2009.12.07 19:00 - Piet Hein and Wu-Wei

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, taking over from Fox.

Given that I had trouble logging in, and then crashed again, this time I did not add any comments.

doug Sosa: hi calvino
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Doug. I had my attention on the other monitor - some PAB materials.
Calvino Rabeni: How ae you?
doug Sosa: ok. kind ofshock about copenhagen, the intensity.
doug Sosa: Is calvino a hint that you likehiswriting?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like writing, and although I started witha scientfic outlook, I've been cultivating a literary way of looking at things.
doug Sosa: slow connection..
doug Sosa: i too have been trying to move towards literatureand its ways.
Calvino Rabeni: Many are.
doug Sosa: So who are some masters?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know! There are some pioneers, and I like to think, a whole new world of amateurs.
Calvino Rabeni: The way social trends grow is very broad based.
doug Sosa: i'd love to see the wholesociety movetowards the arts.
Calvino Rabeni: And not defined by recognized standards. I think it is a kind of paradigm change.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same here.
doug Sosa: but reading war and peace, or calvino, is quite different from most new writing.
doug Sosa: Interesting, the snow. it snowed here today, very rare. not sticking but beautiful through the trees.
Pema Pera: Hi Doug and Calvino!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, so is sitting in a lodge with a traditional shaman, for instance
doug Sosa: hi, don't see you yet.
Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Pema!
doug Sosa: there. just saying snowed here in sonoma today. and we were talking about newwriters.
Calvino Rabeni: Kind of, about a paradigm shift towards narrative as a worldview. Anyway I've been thinking ofthat and talking to friends
Calvino Rabeni: Paradigms are somewhat peculiar.
doug Sosa: And so many copenhagen conversations today.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: What is the "story" there?
doug Sosa: That we are in a real mess, perhspa unrecoverable.
doug Sosa: But people are not acting as if. Strange mental states. worth observing closely.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: yes
doug Sosa: pet, I've beeen tryingthe 9 sec in the middle of giving speeches.
doug Sosa: piet..
Calvino Rabeni: P crashed perhaps
doug Sosa: yes, seems like.
doug Sosa: calvino, where do you live and work?
Calvino Rabeni: Seattle, USA. Currently not working. Bad economy, lots of free time.
doug Sosa: ah yes.
Calvino Rabeni: And you?
Calvino Rabeni: WB Pema
doug Sosa: jumpy train or.. piet?
Pema Pera: (sorry, SL is very unstable for me today -- took met ten minutes to get in at first, and as you saw, after five minutes I crashed again)
doug Sosa: I live in sonoma north of SF, used to live on whidbey.
Calvino Rabeni: Very close, whidbey
Pema Pera: (no, at home, with supposedly very fast fiber optics connections -- must be the trans pacific bottleneck?)
Calvino Rabeni: Amazing it works though
doug Sosa: in japan?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: all SL servers are in the US I understand
Calvino Rabeni: I think in SF
Calvino Rabeni: OR are they spread around
doug Sosa: How are the japanese seeming to cope mindfully with copenhagen and all it represents?
Pema Pera: no single answer to that, Doug
Pema Pera: like to the question how the US folks cope with it
doug Sosa: Inward reflection, outer blame (such as the US, China?)
Calvino Rabeni: Remember, the media exaggerates trivial aspects of issues
Calvino Rabeni: Then the activists worry too much
Pema Pera: the Japanese take it seriously, sure
doug Sosa: In the us most seem (i do get around and talk a lot) to be awaare, concerned, but behind on the facts, and not facingthat actions will happen.
Pema Pera: and pragmatically: they are happy to make profit with eco-friendly products, like cars, and solar energy
Calvino Rabeni: You can't spoil the "reputation" of someting like climate change, as if i were a minister caught having an affair.
Pema Pera: indeed, as I mentioned the other day "if only climate change had a mustache . . . "
doug Sosa: wel, climate change is not a constant mistress :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to read americans, because he media is mostly propaganda
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't give a feel for wht is in peoples hearts
Calvino Rabeni: I am not sure, bu I thnk there is less disconnect of that type in othercountries
Pema Pera: (btw, if I crash once again, I probably won't try to come back in again -- I did claim the chat log do, so we are all set for this session; it seems we don't have a guardian-on-call)
doug Sosa: And I need to go to dinner at the bell.
Calvino Rabeni: Fox would be scheduled GOC
Calvino Rabeni: But the schedule shuffled a bit lately I think
Pema Pera: yes, I don't remember whether she sent an email asking for a replacement
Pema Pera: that is possible too
Pema Pera: in general, when we get messages like "the session hasn't been claimed" in green, it is a good idea to claim the session
doug Sosa: I no longer know when i can be here.
Pema Pera: posting it is a matter of one or two minutes work; adding comments takes longer, but that is optional, especially if you are not the goc
Calvino Rabeni: I recently came across another Piet H, a poet of small zen-like verses.
Pema Pera: Piet Hein?
Calvino Rabeni: Amusing and apropos of thisgroup. Yes.
--BELL--
doug Sosa: bye
Calvino Rabeni: This seems to be about wu wei
Calvino Rabeni:
     RS BREVIS
     There is
     one art,
     no more,
     no less:
     to do
     all things
     with art-
     lessness.
Pema Pera: sounds like Chuang Tzu !
Calvino Rabeni: yes, funny
Calvino Rabeni: And here is one on Play and maybe Being
Calvino Rabeni:
     THE ETERNAL TWINS
     Taking fun
      as simply fun
     and earnestness
      in earnest
     shows how thoroughly
      thou none
     of the two discernest.
Pema Pera: also a bit Emily Dickinson like
Calvino Rabeni: true
Pema Pera: I really enjoyed reading the Sunday 8 am log
Pema Pera: about pushing a river :-)
Calvino Rabeni: How so Pema
Calvino Rabeni: That issupposed to be a metaphor for non -weu-wei
Pema Pera: but perhaps it could be an extra subtle form of wu-wei . . . ?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Pema Pera: it depends, as always, whethere there is a pusher
Pema Pera: if there isn't, it is wu wei
Calvino Rabeni: Can I ask you - your piece "life as a laboratory" - do you still feel the same?
Calvino Rabeni: That is sensible
Pema Pera: basically, yes; was there something that you thought I might by now feel different about?
Calvino Rabeni: Not at all, it is just that laboratiries are somewhat pushy places
Pema Pera: (there are two pieces: an article I published with that title, and a longer manuscript, only online)
Calvino Rabeni: As a metaphor for people
Calvino Rabeni: They often resist creating a discipline to follow
Pema Pera: yes, you're not the only one making that connection -- clearly, every metaphor has its drawbacks :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I meant the longer one
Calvino Rabeni: with the response piece by Turner
Pema Pera: I see "lab" as a place to do open-minded and open-ended research
Pema Pera: ah yes, that's the longer one
Pema Pera: five years ago
Pema Pera: time to write something better, after all my PaB experience :-)
Calvino Rabeni: The response was nicely candid, I liked it
Pema Pera: yes
Calvino Rabeni: How would you chang the emphasis, do you know the diection of "better"
Pema Pera: hmmmm, more wu-wei for one thing
Pema Pera: and in general, having more life experience, fewer sharp edges I guess -- milder?
Calvino Rabeni: How would you "do wu wei" in writing?
Pema Pera: writing is an expression of how you are at that moment
Calvino Rabeni: I think, narrative is partof the style for tat.
Calvino Rabeni: that
Pema Pera: so while learning to be more in wu wei I s'pose that would show up in writing
Calvino Rabeni: I think so - it is one of the things I'm thinking about facilitation
Pema Pera: also I'm learning to be a bit more concise :-)
Pema Pera: as I tried to be in the TSK workshop, a few hours ago
Pema Pera: yes, I'm eager to hear more about your facilitation
Pema Pera: and "informal co-mentoring" especially, another point you mentioned Sunday morning
Calvino Rabeni: I just want to push the idea aroun in group here. and see what emerges
Calvino Rabeni: I will put up a reference page, on the site.
Pema Pera: so this was a 3-year experiment, if I can call it that, near where you live? With how many people? Still ongoing?
Calvino Rabeni: No that is something else.
Calvino Rabeni: There are several groups I am in that think about this subject and dry to work it into their practice
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: But what I was referring to with the 3 years, was the conscious decision t cultivate those conection
Calvino Rabeni: I had other goups, that I was part of, since about 1990 that had communication and facilitation as a sub text with a contemplative qualiy
Pema Pera: clearly there are many parallels between our trajectories: I could say exactly the same :)
Calvino Rabeni: It has actually been going on since the Human Potential Movement of the late 60's in USA, and hat came after
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the same thing comes up in different places
Calvino Rabeni: Most recently I pay attention to it in storytelling and performance.
Pema Pera: the notion of a Zeitgeist is fascinating, a "spirit of the times"
Pema Pera: something in the air
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is shifting towards (narrative, consciousness, subjectivity, etc.)
Pema Pera: it has expected this decade to be more open and freewheeling, like the roaring twenties and then the sixties
Pema Pera: I thought after another forty years . . . time enough in between for children to rebel against their parents
Pema Pera: but maybe the cycle is 45 years; it was the late sixties after all that was the rebellious time
Pema Pera: so it may be just about to take off again :)
Calvino Rabeni: There might be a cycle of that duration.
Pema Pera: look how materialistic the eighties were -- and the forties was the second world war of course
Pema Pera: one thing that is very encouraging is to see how young people are getting more and more conscious about sustainability
Calvino Rabeni: Possibly a generation is needed for a significant change in values
Calvino Rabeni: or much more
Calvino Rabeni: ALthough the effect of media is interesting
Pema Pera: sure, there is a longer trend, of course, but the generational cycles are fascinating too. I have the impression that the 1880s were pretty wild too.
Pema Pera: Hi Bene!
Calvino Rabeni: History of ideas is interesting.
Calvino Rabeni: WHen considering the idea of th social values behind them
Pema Pera: Hi Fox!
Benedizione Vita: hello all
Fox Monacular: sorry I'm late:)
Benedizione Vita: my lovely snow
Pema Pera: np Fox :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I think now there is still an echo of Einstein's time.
Fox Monacular: I completely forgot... was at my parent's place talking about the wedding
Pema Pera: (I claimed the chat log, shall I post it, Fox?)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello Fox, Bene
Pema Pera: sounds like an important thing to do!
Fox Monacular: thanks, Pema
Fox Monacular: !
Pema Pera: when will it happen?
Fox Monacular: next friday
Pema Pera: wow, and you're still here? Amazing!
Fox Monacular: hehe
Pema Pera: I presume / hope you won't be here a week from now!
Fox Monacular: it's fine, it will be an informal party in an undergroung russian club
Benedizione Vita: in russia?
Fox Monacular: well, not really... we still have a cranky breastfed baby in the house
Fox Monacular: in canada
Pema Pera: this time of year in Canada underground sounds great :)
Benedizione Vita: yes, cozy :)
Benedizione Vita: it would be great to be in a nice underground right now
Fox Monacular: hehe, it's a big loft in a very shady building... so at first our guests may hesitate to enter... but inside it's really cool
Fox Monacular: it's finally snowing here! so cool, baby was very impressed
Pema Pera: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: THe baby is your teacher? :)
Fox Monacular: oh, definitely!
Fox Monacular: PaB practice comes very handy:)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!
Fox Monacular: Hi Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: I know my mother had a lot of theoies about human nture- until she met me!
Paradise Tennant: Hello Everyone .. My apologies for being so late.. Rl Buddhist class tonight :)
Pema Pera: Good seeing you, Paradise, but alas, time for me to have a late lunch in RL
Calvino Rabeni: What style isthat, Paradise?
Benedizione Vita: goodnight pema
Calvino Rabeni: BYe, Pema
Pema Pera: bye for now
Paradise Tennant: :) waves at the departing Pema
Fox Monacular: bon appetit, Pema
Benedizione Vita: or rather good afternoon I s'pose
Paradise Tennant: Have been studying with Rigpa .. Sogyal Rinpoche ..but lately listening to lots of teachings by Dongsar Rinpoche
Benedizione Vita: I should probably go play some more RL myself
Benedizione Vita: goodnight everyone :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
Fox Monacular: bye Bene
Paradise Tennant: good nite bene :)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Fox Monacular: I'm sorry, I'll have to go too...
Paradise Tennant: :) good nite fox :)
Calvino Rabeni: How does the log work, will pema get it?
Paradise Tennant: yes
Fox Monacular: have to count how many people are coming - we're cooking ourselves
Calvino Rabeni: good night!
Fox Monacular: yes, he said so
Paradise Tennant: it will be sent via email
Fox Monacular: good night Calvino, Paradise
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: did you have a good session
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for a while it was only 2, then everyone showed up
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: makes it interesting .. the ebb and flow of departures and arrivals
Calvino Rabeni: What is the informal ritual ofthe buddhist group?
Paradise Tennant: hmm well very small group just three people and one dog
Calvino Rabeni: The dog has buddha-nature?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: hmm keep telling him to listen closely and he can come back as a human have his own dog and go for all the walks he likes
Calvino Rabeni: do you have a special place to meet?
Calvino Rabeni: Tell him he can have 100 hot togs
Calvino Rabeni: hot dogs
Paradise Tennant: yes a temple ... we make tea ..lay out candles incense say and opening prayer meditate .. then listen to dvids of various sessions held
Paradise Tennant: so we drink tea ask questions .. then the best part the dog like .. is the walk around a part of town he only goes to once a week :)
Calvino Rabeni: For a while I thought of finding a group like that
Paradise Tennant: yes hard to find the right fit sometimes
Paradise Tennant: I have never been particularly religous but I always quite liked reading about buddhism
Paradise Tennant: when I decided to study it in a more formal way .. I found most of the groups .. alittle too intense ..too rigid
Calvino Rabeni: I understand that
Paradise Tennant: this one suits me very well .. very laid back
Paradise Tennant: do you have a formal practise
Calvino Rabeni: :) yes and no. I have many practices but don't do them formally.
Calvino Rabeni: My life is my practice
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: And to some degree the lives of people I know
Calvino Rabeni: In the past I had formal periods
Calvino Rabeni: I have friends in groups who like the formality
Paradise Tennant: I have never really had a formal period ... my dad wouild take me to quaker meetings but they are really kind of different .. not exactly formal
Paradise Tennant: yes I have friends of all persuasions
Paradise Tennant: interesting aspect of sl you interreact with so many people so far away sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: Many, and some of them have multiple persuasions
Calvino Rabeni: Everything is overlapping more and more it seems
Paradise Tennant: i have suffi friends now .. I doubt I would meet a suffi in rl :)
Calvino Rabeni: Techniques get assimilated into the culture
Paradise Tennant: yes
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: are they moslem sufis, or secular followers of sufi philosophies?
Paradise Tennant: when you had formal periods what did you study ?
Paradise Tennant: hmm both I think
Paradise Tennant: one is more philospophical and the other I believe a devout moslem .. living in cairo
Paradise Tennant: very hot in cairo .. told me one day the ac was down and their office was 120 degrees :)
Calvino Rabeni: I had teachers and schools that were not orthodox. There was some zen, some somatic psychology, some contemplative psychotherapy, some internal (esoteric) martial arts, some Taoism, some shamanic stuff - a variety
Calvino Rabeni: I studied academic stuff on comparative religions, integral philosophy, and other intellectual suff in additon t the practices
Paradise Tennant: wow you have had a very broad base :)
Paradise Tennant: how has that changed how you live your life ?
Calvino Rabeni: Been around awhile, had the interest since I was young.
Calvino Rabeni: Nothing changed, but I have had different phases.
Calvino Rabeni: I used to be intellectual and rationalistic.
Calvino Rabeni: And I used to want persona liberation
Calvino Rabeni: *personal
Calvino Rabeni: Etc. perhaps you know what I mean about the last thing.
Paradise Tennant: ideas are the most powerful force of change ... there are I think.. everyone you are exposed leaves some kind of impression
Paradise Tennant: every thought we have changes us really
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, especially if paying attention.
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: very much so ! the really paying attention part is what I try to focus on most these days :)
Calvino Rabeni: My relationship to knowledge shifted, I remember that happening.
Calvino Rabeni: (You were asking what changed, or something like that)
Calvino Rabeni: BRB
Calvino Rabeni: here again
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: you thought of knowledge differently
Paradise Tennant: seeing its limitations ?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I used to believe that knowledge was like a material that people (me) had to acquire.
Calvino Rabeni: Like putting something into a container.
Calvino Rabeni: The notion of the "mind" as a blanks slate or empty container.
Calvino Rabeni: And then when young, it seems like a lot of work to become educated
Calvino Rabeni: by filling the container.
Paradise Tennant: nods
Calvino Rabeni: And that knowledge was personal.
Calvino Rabeni: BUt now it seems more like, knowledge is inside and outside, and not personal.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it is transpersonal.
Paradise Tennant: lol yes I know what you mean .. sometimes .. when I have a good idea . I wonder where it came from..whose it was originally :) learning is sharing .. real learning moves you beyond you :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I remember a bit if struggle with ego, to lt it in.
Calvino Rabeni: Let it in, I meant.
Calvino Rabeni: LIking people is very important I found, because people bring knowledge
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: and prejudices block being able to receive
Paradise Tennant: often will sit on bus say .. and look around and think of the amazing volume of understanding .. experience .. surrounding me on the hoof so to speak
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Paradise Tennant: quite overwhelming sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: same here. sometimes I would go to a busy cafe to meditate with that.
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: a very good thought to meditate on
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise, I must join someone for dinner now
Calvino Rabeni: Good sitting with you
Paradise Tennant: ok .. i need to go too
Paradise Tennant: getting late
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Paradise Tennant: thank you kindly cal big wave from toronto :)