2009.12.22 19:00 - I Contain Multitudes

 

The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

Eos Amaterasu watches large grey falling rectangles rezzing into falling snow

Eos Amaterasu: it's been snowier in the playgoda lately

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino

Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Eos

Calvino Rabeni: How go everything?

Eos Amaterasu: Pretty well, a lot of rush around xmas relaxation

Calvino Rabeni: Arch, hello

Eos Amaterasu: Hi arch

Archmage Atlantis: Hello Cal, Eos

Arch brought a talking snake with him

Eos Amaterasu: hi brown sssssssnake

Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, he's not playing by the team rules

Archmage Atlantis: Ok

Eos Amaterasu: We continue on the facilitation theme....

Calvino Rabeni: sssssnakes are like that

Eos Amaterasu: ssssshure

Archmage Atlantis: Apparently so

Archmage Atlantis: He got added on a visit to SL Egypt, and I think he'll a bit elemental

Eos Amaterasu: picking up spirits along the way....

Archmage Atlantis: I have to negotiate a bit before he gets to come out in public

Archmage Atlantis: Yea, sorta Eos

Archmage Atlantis: The creative mind is a peculiar place

Eos Amaterasu listens

Archmage Atlantis: I was going to be on time, but trying to get the snake to behave slowed me down, I burned the reduction from the juices of last nights vegie stir fry (tomatoes always throw off a lot of liquid)

Archmage Atlantis: And then it was late, so I let him come with me

Archmage Atlantis: Pure circumstance, to say other is a flight of fancy *grin*

Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, okay, 90 secs coming up, snake and all

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: How was that?

Eos Amaterasu: I think I was appreciating the space of preoccupation :-)

Calvino Rabeni: I was dropping various agendas, then started thinking about your comment Eos "relating to that inner place from which awareness and action come"

Archmage Atlantis: A question laden with ambiquity "How was that?"

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, appreciation is a good "tool"

Calvino Rabeni: Ambiguous questions are a give of flexibility, much as people seem to object

Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, still mentally rushing around

Eos Amaterasu: That might be a good starting point to talking about facilitation

Calvino Rabeni: Sure ok

Archmage Atlantis: Ok

Eos Amaterasu: Would you like to continue with the starting point you brought up, Calvino?

Calvino Rabeni: Ok

Calvino Rabeni: It seems good for the facilitator to be aware of how much ambiguity can be handled

Calvino Rabeni: This relates to both themes

Calvino Rabeni: So, if you give people an opportunity to "come from" that inner place

Calvino Rabeni: It is counter to some social habits - they may need some encouragement

Calvino Rabeni: My personal take is, the inner place needs cultivation

Calvino Rabeni: which I have given it, and it responds well to ambiguity

Calvino Rabeni: but in a group I think it takes some finessing with structure

Calvino Rabeni: Does any of that give you an idea for continuing?

Eos Amaterasu: Yes, you could break it up into some sequences or aspects.

Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal, would like to hear your ideas on the finessing.

Eos Amaterasu: For example, first you have an idea or glimpse

Eos Amaterasu: that there is something worth cultivating

Eos Amaterasu: and then you realize there is a way to cultivating it

Eos Amaterasu: and then you cultivate it

Calvino Rabeni: Yes - a personal decision to oneself

Eos Amaterasu: that's a personal journey

Calvino Rabeni: Trust in oneself

Eos Amaterasu: the question is how a group can make such a journey

Calvino Rabeni: And then another stage, trust that it is something to put into the public space

Calvino Rabeni: in some form

Eos Amaterasu: Yes, that trust is trust in yourself

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Eos Amaterasu: (at least toleration of yourself :-)

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Eos Amaterasu: which means you can relax more, and see more, and care about what you experience

Eos Amaterasu: and include others in that

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Eos Amaterasu: Part of it is realizing the contribution you make to the situation

Calvino Rabeni: And less of it would be the agendas of self-suspicion that people carry sometimes

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Eos Amaterasu: so both some cynicism to and some acceptance of yourself

Eos Amaterasu: seeing clearly but being merciful :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Indeed

Eos Amaterasu: if you can do that to yourself you can do it with others

Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa

Calvino Rabeni: Some facilitation teachers take this issue by the horns

Eos Amaterasu: yes, it's a peer situation, networked :-)

Calvino Rabeni: and ask people to consider that part of facilitation

Calvino Rabeni: is to consider yourself as the gift you give to others

Calvino Rabeni: That is a stretch for many, but makes sense

Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm, that is facilitating to share oneself as I would see it....with facilitating to bring out the learning of the group is related but with a slightly different emphasis........any thoughts on that?

Calvino Rabeni: There is a big overlap

Calvino Rabeni: Skills of one are skills of the other insofar as they overlap

Calvino Rabeni: People don't really want a uniform human being

Eos Amaterasu: ultimately each person needs that personal journey to and from their inner place

Calvino Rabeni: they want role models, where they can both feel same and different

Eos Amaterasu: (which is not really inner -inside-the-skin - so to speak)

Calvino Rabeni: Right

Eos Amaterasu: a person that speaks to the best myth in them

Eos Amaterasu: so they inspire you

Calvino Rabeni: is inspiring

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator can see those myths, hopefully

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: And allow them into the facilitation

Paradise Tennant: hello eos, cal , arch :)

Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Paradise

Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise:)

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise!

Archmage Atlantis: The pillow seats here are dark blue and russet brown on my screen

Eos Amaterasu: Maybe a facilitator can see that inner place in those myths

Archmage Atlantis: When I come here I always pick a blue one

Eos Amaterasu: which is seeing what inspires people in them

Paradise Tennant: ;)

Eos Amaterasu: and see that that inspiration may come through the myth but is not actually tied to it

Archmage Atlantis: There is one blue one that only allows me to sit as Paradise is sitting

Calvino Rabeni: One important theme is - what do you feel passion about

Calvino Rabeni: and the idea that being in the group could be bringing that as a gift

Eos Amaterasu: that's where you "live"

Calvino Rabeni: It is very "soft"

Archmage Atlantis: Thus, I can either move, or sit in a way that is not natural for me

Eos Amaterasu: move

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, bring what you live in, and then feel where you have passion to move from there

Archmage Atlantis: I don't, I chose to experience the difference

Eos Amaterasu: vive la difference!

Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, we're talking about the "inner place" of an individual, and the "inner place" of a group, and facilitation bridging the two

Paradise Tennant: there is always a shared space :)

Calvino Rabeni: I heard another take on this a while back, which I liked. The author called it "SupraSex".

Archmage Atlantis: a winter storm approaches

Calvino Rabeni: It is not physical sex, but the idea that people can engage together in shared creation

Calvino Rabeni: and that they like this and are drawn to it

Paradise Tennant: brainstorming after a fashion where .. ideas ..bloom ..

Calvino Rabeni: Some traditions say creative energy and sexual energy are linked

Eos Amaterasu: sex is sublimated creation

Calvino Rabeni: The attraction being - to create something together in the world

Calvino Rabeni: and see it become independent of each of them

Calvino Rabeni: Of course authors have noted the link - e.g. that real sex cuts down their creative production

Calvino Rabeni: but for me, the useful part of the idea is to acknowledge the desire and shared-ness of it

Paradise Tennant: ;) hmm a lot of creativity is born from misery :)

Archmage Atlantis: Note to self: Avoid authors

Calvino Rabeni: so they say, personally I don't believe it much

Storm Nordwind: It is true though

Paradise Tennant: particularly the emotional aftermath of romance ..

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Storm

Paradise Tennant: hi storm :)

Archmage Atlantis: Hi Storm :)

Storm Nordwind smiles at everyone

Calvino Rabeni: It may be true, but it is true with a certain spin

Calvino Rabeni: and other spins seem a bit more liberating

Eos Amaterasu: creativity from the emotional aftermath of romance.... can u say more, Para?

Calvino Rabeni: listens

Paradise Tennant: well many many wonderful songs, stories are borne of heart ache something about the intensity of the pain I think .. the fact that is so common ..so humane ..makes for a path to that shared space :)

Calvino Rabeni: My take, is, the romance includes an experience of Beauty

Archmage Atlantis: New note to self: Seek artists and authors on the rebound *grin*

Eos Amaterasu: That's a really good one: creating a shared space takes a path, made more real thru shared pain?

Calvino Rabeni: which is motivating, when people lose the romance, they desire to find beauty elsewhere

Paradise Tennant: lol arch

Calvino Rabeni: to continue with it

Storm Nordwind: No they don't Cal

Calvino Rabeni: That works Arch :)

Storm Nordwind: They want to regain it in the same place!

Calvino Rabeni: Same in themself, that would work

Calvino Rabeni: But they are at a loss for the externals

Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully the find another place

Storm Nordwind: To transfer it to someone else does not work as regards creativity

Eos Amaterasu: creativity from the emotional aftermath of romance...

Storm Nordwind: To do that you are removing the pain by acknowledging another possibility

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: That doesn't match my experience, and I've heard it spoken of by others in the same way

Storm Nordwind: It is the intensity of the emotional pain that digs deep

Storm Nordwind is a songwriter and recalls that his most prolific and most beautiful songs were written in emotional trauma, but only when directed to the one lost, not to another possibility

Archmage Atlantis: It is always my first question to a recently met spiritual teacher, after I get to know them a bit, ...."Does suffering have meaning or purpose?"

Paradise Tennant: great question arch

Eos Amaterasu: Hopefully they sing you a song :-)

Calvino Rabeni: I believe Arch has insights into pain as a kind of power - if I may refer to that, Arch?

Archmage Atlantis: They do sing, in some sense.

Calvino Rabeni: And I relate to the "dig deep" idea of Storm

Archmage Atlantis: Oh sure, Cal, I'm fine with that.

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Calvino Rabeni: There's a creative motivation in pain, but also a way people can get stuck in it

Calvino Rabeni: And I think facilitation needs to be careful with that

Paradise Tennant: pain often feeds the ego

Storm Nordwind: I suspect people who are in a state of perfect equanimity and meditative equipoise rarely write good songs.

Paradise Tennant: smiles at storm

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, delusion is not good at growth or songwriting.....

Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, Mozart managed both equanimity and scandalous songs

Calvino Rabeni: Pain is a delusion, often

Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal

Calvino Rabeni: Or a motivation

Storm Nordwind: Always

Storm Nordwind: Always a delusion

Paradise Tennant: smiles at storm !

Eos Amaterasu: thy name is vanity!

Eos Amaterasu: but could be a good show nevertheless

Storm Nordwind: The kindest and most loving spiritual teacher I ever had reminded me once that if I ever felt any discomfort it was a telltale sign of delusion

Eos Amaterasu: what about comfort?

Storm Nordwind chuckles

Calvino Rabeni: Two-sided, like pain

Storm Nordwind: Indeed Eos

Eos Amaterasu: I like the unrequited romance part

Archmage Atlantis: So you learned by knowing that the discomfort was a guide, Storm....is that accurate?

Eos Amaterasu: you thought you were touched

Eos Amaterasu: you were you weren't

Storm Nordwind: Yes Arch... one is a sure sign of the other , as far as I can tell - but in one direction. There may well be delusions that produce no discomfort!

Calvino Rabeni: Can we tie that into facilitation?

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, often one finds that in those who have split themselves into parts that do not negotiate......one part may control and not feel the discomfort caused to the other parts

Calvino Rabeni: nice point

Storm Nordwind nods

Calvino Rabeni: and consume a lot of energy in the process

Calvino Rabeni: a self-facilitation may involve those multiple parts

Eos Amaterasu: we contain multitudes

Eos Amaterasu: (Whitman?)

Calvino Rabeni: Similar to group facilitation, in principle

Calvino Rabeni: Whitman.

Storm Nordwind: There are whole professions that makie their money by insisting everyone is split into disparate parts like that and who refuse to believe anyone can be integrated

Calvino Rabeni: "Do I contradict myself? Then I contradict myself. I contain multitudes"

Eos Amaterasu: Maybe that's a great theme for next 90 secs :-)

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, people find all kinds of ways of making money by holding out the promise of rearranging the parts

Archmage Atlantis: We are a species that is both community and individual

Calvino Rabeni: And call it help

Calvino Rabeni: Yes arch

Storm Nordwind nods to both

Calvino Rabeni: Eos is good reminding about the pause timing

Calvino Rabeni: Are we multiple...

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: The most powerful thing is that we are able to share 90 secs across space and time and personality

Eos Amaterasu: it's the surface thing, in a way: just this simple thing

Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all :)

Archmage Atlantis: Yes Walt Whitman "Song of Myself"

Archmage Atlantis: Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Eos Amaterasu: so if we do or can do that individually, we also can do so, containing each other, as a group?

Archmage Atlantis: I love search engines, they are like the law library.....no one can remember everything, so all is preserved

Calvino Rabeni: I hold the question lightly, during the pause

Archmage Atlantis: For reference

Calvino Rabeni: Eos, do you have a more definite answer than my "yes"?

Paradise Tennant: Song of Myself By Walt Whitman 1819-1892 1 I celebrate myself, and sing myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. I loafe and invite my soul, I lean and loafe at my ease observing a spear of summer grass. My tongue, every atom of my blood, form'd from this soil, this air, Born here of parents born here from parents the same, and their parents the same, I, now thirty-seven years old in perfect health begin, Hoping to cease not till death. Creeds and schools in abeyance, Retiring back a while sufficed at what they are, but never forgotten, I harbor for good or bad, I permit to speak at every hazard, Nature without check with original energy. 2 Houses and rooms are full of perfumes, the shelves are crowded with perfumes, I breathe the fragrance myself and know it and like it, The distillation would intoxicate me also, but I shall not let it. The atmosphere is not a perfume, it has no taste of the distillatio

Paradise Tennant: sorry .. eos maybe you can cut that and paste it at the end ..it was the poem you referenced .. a lovely one at that

Eos Amaterasu: self-facilitation, group facilitation

Storm Nordwind: It is a strange awareness Eos. To be aware of the group, together across those spaces, and yet forsaking the renunciation of separation in order to do so!

Eos Amaterasu: (yes indeed)

Calvino Rabeni: Braced in the beams, stout as a horse, haughty, upright ... electrical (continuing Whitman)

Archmage Atlantis: The dead live among us :)

Calvino Rabeni: There is some commitment to being with others

Eos Amaterasu: we have lots of voices of the dead in us, they are among the multitudes

Calvino Rabeni: sacrifice and/or joy

Calvino Rabeni: :) Eos - ancestors

Eos Amaterasu: lineage

Calvino Rabeni: and they deserve gratitude or respect, I feel

Calvino Rabeni: Even the robbers and thieves

Eos Amaterasu: yes, we have a number of generations of humanity that brought us here

Eos Amaterasu: they also populate our inner place

Calvino Rabeni: they suffered, prevailed

Storm Nordwind: As a Heathen, ancestors were important. As a Buddhist, lineage is important. So are the traditions.

Calvino Rabeni: Those who think the are not part of a legacy ...

Calvino Rabeni: are missing something

Archmage Atlantis: They do not truely think, Cal, they only exist

Storm Nordwind: We advance into the future by laying down new layers of the past - for our children to stand on

Calvino Rabeni: Or not deeply

Calvino Rabeni: Which reminds me, back to facilitation - that in my experience good facilitators help people feel "part of something" beyond themselves

Storm Nordwind excuses himself and slips away into the snow

Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Storm for joining

Eos Amaterasu: mush!

Archmage Atlantis: I do not meant that as harshly as it comes across, some are just where they are at this time in this life

Paradise Tennant: waves at storm's departing

Calvino Rabeni: That is an issue, Arch, to be aware of

Eos Amaterasu: mabye through both facilitator and facilitatee feeling part of something beyond themselves

Archmage Atlantis: Could have taken the snow with him :)

Paradise Tennant: lol

Archmage Atlantis: Just in case you read this log later Storm *grin*

Eos Amaterasu feels very Canadian in the snow :-)

Paradise Tennant: :) yes feels just like home .. minus 19 c here

Calvino Rabeni: RIght, what we say here - becomes the legacy of the future in cyberspace forever

Eos Amaterasu: mutual journey of facilitator/ee

Calvino Rabeni: : forget I said that now :)

Paradise Tennant: ;)

Eos Amaterasu: both have to go on a journey over the edge

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: well .. perhaps the best part of facilitation is that aptly applied it can bring us closer to reality .. to truly understanding what walt whitman was describing .. the one :)

Archmage Atlantis: Well, I have to clean my burned wok so I can finish a very late dinner, ToDaLoo all *smile*

Paradise Tennant: waves at arch .. happy dining

Eos Amaterasu: bye Arch

Calvino Rabeni: I'm getting to appreciate the PaB practice pauses more

Eos Amaterasu: btw, "facilitating" has a slight sense of disengaging

Eos Amaterasu: whereas "leadership" is more engaged, committed

Calvino Rabeni: yes, there has been some talk of that

Calvino Rabeni: I see the distinction

Eos Amaterasu: unless "facilitator" is an ongong role, individual or shared or rotating

Calvino Rabeni: In some of my groups it is a rotating role

Eos Amaterasu: How is that appreciation of PaB pauses, Calvino?

Calvino Rabeni: facilitator could also be a participant, fully committed and co-creative

Paradise Tennant: sadly .. I should make tracks in the snow too .. thank you both .. for the wonderful conversation .. I will be hearing walt's words as I settle down to sleep ..:)

Calvino Rabeni: but the disctinction refers to a role

Eos Amaterasu: :-) bye Para

Calvino Rabeni: Glad you were here Paradise, so long for now.

Paradise Tennant: nite nite :)

Calvino Rabeni: Appreciation?

Calvino Rabeni: Ok

Calvino Rabeni: I try to be careful when it feels like habits want to take over the pause

Calvino Rabeni: because when that doesn't happen, I enjoy the experience

Calvino Rabeni: and feel gratitude for it

Eos Amaterasu: the ongoingness of habitual stuff is experiential karma

Eos Amaterasu: is experience of karma

Calvino Rabeni: I probably agree, but have a non-hindu frame for it

Eos Amaterasu: karma as obsessive cause & effect chain

Calvino Rabeni: OK, I can feel the "obsessive" quality, and the chain-ey-ness

Eos Amaterasu: I think the "multitudes" aspect is that stuff happens in the 9 or 90 secs

Calvino Rabeni: But I think of it as a kind of automatic process that goes on if a creative awareness is not brought in

Calvino Rabeni: I become aware if it in the pause, but also outside

Calvino Rabeni: although in the pause it is easier to "drop"

Eos Amaterasu: yea, there's it and there's awareness of it

Eos Amaterasu: just dropping is enough

Calvino Rabeni: the extra attention during the pause helps

Eos Amaterasu: as long as it is not "preventing"

Eos Amaterasu: 'cause that's an effort

Calvino Rabeni: agree

Eos Amaterasu: and artificial

Calvino Rabeni: yes

Eos Amaterasu: same in a group

Eos Amaterasu: you want things to come up, but not obsessions about them :-)

Calvino Rabeni: yes, I think I know what you mean

Calvino Rabeni: exactly

Calvino Rabeni: another thing, a facilitator can't necessarily do the same as a "guru" and give advice

Calvino Rabeni: but as a peer participant, perhaps \

Eos Amaterasu: what can a facilitator do?

Calvino Rabeni: It is kind of like (what I consider) one of Pema's ideas for PaB

Calvino Rabeni: that is, a group of people can exchange and help with knowledge

Calvino Rabeni: but with a peer social model, not a hierarchical traditional model

Calvino Rabeni: I think, in facilitation, there is some of that

Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator does not tell people what they should do

Eos Amaterasu: the tricky thing is to be peer-to-peer while respecting that there are distinct roles

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: But can say, "this works for me, and I can tell you others say it works for them"

Calvino Rabeni: An experienced group is often more flexible about the issues of roles and identification

Eos Amaterasu: if you trust each other you can allow roles

Calvino Rabeni: yes, true

Calvino Rabeni: I'm in various groups, they have different needs with respect to that

Eos Amaterasu: which also means authority

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Calvino Rabeni: and structure

Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator can cook something up that the group will find palatable

Eos Amaterasu: is facilitation something you do for a living?

Eos Amaterasu: or are you in a number of groups that use facilitative processes?

Calvino Rabeni: I also respect a facilitator who knows when to recuse themself

Calvino Rabeni: The second is more true. I did some short term facilitation and also in groups that rotate the role. Plus being a long-time observer of group process in various contexts

Calvino Rabeni: Studied psychotherapy

Calvino Rabeni: Did not adopt it as a vocation, however

Calvino Rabeni: I have been to various trainings on it

Calvino Rabeni: How about you Eos, whence your interest in the topic?

Eos Amaterasu: oh, dynamics of groups, group creativity, decision making

Eos Amaterasu: have been in various groups as well, social, technicial, contemplative, cultural

Calvino Rabeni: sounds similar

Calvino Rabeni: Usually in groups, my focus is on those issues, rather than primarily on the content

Eos Amaterasu: my wife directs Alia (Authentic Leadership in Action) Institute, which is about many of these themes

Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, tell me their affiliations?

Eos Amaterasu: Toke Moller has presented Art of Hosting there

Eos Amaterasu: Presencing (Otto Scharmer); World Cafe; etc

Eos Amaterasu: http://www.aliainstitute.org

Calvino Rabeni: RIght, these things have a kind of network of influences

Calvino Rabeni: Crossing paths with other groups

Eos Amaterasu: "authentic leadership" is an attempt at phrasing something like "facilitating leadership" or "servant leadership"

Calvino Rabeni: In the 90's there were actions of varous people who seemed to know each other

Eos Amaterasu: "leader" is a trigger word

Calvino Rabeni: Wheatley, Tom Atlee

Eos Amaterasu: but

Eos Amaterasu: it starts with being leader of yourself :-)

Eos Amaterasu: (back to that inner place and its culitvation)

Calvino Rabeni: Berkana, The Art Of Hosting

Calvino Rabeni: Agree with what you are saying

Eos Amaterasu: Meg Wheatley

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Calvino Rabeni: Atlee does the Cointelligence Institute

Calvino Rabeni: In the early 90's there was in internet group called the Transformational Learning Community

Calvino Rabeni: run by a futurist named Robert Theobald

Eos Amaterasu: yes

Calvino Rabeni: I was their webmaster and designer, and went to retreats

Eos Amaterasu: I also like Englebart's "augment" project

Eos Amaterasu: which was/is about "improving improvement"

Calvino Rabeni: That's a more technology focus

Calvino Rabeni: But I have always been attracted to "appropriate technology"

Eos Amaterasu: improving the prime mover's (yours) awareness of their role

Eos Amaterasu: in solving "wicked" problems

Calvino Rabeni: Yes all important.

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Eos Amaterasu: we're in a big field

Calvino Rabeni: and getting bigger.

Eos Amaterasu: I must get to bed....

Eos Amaterasu visualizes a big field of flowers....

Calvino Rabeni: Joanna Macy wrestled with the Wicked problem in the area of environmental activism

Calvino Rabeni: which is an intersting story - for another time

Eos Amaterasu: Yes

Calvino Rabeni: Time for dinner.

Eos Amaterasu: Meanwhile, go see Avatar in 3D!

Eos Amaterasu: (great movie)

Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking it would be good to continue this theme in January, would you be up for it?

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Bye