there!
Calvino Rabeni: be there and/or be square :)
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: no surely Zen people must choose for themselves :)
Liza Deischer: well how important is it, when we split up for a party?
genesis Zhangsun: but perhaps people just don't know that its possible :)
genesis Zhangsun: Liza :) we don't take ourselves that seriously here...that kind of seriousness might be part of the problem
Zen Arado: lots of political issues here though
Liza Deischer: I know what you mean
arabella Ella: education is key ... for example teaching people to re-cycle waste could easily create new jobs
genesis Zhangsun: :) see you all there!
Calvino Rabeni: So, it will work to - look like you're having a very good time - while doing low-consumption activities
Liza Deischer: and im not very willing myself to stay
Calvino Rabeni: because people pay attention
Liza Deischer: byt it is part of being sperficial
Liza Deischer: you touch it and you go away
arabella Ella: dropping the influence the media has on our consumption patterns ... or the influence of peer pressure
Liza Deischer: you touch it and you back off again
Zen Arado: it feels a bit superficial to me too Liza
Zen Arado: a bit idealistic
Calvino Rabeni: Touch what exactly, Liza?
arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Liza?
Liza Deischer: we sometimes touch good experiences
Liza Deischer: or good subjects
Liza Deischer: but to be really working with it
Liza Deischer: letting it grow
Liza Deischer: takes more time sometimes
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: and more reflection too perhaps
Liza Deischer: yes
Zen Arado: we should keep to one topic longer perhaps
Liza Deischer: we share something and dropp it
Zen Arado: and go into it more deeply
Liza Deischer: or approach it differently
Pila Mulligan: I think Doug and Gen want to keep this topic going as a theme session
Pila Mulligan: from time to time
Calvino Rabeni: That would be good wouldn't it - to stay and go deep sometimes
Liza Deischer: I need to say, that I dont have a good answer myself :-)
Liza Deischer: yes I think so
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I believe that Liza
Liza Deischer: and find a way to get to the experiental level
Liza Deischer: believe what?
Calvino Rabeni: that you don't have a good answer :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: hmm, I dont know, it is hard to give it form
Liza Deischer: (Idont know if that is English) :-)
Liza Deischer: to give it shape
arabella Ella: I sometimes wonder why Europe seems to be better at environmental and sustainability issues than the US is ... reflects ...
Calvino Rabeni: Perfect english
Calvino Rabeni: ara, history and geography
arabella Ella: more specifically?
Zen Arado: me too
arabella Ella: (not that Europe is perfect ... far from it)
Calvino Rabeni: US never had dense cities in the past, Europe has for a long time
Zen Arado: true too
Zen Arado: yes it developed to suit the automobile
Calvino Rabeni: The uncolonized, rural continent became part of the "Tao" of US
Yakuzza Lethecus: they have more space to keep it invisible so we see it earlier when we mess things up :)
Calvino Rabeni: and dependent on first the train, then the auto
Calvino Rabeni: to connect across space
arabella Ella: then the plane
Liza Deischer: building things
Calvino Rabeni: Mass transit requires density to work well
Liza Deischer: wanting to develop
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i gonna take a look at the party
arabella Ella: agree Yaku
Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
arabella Ella: (about space ... and about the party too!)
arabella Ella: cya there!
arabella Ella: bye
Zen Arado: bye Yaku
Aubergine Mint: BYE
Liza Deischer: bye Ara
Liza Deischer: bye Aubergine
Calvino Rabeni: Imagine cars were needed in SL and cost energy
Calvino Rabeni: no teleporting
Calvino Rabeni: it would cause a similar problem here
Calvino Rabeni: to the one in the US
Calvino Rabeni: too much space
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: but maybe techonology holds part of the answer
Zon Quar: c u
Zen Arado: perhaps SL is part of the solution
Liza Deischer: soon the most of us will wor from home
Zen Arado: ppl can stay at home and use an avatar
Zen Arado: happening even at present
Qt Core: telecommuting for most jobs//// and park and gym for not going too obese ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: That is a future scenario - work in virtual reality; party with your neighbors
Qt Core: or just be easily asocial ;)
Calvino Rabeni: that won't work for the majority
Liza Deischer: yes QT, i agree, at the moment it is not the answer yet
Calvino Rabeni: and probably not a balanced model of humanness, just one important part of it
Liza Deischer: and I wonder what all these identities in so many worlds is doing to us
Calvino Rabeni: worth watching carefully
Zen Arado: yes I wonder too
Calvino Rabeni: there are the naysayers and the yea-sayers about that issue
Liza Deischer: sometimes i think that for a lot of people, they loose parts of identity instead of gaining new opportunities
Calvino Rabeni: Lost how where?
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: you can jump form one identity to another, over and over again
Liza Deischer: getting even more busy
Liza Deischer: but what does that mean for our experiences?
Liza Deischer: get they more scattered all over the place
Liza Deischer: I wonder
Zen Arado: I wonder what you gain from being physicall present with friends?
Zen Arado: apart fro close relationships
Liza Deischer: can rlationships get close on sl
Liza Deischer: really close
Qt Core: a richer comunication channel ?
Liza Deischer: even if there isnt any physical things going on
Zen Arado: only thing missing is touch
Liza Deischer: vibration of the voice
Liza Deischer: non-verbal expressions
Qt Core: the sharing of food
Liza Deischer: I dont say it is aa bad thing
Zen Arado: well you can use voice even if not in a large group
Liza Deischer: because I wouldnt be here if I thought so
Liza Deischer: and i find it very interesting to see what it means to 'be' an avatar
Liza Deischer: it really showed me new aspects of myself
Liza Deischer: but I think there are donwsides too
Calvino Rabeni: people say that, of course it is true, but they take RL and its potentials for granted
Zen Arado: what are the downsides?
Liza Deischer: it is different discussing items with you here, then working with people while people are doings things I dont like
Liza Deischer: picking there nose for instant :-)
Zen Arado: so it is still unrealistic
Zen Arado: I don't seem to get close to ppl in SL
Calvino Rabeni: SL only seems "cool" because of its relative newness
Liza Deischer: to me its got a good and a bad side
Calvino Rabeni: which makes people think freshly
Zen Arado: not as in RL
Liza Deischer: true
Calvino Rabeni: but it won't last, because it is relative to the newness of their subjective response to it
Calvino Rabeni: when it "gets old" then there will be troubles
Liza Deischer: or it changes in something different
Zen Arado: you can always make the transition to RL
Zen Arado: many here have done that
Zen Arado: retreats
Calvino Rabeni: One theory - the desire for violent media movies and games, is in a sense due to NOT ENOUGH contact of RL, because of so much technology
Zen Arado: I met a woman here and know her in RL now
Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, it is a self-reinforcing cycle
Calvino Rabeni: This theory will not be popular among those who like and identify with technology and all the newness it brings constantly
Zen Arado: I think present movies like Transformers are absolute rubbish
Liza Deischer: I know, but i think it is more what Cal said before Calvino Rabeni: the econonomic machine has co-opted basic functions of being human
Zen Arado: and I like technology
Calvino Rabeni: The newness is a counterfeit
Zen Arado: mass media has really dumbed down
Calvino Rabeni: Technology is not built to last - it is built to be obsolete, in order to keep the sales cycle going
Zen Arado: I want to see a reeal story with good acting
Calvino Rabeni: Thus, "newness" is part of the product to be sold
Zen Arado: maybe we worship technology too much
Zen Arado: losing our humanity
Calvino Rabeni: The system would slow down a lot without that artificial emphasis on newness
Liza Deischer: yes and we jump from one newness into another newness
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, never satisfied. Always feeling incompletee
Liza Deischer: not longer realising what we really do
Zen Arado: and always new models coming out
Calvino Rabeni: Yes. I like technology, but that is the dark side of it
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I think I will go to party now - I am running short on tim
Liza Deischer: ok, bye Cal
Calvino Rabeni: time, which is same in RL too :)
Liza Deischer: and im going home
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: No virtual time, yet, apparently
Liza Deischer: havinga headache
Zen Arado: maybe I will drop in too
Calvino Rabeni: OK, good talking to you Liza,
Liza Deischer: same here
Calvino Rabeni: Zen and QT also
Calvino Rabeni: See you later
Liza Deischer: see you
Zen Arado: thanks
Qt Core: coming to the party too, bye liza then
Zen Arado: see you
Zen Arado: bye

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