2009.12.14 13:00 - Habits and openness

The guardian for this session was Stim Morane, and comments are his.

Eden Haiku: Hi Stim!
Stim Morane: Hello Eden, Liza
Liza Deischer: hi stim, hi eden
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Eden Haiku: Hello Liza, Bolonath!
Stim Morane: Hi Bolonath
Liza Deischer: hi zen
Liza Deischer: hi blonath
Liza Deischer: bolonath
Zen Arado: Hi Everyone
arabella Ella: Hiya
Eden Haiku: Zen ;- I can't see your cup of tea yet...
Liza Deischer: hi ara
Stim Morane: Hi Zen, arabella
Eden Haiku: Hiya Ara!
Zen Arado: just had one in RL :)
Eden Haiku: ;-)
arabella Ella: Hiya Stim Liza Zen Eden Bolo
Zen Arado: taking everything a long time to rez for me :(
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
arabella Ella: Hiya Qt
Eden Haiku: hello!
Qt Core: hi all
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Bolonath Crystal: nmaste qt, gaya, cal
Liza Deischer: hi Gaya
Zen Arado: Hi Qt, Cal
arabella Ella: hey Calvinbo u r heavy
arabella Ella: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eden Haiku: Gaya ;-)
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Qt, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: H Liza, Zen and everyone :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Gaya
arabella Ella: Calvino ... halloooo .... u r heavy ... he he
Bolonath Crystal: *g*
arabella Ella: ty
Calvino Rabeni: ah better - must have leapt at same time to the zafu :)
arabella Ella: perhaps you were still rezzing and could not see Ara
arabella Ella: happens to all of us
Calvino Rabeni: Yes,it looked blank at the time, heh

Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: would any of you like to discuss your PaB experience? Questions, observation, etc?
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Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: ok ... how does one keep the same practice fresh?
Stim Morane: Good q
Stim Morane: Answers?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: does it need to be fresh?
Stim Morane: :)
Zen Arado: boredom is good to work with?
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess what I mean is sometimes it becomes a habit.
Stim Morane: Yes
Gaya Ethaniel doesn't get bored very easily these days :D
Bolonath Crystal: for me it is still fresh anyway. but i think it will become easier if it turns to be a habit
Zen Arado: the ego is always looking for distractions I think
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Gaya Ethaniel: So when it is easier, it means it has turned into a habit perhaps?
Zen Arado: same with meditation

Gaya Ethaniel: I don't think I understand what you said well Bolonath ^^;;;
Bolonath Crystal: sorry, i try again
Gaya Ethaniel: ty :)
Bolonath Crystal: when the exercise becomes a habit, it will probably be easier to perform and maybe even have a better effect
Stim Morane: the word "habit" is ambiguous here ... it could mean something that has become found in a way that is natural for you or something that has become represented by the ordinary sense of self, with its unawakeness and limited motives.
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Liza Deischer: hi yaku
arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
Stim Morane: Which do you mean Bolonath?hi Yakuzza
Qt Core: hi yaku
Bolonath Crystal: "habit" in the meaning of "samskara"
Eden Haiku: Hi Yaku!
Bolonath Crystal: so rather the first one you mentioned, stim
Zen Arado: habitual patterns?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello syros :) Welcome to PaB, please feel free to join us.
syros Soulstar: hi everyone:)
Zen Arado: Hi Syros
Liza Deischer: hi syros
Stim Morane: yes, Bolonath. So you are really referring to a traditional Hindu interpretation of samskara.
Gaya Ethaniel: I will IM syros for introduction in case s/he's new here :)
Bolonath Crystal nods
Stim Morane: good
Stim Morane: I just ask because it means other things in other traditions
Bolonath Crystal: oh, i didn't know

Stim Morane: by the way, neat cat
Gaya Ethaniel listens :)
Stim Morane: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :D thanks Stim.
Stim Morane: i like the minimalist tail
Gaya Ethaniel: Me too :)
Eden Haiku: Nice yellow glow.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick, nabend bertram :)
Liza Deischer: hi mick, bertram
Stim Morane: one pixel right, left or center makes the gesture
Bertram Jacobus: guten abend, hello all(e) :-)
Stim Morane: Hi Mick, Bertram
Bolonath Crystal: namaste bert, mick
Eden Haiku: HelloMickorod, Bertram ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
Zen Arado: Hi Mick, Bert
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick, Bert
Gaya Ethaniel: Stim puleez, tell us more about habits by different traditions.
Gaya Ethaniel: Puleeeez :)
Bertram Jacobus: policeeee ?
Stim Morane: samskara means negative things in Buddhism, but the Hindu meaning is very apt here
Stim Morane: so let's stick with that
Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samskara
Stim Morane: by negative, I mean "constructions, propensities, karmic tendencies", etc
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry this one -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra
Stim Morane: I like Bolonath's angle for our discussion
Gaya Ethaniel: So Hindu meaning is ... ?
Stim Morane: would you like to unpack it more, Bolonath?
Stim Morane: brb
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick :)
Bolonath Crystal: difficult to explain...
Mickorod Renard: Hiya all,,sozz crashed
arabella Ella: wb Mick
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Mickorod Renard: :)
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Bertram Jacobus: (i now sit between two men in black) (!) ... :o)
Bolonath Crystal: if i do something (or think something) again and again, it forms a kind of rut in the mental structure. so every time it is easier to do/think it again, until it happens more or less without efford
Bolonath Crystal: that's meant by samskara in hinduism
Mickorod Renard: he he
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I see what you mean.
arabella Ella: isnt that like acquiring a new skill which is useful ... with practice?
Qt Core: remind me much about ... "practice make perfect"
Liza Deischer: it makes an inprint
Bolonath Crystal nods
Stim Morane: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that kind of habits allow one to do something more ... express something for example.
Eden Haiku: Samsakra is like you start eating chocalate cookies and then you can't stop ;-)
Stim Morane: and this imprint was understood in a positive way in Hinduism
Liza Deischer: to me it is more than just a new skill
Bolonath Crystal: but of course it also can be negative - if it is a 'bad habit'
Stim Morane: yes, that is more related to the Buddhist meaning
Gaya Ethaniel frowns ... and ponders the difference ...
Stim Morane: the word was unpacked later, by Chinese, as meaning "preparation"
Calvino Rabeni: Even a healthy, useful skill creates a blindness, I think
Calvino Rabeni: I see no essential difference at that level
Eden Haiku: I noiticed the 9 secs practice seems to come more naturally with time.
Liza Deischer: I think that depends
Liza Deischer: Iknow the eperience of getting a bit dull
Liza Deischer: mechanical
Calvino Rabeni: A good habit is one you can easily drop when it is not appropriate
Calvino Rabeni: A bad habit clings.
Liza Deischer: not reallu doing it
Liza Deischer: I dont think that is necesarily
Liza Deischer: the you loose your openess and youre just doing it 'out of habit'
Liza Deischer: thats antoher habit then where bolo is talking about
Gaya Ethaniel scribbles ... 'openness' ...
Stim Morane: yes. But Bolonath is right to point out that a positive gesture of appreciation can be a daily thing and also open.
Liza Deischer: yes
Stim Morane: to put this another way, his view would include the notion that it's precisely the daily renewal that keeps our capacity for true openness alive
Liza Deischer: but I wonder what Gaya meant
Gaya Ethaniel is just listening in ... :)
Liza Deischer: thats put nice
Zen Arado: I thought Gaya meant doing something as an empty ritual - not thinking about it
Liza Deischer: but then it is always a new experience
Liza Deischer: even if it is a habbit
Gaya Ethaniel doesn't know what she meant ... :)
Liza Deischer: well im not sure what gaya menat
Stim Morane: :)
Liza Deischer: oh.....ok :)
Calvino Rabeni: Rituals as a kind of container seem really important
Gaya Ethaniel: You can tell me what I meant anyway which is more fun :D
Calvino Rabeni: Not empty but filled up with You
Gaya Ethaniel scribbles ... 'daily renewal' ...
Mickorod Renard: I have heard it said that like having breakfast one should also refresh the spirit in the morning with some light reminder,,like a prayer
Liza Deischer: but i think Zen said what i meant (in a shorter and more direct way)
Zen Arado: yes but the idea of meaningless and empty is often attached nowadays
Zen Arado: to the word ritual
Eden Haiku: That is beautiful Mickorod! Nice ritual!
Calvino Rabeni: Unfairly attached, Zen
Zen Arado: rituals are important when done mindfully
Zen Arado: I think
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Bolonath Crystal agrees
Liza Deischer: well emptiness can have different meanings too :)
Bolonath Crystal: rituals are important when done mindfully, but often they are not done mindfully :(
Gaya Ethaniel: So ... this opennes ... how does one develop it?
Bertram Jacobus: which not mindfully done rituals you have in mind bolonath ? :-)
Calvino Rabeni: To be fair to rituals, sometimes they are effective even when they do notappear to be mindful
Bertram Jacobus: practising i guess gaya, again and again ...
Bolonath Crystal: oh, bert, christmas is approaching...
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay. thanks bolo ... :-)
Liza Deischer: I thinks that is true Cal
Zen Arado: agree Cal
Mickorod Renard: emptying all my preconcieved rubbish outa my head could be classed as emptiness
Gaya Ethaniel ponders ... practising openness ... it sounds mysterious :)
Bolonath Crystal: maybe openness can be developed by not having expectations?
Zen Arado: a kind of framework?
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Calvino Rabeni: In the sense that "you" may not realize the other parts of "you" the ritual is working on
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Liza Deischer: I agree bolonath
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps Bolonath ... not having goals or expectations.
Liza Deischer: if you do the wame ritual over and over again
Liza Deischer: it might happen that you think to know what the outcome will be
Gaya Ethaniel: I've been thinking about opennes for a long while now ... still scratching the surface :)
Mickorod Renard: or reaching goals without preconceptions
Bertram Jacobus: mysterious ? practising openness ? not at all i find ! ;-) : easy with aspects and situations, which are more neutral to us, more difficult to other situations and aspects - so we can go step by step with this practise - no ?
Liza Deischer: in that case you loose your mindfuness
Bertram Jacobus: practice*
Gaya Ethaniel ponders.
Zen Arado: but what we think of as the same rituall will always be different - no?
Zen Arado: trick is to find newness in the mundane
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean whether we think we are doing it same or not Zen?
arabella Ella: not necessarily ... sometimes there is conmfort in habituality
Zen Arado: by being more mindful
Eden Haiku: Always the same river, never the same water.
Zen Arado: yes exactly Eden
Gaya Ethaniel: Would it be fair to say then it's our perceptions that get fixed?
Mickorod Renard: there is comfort in believing that no harm will come to ones,self by your actions if they are pure
Liza Deischer: nice Eden
Qt Core: this remind me of my daily trip from to work
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Or ideas of our perceptions even ...
Eden Haiku: How so QT?
Qt Core: i' started working in early nineties in the firm i work for now
Eden Haiku: listens
Mickorod Renard: mmm?
Qt Core: so i should remember my route and eberything you can see on those roads quite well, right ?
Eden Haiku: Right.
Liza Deischer: and you got lost :)
Qt Core: but for some reason, even if i have a good memory i dont (want to ?) remember it
Qt Core: (onec, in 2002 liza :-)
Mickorod Renard: sometimes you can be a passendger,,and not all together observant
Liza Deischer: :)
Qt Core: so almost every day i see something new
Eden Haiku: So everything looks fresh?
Qt Core: even if i shouldn't
Qt Core: sometimes, especially in spring/summer when there is more light in the evening is may way to relax after work before coming home
Eden Haiku: That is a nice way to be looking at life.
arabella Ella: do you walk then Qt ,..?
Qt Core: no i drive
arabella Ella: ah
Qt Core: and as my workplace is east of my living place i got to see sunset or dawn, depending on season too
Eden Haiku: Wonderful example of samskara yet new outlook.
Mickorod Renard: wow nice
arabella Ella: how lovely
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bolonath Crystal: our attention is attracted by things that change. and if we expect something not to change it might happen that we don't realize it, even if it changes. like the husband who doesn't realize the new hair style of his wife ;)
Zen Arado: life could be more exciting and interesting if we would pay more attention to every detail of our life
Qt Core: but that is a double edged sword, i like sunsets and dawns but really hate the sun in my eyes ;-)
Liza Deischer: so actually we can practise anywhere
Eden Haiku: agrees
Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
Eden Haiku: What a double-edged sword Qt! So lucky to live under Italian sun!
Stim Morane: :)
arabella Ella: i was actually gonna ask about the sun in your eyes as you drive towards it at sunset :)
Zen Arado: that is what 'waking up' is I guess
Gaya Ethaniel: I think I will think for a while tonight about different meanings of habit ... very helpful.
Qt Core: worse in the morning, ara
arabella Ella: ah
Zen Arado: most of us go around 'unconscious'
Eden Haiku: Picturing Qt driving into the sunset...
Zen Arado: :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Zen Arado: should be on a horse though :)
Qt Core: even pollution has its use, what a reddish sunsets when it is heavvy ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: hehe
Liza Deischer: the modern horse nowadays :)
Bertram Jacobus: wasnt it lucky luke, the guy on the horse riding into the sunrise ? ...
Eden Haiku: Yes ;-) Lucky Luke Qt!
Gaya Ethaniel: Back to RL :) Good day/night everyone.
Liza Deischer: bye Gaya
Zen Arado: bye Gaya
Stim Morane: Bye, Gaya
Qt Core: bye GAya
Eden Haiku: Goodnite Kittie-Kat Gaya!
Bolonath Crystal: nite gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Stim Morane: :)
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Mickorod Renard: nite gaya
Qt Core: trying to keep my head from blowing at the idea of a horse riding Qt sunset or no sunset
Yakuzza Lethecus: i go to the dream session
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Liza Deischer: bye Yaky
Liza Deischer: Yaku
Zen Arado: bye Yaku
arabella Ella: sounds good Qt ... you on a horse ... etc etc
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Stim Morane: Must go. Thanks, everyone!
Zen Arado: just hitch up and ride over :)
Zen Arado: Bye Stim
Mickorod Renard: nice sweater Bert
Liza Deischer: bye stim