The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu. This was another theme session on facilitation.

Eos Amaterasu watches large grey falling rectangles rezzing into falling snow
Eos Amaterasu: it's been snowier in the playgoda lately
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Eos
Calvino Rabeni: How go everything?
Eos Amaterasu: Pretty well, a lot of rush around xmas relaxation
Calvino Rabeni: Arch, hello
Eos Amaterasu: Hi arch
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Cal, Eos

Arch brought a talking snake with him, whose comments were not logged
Eos Amaterasu: hi brown sssssssnake
Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, he's not playing by the team rules
Archmage Atlantis: Ok
Eos Amaterasu: We continue on the facilitation theme....
Calvino Rabeni: sssssnakes are like that
Eos Amaterasu: ssssshure
Archmage Atlantis: Apparently so
Archmage Atlantis: He got added on a visit to SL Egypt, and I think he'll a bit elemental
Eos Amaterasu: picking up spirits along the way....
Archmage Atlantis: I have to negotiate a bit before he gets to come out in public
Archmage Atlantis: Yea, sorta Eos
Archmage Atlantis: The creative mind is a peculiar place
Eos Amaterasu listens
Archmage Atlantis: I was going to be on time, but trying to get the snake to behave slowed me down, I burned the reduction from the juices of last nights vegie stir fry (tomatoes always throw off a lot of liquid)
Archmage Atlantis: And then it was late, so I let him come with me
Archmage Atlantis: Pure circumstance, to say other is a flight of fancy *grin*
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, okay, 90 secs coming up, snake and all

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: How was that?
Eos Amaterasu: I think I was appreciating the space of preoccupation :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I was dropping various agendas, then started thinking about your comment Eos "relating to that inner place from which awareness and action come"
Archmage Atlantis: A question laden with ambiquity "How was that?"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, appreciation is a good "tool"
Calvino Rabeni: Ambiguous questions are a give of flexibility, much as people seem to object
Archmage Atlantis: Sorry, still mentally rushing around
Eos Amaterasu: That might be a good starting point to talking about facilitation
Calvino Rabeni: Sure ok
Archmage Atlantis: Ok
Eos Amaterasu: Would you like to continue with the starting point you brought up, Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: Ok
Calvino Rabeni: It seems good for the facilitator to be aware of how much ambiguity can be handled
Calvino Rabeni: This relates to both themes
Calvino Rabeni: So, if you give people an opportunity to "come from" that inner place
Calvino Rabeni: It is counter to some social habits - they may need some encouragement
Calvino Rabeni: My personal take is, the inner place needs cultivation
Calvino Rabeni: which I have given it, and it responds well to ambiguity
Calvino Rabeni: but in a group I think it takes some finessing with structure
Calvino Rabeni: Does any of that give you an idea for continuing?
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, you could break it up into some sequences or aspects.
Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal, would like to hear your ideas on the finessing.
Eos Amaterasu: For example, first you have an idea or glimpse
Eos Amaterasu: that there is something worth cultivating
Eos Amaterasu: and then you realize there is a way to cultivating it
Eos Amaterasu: and then you cultivate it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes - a personal decision to oneself
Eos Amaterasu: that's a personal journey
Calvino Rabeni: Trust in oneself
Eos Amaterasu: the question is how a group can make such a journey
Calvino Rabeni: And then another stage, trust that it is something to put into the public space
Calvino Rabeni: in some form
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, that trust is trust in yourself
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: (at least toleration of yourself :-)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eos Amaterasu: which means you can relax more, and see more, and care about what you experience
Eos Amaterasu: and include others in that
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: Part of it is realizing the contribution you make to the situation
Calvino Rabeni: And less of it would be the agendas of self-suspicion that people carry sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Eos Amaterasu: so both some cynicism to and some acceptance of yourself
Eos Amaterasu: seeing clearly but being merciful :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
Eos Amaterasu: if you can do that to yourself you can do it with others
Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa
Calvino Rabeni: Some facilitation teachers take this issue by the horns
Eos Amaterasu: yes, it's a peer situation, networked :-)
Calvino Rabeni: and ask people to consider that part of facilitation
Calvino Rabeni: is to consider yourself as the gift you give to others
Calvino Rabeni: That is a stretch for many, but makes sense
Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm, that is facilitating to share oneself as I would see it....with facilitating to bring out the learning of the group is related but with a slightly different emphasis........any thoughts on that?
Calvino Rabeni: There is a big overlap
Calvino Rabeni: Skills of one are skills of the other insofar as they overlap
Calvino Rabeni: People don't really want a uniform human being
Eos Amaterasu: ultimately each person needs that personal journey to and from their inner place
Calvino Rabeni: they want role models, where they can both feel same and different
Eos Amaterasu: (which is not really inner -inside-the-skin - so to speak)
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Eos Amaterasu: a person that speaks to the best myth in them
Eos Amaterasu: so they inspire you
Calvino Rabeni: is inspiring
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator can see those myths, hopefully

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: And allow them into the facilitation
Paradise Tennant: hello eos, cal , arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Paradise
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise:)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise!
Archmage Atlantis: The pillow seats here are dark blue and russet brown on my screen
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe a facilitator can see that inner place in those myths
Archmage Atlantis: When I come here I always pick a blue one
Eos Amaterasu: which is seeing what inspires people in them
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eos Amaterasu: and see that that inspiration may come through the myth but is not actually tied to it
Archmage Atlantis: There is one blue one that only allows me to sit as Paradise is sitting
Calvino Rabeni: One important theme is - what do you feel passion about
Calvino Rabeni: and the idea that being in the group could be bringing that as a gift
Eos Amaterasu: that's where you "live"
Calvino Rabeni: It is very "soft"
Archmage Atlantis: Thus, I can either move, or sit in a way that is not natural for me
Eos Amaterasu: move
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, bring what you live in, and then feel where you have passion to move from there
Archmage Atlantis: I don't, I chose to experience the difference
Eos Amaterasu: vive la difference!
Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, we're talking about the "inner place" of an individual, and the "inner place" of a group, and facilitation bridging the two
Paradise Tennant: there is always a shared space :)
Calvino Rabeni: I heard another take on this a while back, which I liked. The author called it "SupraSex".
Archmage Atlantis: a winter storm approaches
Calvino Rabeni: It is not physical sex, but the idea that people can engage together in shared creation
Calvino Rabeni: and that they like this and are drawn to it
Paradise Tennant: brainstorming after a fashion where .. ideas ..bloom ..
Calvino Rabeni: Some traditions say creative energy and sexual energy are linked
Eos Amaterasu: sex is sublimated creation
Calvino Rabeni: The attraction being - to create something together in the world
Calvino Rabeni: and see it become independent of each of them
Calvino Rabeni: Of course authors have noted the link - e.g. that real sex cuts down their creative production
Calvino Rabeni: but for me, the useful part of the idea is to acknowledge the desire and shared-ness of it
Paradise Tennant: ;) hmm a lot of creativity is born from misery :)
Archmage Atlantis: Note to self: Avoid authors
Calvino Rabeni: so they say, personally I don't believe it much
Storm Nordwind: It is true though
Paradise Tennant: particularly the emotional aftermath of romance ..
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Storm
Paradise Tennant: hi storm :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Storm :)
Storm Nordwind smiles at everyone
Calvino Rabeni: It may be true, but it is true with a certain spin
Calvino Rabeni: and other spins seem a bit more liberating
Eos Amaterasu: creativity from the emotional aftermath of romance.... can u say more, Para?
Calvino Rabeni: listens
Paradise Tennant: well many many wonderful songs, stories are borne of heart ache something about the intensity of the pain I think .. the fact that is so common ..so humane ..makes for a path to that shared space :)
Calvino Rabeni: My take, is, the romance includes an experience of Beauty
Archmage Atlantis: New note to self: Seek artists and authors on the rebound *grin*
Eos Amaterasu: That's a really good one: creating a shared space takes a path, made more real thru shared pain?
Calvino Rabeni: which is motivating, when people lose the romance, they desire to find beauty elsewhere
Paradise Tennant: lol arch
Calvino Rabeni: to continue with it
Storm Nordwind: No they don't Cal
Calvino Rabeni: That works Arch :)
Storm Nordwind: They want to regain it in the same place!
Calvino Rabeni: Same in themself, that would work
Calvino Rabeni: But they are at a loss for the externals
Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully the find another place
Storm Nordwind: To transfer it to someone else does not work as regards creativity
Eos Amaterasu: creativity from the emotional aftermath of romance...
Storm Nordwind: To do that you are removing the pain by acknowledging another possibility

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: That doesn't match my experience, and I've heard it spoken of by others in the same way
Storm Nordwind: It is the intensity of the emotional pain that digs deep
Storm Nordwind is a songwriter and recalls that his most prolific and most beautiful songs were written in emotional trauma, but only when directed to the one lost, not to another possibility
Archmage Atlantis: It is always my first question to a recently met spiritual teacher, after I get to know them a bit, ...."Does suffering have meaning or purpose?"
Paradise Tennant: great question arch
Eos Amaterasu: Hopefully they sing you a song :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I believe Arch has insights into pain as a kind of power - if I may refer to that, Arch?
Archmage Atlantis: They do sing, in some sense.
Calvino Rabeni: And I relate to the "dig deep" idea of Storm
Archmage Atlantis: Oh sure, Cal, I'm fine with that.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: There's a creative motivation in pain, but also a way people can get stuck in it
Calvino Rabeni: And I think facilitation needs to be careful with that
Paradise Tennant: pain often feeds the ego
Storm Nordwind: I suspect people who are in a state of perfect equanimity and meditative equipoise rarely write good songs.
Paradise Tennant: smiles at storm
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, delusion is not good at growth or songwriting.....
Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, Mozart managed both equanimity and scandalous songs
Calvino Rabeni: Pain is a delusion, often
Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Or a motivation
Storm Nordwind: Always
Storm Nordwind: Always a delusion
Paradise Tennant: smiles at storm !
Eos Amaterasu: thy name is vanity!
Eos Amaterasu: but could be a good show nevertheless
Storm Nordwind: The kindest and most loving spiritual teacher I ever had reminded me once that if I ever felt any discomfort it was a telltale sign of delusion
Eos Amaterasu: what about comfort?
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: Two-sided, like pain
Storm Nordwind: Indeed Eos
Eos Amaterasu: I like the unrequited romance part
Archmage Atlantis: So you learned by knowing that the discomfort was a guide, Storm....is that accurate?
Eos Amaterasu: you thought you were touched
Eos Amaterasu: you were you weren't
Storm Nordwind: Yes Arch... one is a sure sign of the other , as far as I can tell - but in one direction. There may well be delusions that produce no discomfort!
Calvino Rabeni: Can we tie that into facilitation?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, often one finds that in those who have split themselves into parts that do not negotiate......one part may control and not feel the discomfort caused to the other parts
Calvino Rabeni: nice point
Storm Nordwind nods
Calvino Rabeni: and consume a lot of energy in the process
Calvino Rabeni: a self-facilitation may involve those multiple parts
Eos Amaterasu: we contain multitudes
Eos Amaterasu: (Whitman?)
Calvino Rabeni: Similar to group facilitation, in principle
Calvino Rabeni: Whitman.
Storm Nordwind: There are whole professions that makie their money by insisting everyone is split into disparate parts like that and who refuse to believe anyone can be integrated
Calvino Rabeni: "Do I contradict myself? Then I contradict myself. I contain multitudes"
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe that's a great theme for next 90 secs :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, people find all kinds of ways of making money by holding out the promise of rearranging the parts
Archmage Atlantis: We are a species that is both community and individual
Calvino Rabeni: And call it help
Calvino Rabeni: Yes arch
Storm Nordwind nods to both
Calvino Rabeni: Eos is good reminding about the pause timing
Calvino Rabeni: Are we multiple...

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: The most powerful thing is that we are able to share 90 secs across space and time and personality
Eos Amaterasu: it's the surface thing, in a way: just this simple thing
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks all :)
Archmage Atlantis: Yes Walt Whitman "Song of Myself"
Archmage Atlantis: Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)
Eos Amaterasu: so if we do or can do that individually, we also can do so, containing each other, as a group?
Archmage Atlantis: I love search engines, they are like the law library.....no one can remember everything, so all is preserved
Calvino Rabeni: I hold the question lightly, during the pause
Archmage Atlantis: For reference
Calvino Rabeni: Eos, do you have a more definite answer than my "yes"?
Paradise Tennant: Song of Myself By Walt Whitman 1819-1892 1 I celebrate myself, and sing myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. I loafe and invite my soul, I lean and loafe at my ease observing a spear of summer grass. My tongue, every atom of my blood, form'd from this soil, this air, Born here of parents born here from parents the same, and their parents the same, I, now thirty-seven years old in perfect health begin, Hoping to cease not till death. Creeds and schools in abeyance, Retiring back a while sufficed at what they are, but never forgotten, I harbor for good or bad, I permit to speak at every hazard, Nature without check with original energy. 2 Houses and rooms are full of perfumes, the shelves are crowded with perfumes, I breathe the fragrance myself and know it and like it, The distillation would intoxicate me also, but I shall not let it. The atmosphere is not a perfume, it has no taste of the distillatio
Paradise Tennant: sorry .. eos maybe you can cut that and paste it at the end ..it was the poem you referenced .. a lovely one at that
Eos Amaterasu: self-facilitation, group facilitation
Storm Nordwind: It is a strange awareness Eos. To be aware of the group, together across those spaces, and yet forsaking the renunciation of separation in order to do so!
Eos Amaterasu: (yes indeed)
Calvino Rabeni: Braced in the beams, stout as a horse, haughty, upright ... electrical (continuing Whitman)
Archmage Atlantis: The dead live among us :)
Calvino Rabeni: There is some commitment to being with others
Eos Amaterasu: we have lots of voices of the dead in us, they are among the multitudes
Calvino Rabeni: sacrifice and/or joy
Calvino Rabeni: :) Eos - ancestors
Eos Amaterasu: lineage
Calvino Rabeni: and they deserve gratitude or respect, I feel
Calvino Rabeni: Even the robbers and thieves
Eos Amaterasu: yes, we have a number of generations of humanity that brought us here
Eos Amaterasu: they also populate our inner place
Calvino Rabeni: they suffered, prevailed
Storm Nordwind: As a Heathen, ancestors were important. As a Buddhist, lineage is important. So are the traditions.
Calvino Rabeni: Those who think the are not part of a legacy ...
Calvino Rabeni: are missing something
Archmage Atlantis: They do not truely think, Cal, they only exist
Storm Nordwind: We advance into the future by laying down new layers of the past - for our children to stand on
Calvino Rabeni: Or not deeply
Calvino Rabeni: Which reminds me, back to facilitation - that in my experience good facilitators help people feel "part of something" beyond themselves
Storm Nordwind excuses himself and slips away into the snow
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Storm for joining
Eos Amaterasu: mush!
Archmage Atlantis: I do not meant that as harshly as it comes across, some are just where they are at this time in this life
Paradise Tennant: waves at storm's departing
Calvino Rabeni: That is an issue, Arch, to be aware of
Eos Amaterasu: mabye through both facilitator and facilitatee feeling part of something beyond themselves
Archmage Atlantis: Could have taken the snow with him :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Archmage Atlantis: Just in case you read this log later Storm *grin*
Eos Amaterasu feels very Canadian in the snow :-)
Paradise Tennant: :) yes feels just like home .. minus 19 c here
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, what we say here - becomes the legacy of the future in cyberspace forever
Eos Amaterasu: mutual journey of facilitator/ee
Calvino Rabeni: : forget I said that now :)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Eos Amaterasu: both have to go on a journey over the edge

--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: well .. perhaps the best part of facilitation is that aptly applied it can bring us closer to reality .. to truly understanding what walt whitman was describing .. the one :)
Archmage Atlantis: Well, I have to clean my burned wok so I can finish a very late dinner, ToDaLoo all *smile*
Paradise Tennant: waves at arch .. happy dining
Eos Amaterasu: bye Arch
Calvino Rabeni: I'm getting to appreciate the PaB practice pauses more
Eos Amaterasu: btw, "facilitating" has a slight sense of disengaging
Eos Amaterasu: whereas "leadership" is more engaged, committed
Calvino Rabeni: yes, there has been some talk of that
Calvino Rabeni: I see the distinction
Eos Amaterasu: unless "facilitator" is an ongong role, individual or shared or rotating
Calvino Rabeni: In some of my groups it is a rotating role
Eos Amaterasu: How is that appreciation of PaB pauses, Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: facilitator could also be a participant, fully committed and co-creative
Paradise Tennant: sadly .. I should make tracks in the snow too .. thank you both .. for the wonderful conversation .. I will be hearing walt's words as I settle down to sleep ..:)
Calvino Rabeni: but the disctinction refers to a role
Eos Amaterasu: :-) bye Para
Calvino Rabeni: Glad you were here Paradise, so long for now.
Paradise Tennant: nite nite :)
Calvino Rabeni: Appreciation?
Calvino Rabeni: Ok
Calvino Rabeni: I try to be careful when it feels like habits want to take over the pause
Calvino Rabeni: because when that doesn't happen, I enjoy the experience
Calvino Rabeni: and feel gratitude for it
Eos Amaterasu: the ongoingness of habitual stuff is experiential karma
Eos Amaterasu: is experience of karma
Calvino Rabeni: I probably agree, but have a non-hindu frame for it
Eos Amaterasu: karma as obsessive cause & effect chain
Calvino Rabeni: OK, I can feel the "obsessive" quality, and the chain-ey-ness
Eos Amaterasu: I think the "multitudes" aspect is that stuff happens in the 9 or 90 secs
Calvino Rabeni: But I think of it as a kind of automatic process that goes on if a creative awareness is not brought in
Calvino Rabeni: I become aware if it in the pause, but also outside
Calvino Rabeni: although in the pause it is easier to "drop"
Eos Amaterasu: yea, there's it and there's awareness of it
Eos Amaterasu: just dropping is enough
Calvino Rabeni: the extra attention during the pause helps
Eos Amaterasu: as long as it is not "preventing"
Eos Amaterasu: 'cause that's an effort
Calvino Rabeni: agree
Eos Amaterasu: and artificial
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eos Amaterasu: same in a group
Eos Amaterasu: you want things to come up, but not obsessions about them :-)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, I think I know what you mean
Calvino Rabeni: exactly
Calvino Rabeni: another thing, a facilitator can't necessarily do the same as a "guru" and give advice
Calvino Rabeni: but as a peer participant, perhaps \
Eos Amaterasu: what can a facilitator do?
Calvino Rabeni: It is kind of like (what I consider) one of Pema's ideas for PaB
Calvino Rabeni: that is, a group of people can exchange and help with knowledge
Calvino Rabeni: but with a peer social model, not a hierarchical traditional model
Calvino Rabeni: I think, in facilitation, there is some of that
Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator does not tell people what they should do
Eos Amaterasu: the tricky thing is to be peer-to-peer while respecting that there are distinct roles

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: But can say, "this works for me, and I can tell you others say it works for them"
Calvino Rabeni: An experienced group is often more flexible about the issues of roles and identification
Eos Amaterasu: if you trust each other you can allow roles
Calvino Rabeni: yes, true
Calvino Rabeni: I'm in various groups, they have different needs with respect to that
Eos Amaterasu: which also means authority
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: and structure
Calvino Rabeni: A facilitator can cook something up that the group will find palatable
Eos Amaterasu: is facilitation something you do for a living?
Eos Amaterasu: or are you in a number of groups that use facilitative processes?
Calvino Rabeni: I also respect a facilitator who knows when to recuse themself
Calvino Rabeni: The second is more true. I did some short term facilitation and also in groups that rotate the role. Plus being a long-time observer of group process in various contexts
Calvino Rabeni: Studied psychotherapy
Calvino Rabeni: Did not adopt it as a vocation, however
Calvino Rabeni: I have been to various trainings on it
Calvino Rabeni: How about you Eos, whence your interest in the topic?
Eos Amaterasu: oh, dynamics of groups, group creativity, decision making
Eos Amaterasu: have been in various groups as well, social, technicial, contemplative, cultural
Calvino Rabeni: sounds similar
Calvino Rabeni: Usually in groups, my focus is on those issues, rather than primarily on the content
Eos Amaterasu: my wife directs Alia (Authentic Leadership in Action) Institute, which is about many of these themes
Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, tell me their affiliations?
Eos Amaterasu: Toke Moller has presented Art of Hosting there
Eos Amaterasu: Presencing (Otto Scharmer); World Cafe; etc
Eos Amaterasu: http://www.aliainstitute.org
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, these things have a kind of network of influences
Calvino Rabeni: Crossing paths with other groups
Eos Amaterasu: "authentic leadership" is an attempt at phrasing something like "facilitating leadership" or "servant leadership"
Calvino Rabeni: In the 90's there were actions of varous people who seemed to know each other
Eos Amaterasu: "leader" is a trigger word
Calvino Rabeni: Wheatley, Tom Atlee
Eos Amaterasu: but
Eos Amaterasu: it starts with being leader of yourself :-)
Eos Amaterasu: (back to that inner place and its culitvation)
Calvino Rabeni: Berkana, The Art Of Hosting
Calvino Rabeni: Agree with what you are saying
Eos Amaterasu: Meg Wheatley
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Atlee does the Cointelligence Institute
Calvino Rabeni: In the early 90's there was in internet group called the Transformational Learning Community
Calvino Rabeni: run by a futurist named Robert Theobald
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I was their webmaster and designer, and went to retreats
Eos Amaterasu: I also like Englebart's "augment" project
Eos Amaterasu: which was/is about "improving improvement"
Calvino Rabeni: That's a more technology focus
Calvino Rabeni: But I have always been attracted to "appropriate technology"
Eos Amaterasu: improving the prime mover's (yours) awareness of their role
Eos Amaterasu: in solving "wicked" problems
Calvino Rabeni: Yes all important.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eos Amaterasu: we're in a big field
Calvino Rabeni: and getting bigger.
Eos Amaterasu: I must get to bed....
Eos Amaterasu visualizes a big field of flowers....
Calvino Rabeni: Joanna Macy wrestled with the Wicked problem in the area of environmental activism
Calvino Rabeni: which is an intersting story - for another time
Eos Amaterasu: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Time for dinner.
Eos Amaterasu: Meanwhile, go see Avatar in 3D!
Eos Amaterasu: (great movie)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking it would be good to continue this theme in January, would you be up for it?

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Bye

(continues....)